Oyaoyaoya's Topics (243)

I've read double the number you have read and, although I agree with your sentiment, it is rare to find non-heteronormalized or stereotypical couples in this genre. That is not to say that there are none, but there are few mangaka/publishers/editors who don't push the typical "small, girly uke and the big, manly seme". Nanao Bohra first comes to mind as one mangaka who does not stick to this stereotype. Sadly, heteronormalization is not only common in this genre, it is popular. Not so much in readers on this site, but among the actual buyers of the manga in Japan. When you buy manga, they come with reader survey cards or pages where you are asked which stories you liked and why. Stereotypical, heteronormalized stories survey well in Japan. Mostly because homosexuality is viewed as either fantasy or fetish and not something that is well understood among the general public. Schools do not even touch on the subject of homosexuality and if they do, it is only to condemn it. LGBT groups are thin on the ground, so there is no one to educate the public and the government prefers it that way. Japan is okay with the idea of homosexuality in fantasy or as a fetish, but they are just not ready to accept it as a reality and especially not a reality that can't be overcome or changed. So, if you want a more realistic portrayal of homosexual relationships from Japan, you're going to have to wait until they catch up to the west in their understanding of it. That said, you may be waiting 30 to 50 years, because that is how far behind they are from the west.

What an impressive comment! I didn't expect such an answer on mangago.
I couldn't agree more with you. In my country, lesbians are overall really accepted. But only because of the fact that most men fantasize on those kind of relationship (porn, etc)
So yeah, it makes sense that it is very similar in Japan but the other way around.
I hope it will quickly evoluate :)
(Btw 3K is really impressive!)

Thanks for the compliment. You and your comment struck me as intelligent. So, I felt like it deserved an intelligent response. So many countries are not as educated on this topic as those in the West and many readers are unaware that this is the case. We assume that all countries know what we know because of the internet, but if you don't believe in the boogie man, you're not going to go looking him up online. LOL If people don't know the information even exists, or that the information they have is all there is or all they need, they're not going to look much further. When was the last time you searched for how hard dragon scales are or the recipe for ice cubes? You're not going to search because for the first, you know the creature is a fantasy and you won't get a legitimate answer and for the second, you already know all you need to know. This is how many people in many countries view homosexuality. Their holy books tell them all they need to know. Everything else is heresy or blasphemy. I'd never condemn anyone for it, but I also don't agree with it. A small mind is not a healthy thing to have. We are blessed to live in liberal countries where we are educated and given the opportunity and freedom to be open minded. We can't forget that there are many others who are not as blessed.

For Japan it is less about religion and more about patriotism. Patriotism has driven the traditions of Japan since Kublai Khan drove Chinese clans to the island to become the Japanese. Until as recently as the 1930s, Japan was still under the rule of an Emperor. So, when the government says jump, the Japanese people don't ask, "How high?" They ask if they should come down. The US has been a democracy for over 200 years, but Japan has only been a democracy for about 80 years. It took us just over 100 years before we had our first rebellion against our government - the Civil War. Japan just isn't ready to stand up to its government yet and say, "Wait a second. Are you sure this is the right thing to do?" Politics in Japan, like many countries, tend to be nepotisic. Which also tends to keep prejudices alive and kicking. "Dad was against this so I, as his son, must also be against it." Add staunch conservatism and you have a group of people who fear change more than they fear destruction. Don't get me wrong, I love and admire the Japanese culture, traditions and people, but I am just not a fan of their views on homosexuality. I understand why they think, believe and feel the way they do, I just don't agree with it.

You mention lesbianism being more accepted and it has been throughout history. Women are more affectionate with each other than men are. Seeing two women holding hands is viewed as "sisterly affection" and never looked at with a sideways glance. Women living together, traveling together and congregating together has either been viewed as a matter of safety for them or it is encouraged for the same reason. So, it does have a reason beyond the "typical male fantasy" aspect. This is not encouraging lesbianism, but rather allowing women to be more openly affectionate among themselves, even in platonic situations. Thus, lesbianism appears more accepted, even among hetero females.

I'd love to see Japan start with anti-discrimination laws for sexuality. Allow people to live, work and do business without fear of recrimination for their differences. If that is applied to all legal matters, it would encompass social privileges like marriage. But I have studied the human psyche for almost 30 years and I have learned one hard fact, humans inherently fear change and they won't make changes easily or without some kind of fight. I'd love to be proven wrong on this and see Japan change its policies in my lifetime. However, at my age I have also accepted that that is unlikely. But I'd be happy if my granddaughter witnessed that day.

I could not agree more ! These clices are tiring me out so much! I've read some great stuff that do not include them as well and I apreciate them more!
I never thought about it that way but you are totaly correct! The uke shouldn't be alway the weak one and the seme the strongest ! It's getting boring at this point! (And kinda hints some messages that I do not agree with)

Dark heaven was the only one from my point of view that was really representative of the homosexual community! Please go check it!

I have just returned from a month in Japan and from what I see homosexuality is not repressed or condemned. I have seen gays holding hands in public unreservedly... my hubby saw gays being quite intimate at onsens... i was glad to see yaoi books sold freely at all the bookstores i visited... I agree with you that there is no legal framework to support them if they want marriage or children...but i do not agree with you when you say Japanese need to be educated about LGBT... the majority of japanese know exactly what homosexuality is, they just don't talk about it openly...anyways they don't talk about hetero sex openly either... if i really need to name a few countries where LGBT are really condemned and persecuted: nigeria, russia, many african countries, many arab countries...ironically, even in the US, where there are legal barriers, the level of hate crimes against LGBT is on the rise...if you have to compare with Japan, the number of hate crimes is extremely low...i think Japan is a safe haven for LGBT

That does my heart good to hear! Most of my family and friends are from the Hiroshima area, making the information I glean from them less up-to-date than that you experienced. Thanks for this wonderful update. Maybe my hope to see anti-discrimination laws for sexual orientation will come true sooner than I expected!

It's not related. There are not a lot of crimes overall in Japan, so it's the same for hate crimes against lgbt. You can't compare a country where the crime rate is so high to another one where it's one of the lowest of the world. Anyway,

<3 Hiroshima might still be conservative about LGBT, compared to Osaka or Tokyo where I was. Also according to my gay Japanese friend whose is originally from Hokkaido (based in Germany for last 20yrs), he faced more discrimination in Germany than he ever did in Japan. He is same age as me, in his forties. Except for some verbal bullying from some stupid classmate, he rarely faced discrimination in his hometown. On the other hand, he witness violence and abuse many times just taking the public transport in many cities across Europe. He returns to Hokkaido every year with his boyfriend where they plan to settle once they retire. He is one happy puppy, despite some strained family relationships. I love this couple dearly :)

Thank you very much for the recomandation I'm gonna check it out!

Sadly it’s hard to find any good lgbtq+ manga that shows a good representation of the community. Yaoi is generally written by women for women. It’s the same thing when it comes to yuri too it’s usually written by men for men. It’s also rare to read a yaoi, yuri, shounen ai, or shoujo ai that shows the fears within community. They don’t often show the descrimination or fear that comes with being in a gay relationship or realizing your sexuality. I mean I live in Canada where generally speaking it’s known for being polite and open however I’ve still been descriminated against because of my sexuality. I think it’s a reacurring thing in most queer manga where it’s less fetishizing the sexuality and more romantacizing it. It’s just my opinion though. I’ve heard someone say that some mangakas are changing the way they write yaoi and are actually getting input from lgbtq+ people and their experiences to make it more realistic however I’ve personally never read any articles/heard of any specific mangakas that are doing that. I think with more understanding/time the lgbtq+ genre in manga will slowly keep evolving and changing. I’m just hoping that it changes for the better. It seems to be getting better from my perspective but I’ve also stopped reading into how badly the representation tends to be so my perspective might be pretty clouded.

Tolerance and acceptance are not the same. Tolerance can be a step toward acceptance or it can be a way to avoid it. Saying that hate crimes are low in Japan, as you said, is like saying water is wet. Their culture is based on respect, at least superficially, and politeness. Children are taught to be polite and respect their seniors almost from birth. That said, I think a bigger indicator of the climate for LGBT groups in Japan can be found in the recent law that was passed. It states that if you are transgender and wish to change your gender on your identification, you must submit to sterilization. As long as you make no changes on your government issued identification, you can avoid sterilization. So, good luck having your ID accepted when it says you are male but you have breasts and look like a woman or vice versa. This is a way for the Japanese government to pressure transgender people. Look like the biological sex you were born as or we will make your life difficult. If you push the issue and want to change your ID, we will sterilize you. With a law like that, all the kind smiles to your face are likely to have vicious words being said behind your back. Japan can tolerate homosexuality and transgender, but they are a far, far cry from accepting it.

If you think I am lying, Google "ID changes for transgender in Japan". It should be the first entry. As of Jan. 25, 2019, this law was upheld.

Try Mishima Kazuhiko's newer works, Kou Yoneda, Yukue Moegi, Furuya Nagisa, Yamamoto Kotetsuko, and Ichikawa Kei. All of those mangaka are very talented and the characters, in my opinion, feel nice and real. (Although Mishima-sensei's works are a little wild, but the art style is unique and so is the writing!!) Furuya Nagisa's work is shounen-ai but the stories are lovely, Kou Yoneda has more mature, melancholic, but satisfying stories, and then Yukue Moegi, Yamamamoto Kotetsuko, and Ichikawa kei match the heart of the other stories, but they have a bit more humor with larger casts. I hope this is helpful!!

I agree that tolerance and acceptance are not the same. But I prefer living in a country where they just tolerate me but where i am safe from hate crimes, instead of a country where anti-discrimination laws exists but also hate crimes on the rise. Acceptance is a big word. Like I said, from my own experience and from my friends' experiences, discrimination against LGBT is low in Japan. I did not know about the transgender ID laws but I will definitely check it out soon

I agree that tolerance and acceptance are not the same. But I prefer living in a country where they just tolerate me but where i am safe from hate crimes, instead of a country where anti-discrimination laws exists but also hate crimes on the rise. Acceptance is a big word. Like I said, from my own experience and from my friends' experiences, discrimination against LGBT is low in Japan. I did not know about the transgender ID laws but I will definitely check it out soon

I'm going to assume you are both smart and wise enough to realize that forcing a person to be sterilized is a governmental form of hate crime. And if the government can commit hate crimes openly and with the support of the populace, I am also going to assume you are smart and wise enough to realize that the government - police and court systems - will cover up or evade the issue when it comes to hate crime among the people.

You and those you know have had good experiences. For that, I am both happy and grateful. There is no way I would wish any bad experiences on anyone, even my worst enemy. However, individual experiences, or anecdotal evidence, is not proof of a country's or culture's overall view in regards to any minority. Whether they are LGBT, racial or ableist, an individual's experiences can vary greatly depending on the person. Your friends may be discreet, kind, quiet, generous people who would draw kind, generous and tolerant feelings from others even if they were Africans at a Klan rally or Jews at a Neo-nazi party. On the other hand, I may be an outspoken, brash and blunt lesbian who finds herself bullied or assaulted when visiting her relatives in Japan. This is why anecdotal evidence can not be used as proof of the views held by a country or culture. For every positive experience, there is a negative one. They cancel each other out. The only proof we can use of a country or culture's views are the laws they pass and uphold. You may find an asshole, or a whole herd of assholes, who hate LGBT people here in the US, but you can't be fired from your job, expelled from school, forced into sterilization or evicted from your home without the option to file a lawsuit or criminal charges in defense of your civil liberties. In other words, you have the right to live freely without fear. You can even file charges against any assholes who pick on you and the courts will punish them accordingly. The same can not be said if you live in Japan. If you are LGBT in Japan, you do not exist in the eyes of the law. Heaven forbid you are transgender, then you are something that must be legally eradicated through sterilization. Would you really trade acceptance for tolerance if the price you pay is non-existence or governmental eradication?

It's funny that you mention "hate crimes" in relation to Japan. There are NO hate crimes in Japan at all. Do you know why? It is because there are no protected minorities. A "hate crime" can only occur when the crime involves a protected group or minority. Even if a Chinese or Korean person is brutally assaulted, it is not a hate crime in Japan because they are not protected by law. They do have a "hate speech" law, but have failed to enact it in a practical sense since its passing in 2016. There are no bans on hate speech or penalties for committing it. THAT is tolerance. Japan is trying to look good on paper to the rest of the liberal countries they do extensive business with, but in practical, everyday application, they simply ignore it.

Allow me to conclude by saying I DO NOT HATE JAPAN. I can't agree with, or approve of, the way they treat LGBT minorities, but I do understand why they act this way. Homosexuality has been a part of human existence throughout history, but it has spent more time being viewed as an abomination than it has been accepted or even tolerated. Changing those views is not an easy process and when you throw traditions and religion into the mix, it becomes even more of an uphill battle. Japan has only been a democracy for 80 years or so. It will take more time for them to come out from behind the shadows of their history and traditions. For this reason, I still hold hope. Given enough time and the right influences, Japan can be as accepting of all minorities as any other liberal country in the world. However, to assume that they are such now, is nothing but a lie or a fantasy and one that can be very detrimental. One will not fix what they don't believe to be broken. To move forward to a brighter, accepting tomorrow, we must admit and accept that the Japan of today is imperfect and requires repair. The status quo is not always a good place to be.

OK you've said everything. Now guys let's just stop here.

WOW...lol... that was such a funny emotional outburst...i am not only depending on anecdotal evidence, i actually checked the actual LGBT japanese laws....plz give me some time to at least get the data straight, before hurting your fingers typing so much lol...in fact, most LGBT laws are covered and provided for under Japanese law, except for marriage and adoption which I already mentioned before. As for the controversial transgender law, the supreme court that upheld it already admitted that law was flawed and i have high hopes that it will be reformed in the near future...there are many LGBT represented in japanese politics who will do their best to change that stupid law...in any case for those interested can of course just google Japanese LGBT laws...
No need to mention that you don't hate Japan...i am after all not Japanese...i was just trying to correct a misconception that LGBT are discriminated in Japan and unprotected by law which is NOT the case...in some Tokyo wards, they are even allowed to get married and adopt...so plz, re-update your data and maybe we can debate in a more 'unemotional' manner, without the atrocious adjectives

Yup I sugest you turn off notificatiins because a fire has started and will not end

Dude I'm crying. Since I'm the one who started this (kinda), I'm just gonna say we can't ignore the fact that there is a lot of discrimination in Japan, not as much as in some countries such as China, but well, we can't close our eyes on this issue.
BYE GUYS, Y'ALL VERY HEAVY, I'LL MUTE THIS

I'm an adult, so I will allow her to win this one. I won't respond again, I know when I have met a stubborn fool.

I wasn't even talking about that I was talking about the fact that I did not want to get involved in all this! I hate internet debates and I thought I could learn a bit about some things and then you guys started acting like that to each other! Hope you are happy everyone!

Look just mute the thing there is nothing to gain here ! You will not achieve anything by debating about political stuff from other countries! So Im gonna say possibly the final goodbies to this discussion

I was thinking the same thing. No matter where you go in the world there is going to be discrimination of some kind. No country is perfect, there is always going to people who have different view points and with that comes ignorance and discrimination. Are some countries better than others when it comes to laws and protection? Yes. However just because a country is better than another when it comes to laws and protection doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s free of discrimination. Also the whole sterile transgender people thing has always been inhumane to me and I really hope that changes soon. Anyways, I said my peace. I’m gonna mute now. Bye, I wish you guys the best.

Well this story is about how the boy is small and wants to grow, if you dont like it, fudge off?

Exactly what i did. I'm giving my opinion, if you don't like it, fudge off?

zaza, not sure if you still get the alerts for this thread, but if you do, thank you. Your information was really interesting and makes me look forward to visiting Japan. I understand your point about tolerance compared to acceptance. Given all the options presented, I'd rather live quietly in peace, too, even if it did mean being unacknowledged legally. So long as I'm alive I know there's the opportunity for improvement. :)

Jesus christ its still going

Lel

Omg can I just tell u how impressed I am that you've read over 1500 bls, wth!!

2-3 years in the yaoi craze and I've read over 400 I think

Replying so I can have this post saved.

Furuya Nagisa in particular has very wholesome, sweet stories, and Ichikawa Kei's characters are fun. Occasionally Yoneda Kou's works can get dark, like Twittering Birds Never Fly, but I believe even that is worth a read, even with the characters being a little twisted, mostly because of the circumstances they've gone through. But Furuya Nagisa for a palette cleanser

(Also Kotestuko Yoneda is also very, very fun, along with Natsume Isaku! both have fun characters with unique artsyles!! I like trying to share mangaka I enjoy because they usually are the ones that I trust will have a good story along with good, likable characters! But I prefer fluff so don't mind me...)

The west doesn't seem that progressive regarding their treatment towards lesbians either, people mostly fetishize them and only ever put them in their works as a fanservice.

I can agree to that....

Yes; without question.

Hells yeah!

Yup

I wish I could forget the story just to have the opportunity to read it all over again (￣∇￣")

I know right!!!

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa I so wanna do that with Me and Love Mode

*not Me Ze

what I would give to read these three again for the first time