So recently I got in an argument with someone about this and I'm curious what other people who read BL think. Almost every manga/manwha I've ever read with sex scenes has the uke crying/nervous and says no all the time mid scene I don't consider this to be assault because it isn't treated as such by the authors and is never mentioned again after the scene I know how to separate real life from comics so obviously if it were a real life situation it would be assault but I'm talking about fictional gay men.
In my case, it depends on the context. If it began as non-con then the sex scene would be seen as rape but if it were the opposite, I would just think of it as whining (to some) or an act of over stimulus where the uke can't handle the over penetration caused by the seme.
It depends. Some seme actually listened and stop which always caught me off guard (lol) but to me, "no" or "stop" is kinda like "let me take a breather" unless it's in cases where it's painfully obvious it meant "I don't want this".
In my case, it depends on the context. If it began as non-con then the sex scene would be seen as rape but if it were the opposite, I would just think of it as whining (to some) or an act of over stimulus where... Quite the stranger
But if it were to happen in rl, then there is no doubt it could be an assault, but the borderline between them is that it is purely fictional. (There are morals you cannot apply here in this community because it is purely FICTIONAL.)
The authors design their works to be like that, in hopes to garner attention/popularity where these things became the norm in these particular community.
Me personally, I hate that shit. I know the authors don’t tend for it to be seen as assault but it just makes me very uncomfortable. I tend to avoid stories with those scenes which has severely limited my reading pool lol. Whenever I ask for recs I even specify “NOT where one of the parties is saying no or stop during sex” and ppl still recommend me stories with that, because it’s so ingrained in yaoi fandom that ppl don’t even register it as noncon/dubcon.
Hey, so this "I know fiction vs reality" is a convinient excuse. Applying different logic to different scenarios because it's fiction vs reality is being selective. It wouldn't work to say "I can separate fiction vs reality and that is not really incest because yeah he started dating his own mom but this is a fictional story. The author writes characters dating family all the time, and isn't treated like taboo. In real life, obviously it would be incest but what do you guys think?" you know? You could argue it like the court of law whether something is and isn't something else, but fiction vs reality, doesn't exactly count as one of those reasons.
Based on your overall stance since you know this is assault by regular people's standard, if you wanted to say fiction vs reality, you'd be better off to say this is fictional rape and I can enjoy it because it isn't real. Still wouldn't be good but makes way better sense imo.
The bigger issue here isn't whether someone considers assault to be assault or not, by fiction vs reality standard or whatever standard, the issue here is the author has normalized you so much to the point you think it being fictional means it's not assault.
I do agree fiction has it's own rules, but that's more in terms of world/character building. Fantasy stories where there's different species who live by different rules can say, hey, my people are elves and elves say hello by kicking you in the nuts. In that world, kicking someone in the nuts would then not be considered physical assault, but a greeting. Unless explicitly stated in that fictional story, saying no means yes and he enjoys it, you'd still have to follow reality rules, even if its a fictional story. All media works this way. What is and isn't rape, what is and isn't incest, what is and isn't robbery, etc., can only be determined by what you know based on reality because those stories are fictional but they are still following the rules of reality.
In this case, I agree with whoeever you're arguing with. Those bottoms were being assaulted and coerced to do something against their will. Keep reading it if you enjoy it, lots of people read messed up things, but using fiction as a shield to deny and excuse it, is weird.
Hey, so this "I know fiction vs reality" is a convinient excuse. Applying different logic to different scenarios because it's fiction vs reality is being selective. It wouldn't work to say "I can separate ficti... jigus juicy tits in my mouth
I wasn't trying to make up an excuse I'm sorry came off that way!! I realize after I made this question that I'm more so looking for an answer based off the certain manga I was arguing about and I should have added that into my question I do agree with you though that anything can be made legal/okay in an author's universe because it is exactly that THEIR universe I have read manwha with SA which has been stated to be SA by the characters or the creator as everyone here has given their opinion to me I realize I was rather vague and my question was not what I thought it was I should have asked does everyone still consider it SA if its not explicitly said or mentioned again which I assume everyone's answers would still stay pretty much the same either way I fear I worded this poorly
So recently I got in an argument with someone about this and I'm curious what other people who read BL think. Almost every manga/manwha I've ever read with sex scenes has the uke crying/nervous and says no all the time mid scene I don't consider this to be assault because it isn't treated as such by the authors and is never mentioned again after the scene I know how to separate real life from comics so obviously if it were a real life situation it would be assault but I'm talking about fictional gay men.
In my case, it depends on the context. If it began as non-con then the sex scene would be seen as rape but if it were the opposite, I would just think of it as whining (to some) or an act of over stimulus where the uke can't handle the over penetration caused by the seme.
It depends. Some seme actually listened and stop which always caught me off guard (lol) but to me, "no" or "stop" is kinda like "let me take a breather" unless it's in cases where it's painfully obvious it meant "I don't want this".
But if it were to happen in rl, then there is no doubt it could be an assault, but the borderline between them is that it is purely fictional. (There are morals you cannot apply here in this community because it is purely FICTIONAL.)
The authors design their works to be like that, in hopes to garner attention/popularity where these things became the norm in these particular community.
It's a trope -simple as that.
Especially if, as you say, the narrative never address it: because it's not meant to be anything more than that.
Me personally, I hate that shit. I know the authors don’t tend for it to be seen as assault but it just makes me very uncomfortable. I tend to avoid stories with those scenes which has severely limited my reading pool lol. Whenever I ask for recs I even specify “NOT where one of the parties is saying no or stop during sex” and ppl still recommend me stories with that, because it’s so ingrained in yaoi fandom that ppl don’t even register it as noncon/dubcon.
For anyone wondering specifically what this was about it was about the sex scene between hiiragi and his bf from given (๑°ᯅ° ๑｀)
Hey, so this "I know fiction vs reality" is a convinient excuse. Applying different logic to different scenarios because it's fiction vs reality is being selective. It wouldn't work to say "I can separate fiction vs reality and that is not really incest because yeah he started dating his own mom but this is a fictional story. The author writes characters dating family all the time, and isn't treated like taboo. In real life, obviously it would be incest but what do you guys think?" you know? You could argue it like the court of law whether something is and isn't something else, but fiction vs reality, doesn't exactly count as one of those reasons.
Based on your overall stance since you know this is assault by regular people's standard, if you wanted to say fiction vs reality, you'd be better off to say this is fictional rape and I can enjoy it because it isn't real. Still wouldn't be good but makes way better sense imo.
The bigger issue here isn't whether someone considers assault to be assault or not, by fiction vs reality standard or whatever standard, the issue here is the author has normalized you so much to the point you think it being fictional means it's not assault.
I do agree fiction has it's own rules, but that's more in terms of world/character building. Fantasy stories where there's different species who live by different rules can say, hey, my people are elves and elves say hello by kicking you in the nuts. In that world, kicking someone in the nuts would then not be considered physical assault, but a greeting. Unless explicitly stated in that fictional story, saying no means yes and he enjoys it, you'd still have to follow reality rules, even if its a fictional story. All media works this way. What is and isn't rape, what is and isn't incest, what is and isn't robbery, etc., can only be determined by what you know based on reality because those stories are fictional but they are still following the rules of reality.
In this case, I agree with whoeever you're arguing with. Those bottoms were being assaulted and coerced to do something against their will. Keep reading it if you enjoy it, lots of people read messed up things, but using fiction as a shield to deny and excuse it, is weird.
I wasn't trying to make up an excuse I'm sorry came off that way!! I realize after I made this question that I'm more so looking for an answer based off the certain manga I was arguing about and I should have added that into my question I do agree with you though that anything can be made legal/okay in an author's universe because it is exactly that THEIR universe I have read manwha with SA which has been stated to be SA by the characters or the creator as everyone here has given their opinion to me I realize I was rather vague and my question was not what I thought it was I should have asked does everyone still consider it SA if its not explicitly said or mentioned again which I assume everyone's answers would still stay pretty much the same either way I fear I worded this poorly