Fei and Tao

I'm agree with you.The matter is there are people that just see that part of the story (Finder no Rakuin) as being important only for the sexual triggers it can offer, and don't consider the useful imformation that story has to complete the vision of the all Finder story. For me Fei Long's novel offers the reader mainly two possible endings: A sexual story with Tao ( the sickest of all endings) and a future love story with Yoh (the healthiest of all endings). Another possible ending can be Tao and Feilong going through the darkness of their existence hand in hand as a father and a son.

What you miss is that it doesn't matter what you think. What matters is what Tao thinks and Tao obviously doesn't see Fei as his father or his uncle or anything other than another man he is attracted to. You can list all the examples you want of how it seems that Fei considers Tao family, but it very clearly wasn't obvious enough that Tao feels he is Fei's child. To argue otherwise is to accuse Tao of having unnatural feelings.

And LadyLigeia, there are far far sicker endings possible than two biologically unrelated people eventually establishing a romantic relationship. Come on.

Does it matter at all what Fei thinks? Wouldn't both people have to be on the same page about that?

Also, why does biology matter if it's two men? Would you have a problem with this pairing if they were biologically related? Would Tao?

Would it be "unnatural" for a child to have a crush on a relative--or might it be kind of common and something we are socialized out of expressing (as Freud suggested)?

You are making the argument that it is clear that Tao has been raised as Fei's child or nephew. I am saying that is not how Tao sees it and therefore, it cannot be considered inappropriate from his POV.

As for biology, I'm not the one getting all squicked out over incest, but that is the technical definition of incest, regardless of gender.

I am making the case that *Fei* sees Tao as his nephew, and how Fei sees it should count.

Furthermore, do you really think Tao sees himself as Fei's "servant"? I don't think Tao thinks he is the hired help. Crush aside, how do you think Tao sees Tao's role in Fei's life (not what Tao wants it to be, but how Tao thinks it is)? Do you think when little Tao has a nightmare, he is trying to seduce the adult whose bed he runs to? If not, wouldn't the person Tao runs to most likely be the parental figure of a child?

I am not squicked out. I have repeatedly said I do not have anything against fictional incest or a Fei/Tao pairing. I am merely asserting that if it happens, it will be an uncle-nephew pairing. You are the one calling that "unnatural". I am just saying they are family, but in yaoi that doesn't mean they can't have sex.

Merriam-Websters defines incest as "Sexual intercourse between people who are very closely related." It doesn't specify that they be blood-related. Legally, since Fei was adopted by Tao's grandfather, Fei is Yan's brother and Tao's uncle. Those are just facts. But fictional incest is fine, so there is no reason why this would be a problem for Fei/Tao shippers.

Again, if fictional incest is okay, would it matter if say, we found out Fei's bio-dad was doing Yan's mom and Fei was a blood relative? What would change? Both Tao and Fei would still feel exactly the way they feel now.

And we're going in circles. Fei's POV has no bearing on how Tao feels. If Tao does not feel the relationship is too close for romance it is because that was how he was raised and therefore, the relationship is not too close for romance. Running to someone when you have a nightmare is hardly the definition of family.

So factually, Fei was adopted by Tao's grandfather. But he simply has not raised Tao in that knowledge or in the role as his nephew. At no point does Fei refer to Tao as his child or his nephew. At no point does Tao refer to Fei as his uncle or his father. He only ever refers to him as "Master Fei." They are not related. Their relationship is outside traditional familial bonds. There is no incest.

Yes, you are right. The point for me isn't the pairing of two persons related by family (and not related by blood), but the fact that nobody takes into consideration Fei Long's feelings about that and gives too much importance to the (possible) first crush of a teenager person. Who knows if Tao will feel in the same way becoming an adult?

I think right now, Fei and Tao are the only family either one of them has got. Regardless of the outcome of Tao's crush, I think the two of them have a bond that is deeper than romance or sex. Some families are formed by blood, and others by choice. I've seen more family behavior between the two of them on the page than I have seen with any other characters in this story. I think every way that matters, Fei sees Tao as family.

The central question here is what makes a family. Suppose Tao got over his crush and developed deeper feelings for a boy his own age. Do you think Tao would leave Fei and forget Fei existed? Or do you think Tao has a bond of some kind with Fei the pre-dates his crush and would survive the crush ending?

Yes, their bond is deeper. :)

You are defining what family means to *you* not what it might mean to Fei and definitely not what it means to Tao. If it was you in this situation, that's fine. But it's not you. It's them, and they are not defining family in the same way.

And just because you have bonded with someone doesn't make you family. Still caring about someone when stronger feelings have ended is not proof of family.

What is your evidence the Fei does not think of Tao as family?

I can't prove he does any more than you can prove the opposite. We can only go by what's on the page. You are seeing it through your filter of what represents family but for me, I see nothing more than a man caring for a child he has taken in. That doesn't equal family to me. I have yet to see Fei refer to Tao in any way that says clearly "This is my family."

OK. Now that Yan is dead, if Fei were to die without a will, who do you think should legally inherit the bulk of Fei's estate? And if Fei has a will, who do you think will inherit the bulk of Fei's assets?

Why do you think Fei chose to take in this particular child?

You can leave your estate to anyone. That's not proof. (Really, this is still all speculation. We not being privy to Fei's will and all.) And would any self-respecting mafia head leave a pawn that could be used against him to the whim of fate? Still doesn't prove there's a family bond here.

Let's try logic. In the novella, we are told that Fei is reluctant to have Yoh kill Yan because Fei thinks of Yan as Fei's brother. We later learn that Fei has always known Tao was Yan's son but that Fei wanted to keep that secret for Tao's sake. So, If Fei thinks of Yan as Fei's brother, and Fei knows Tao is Yan's son, it follows that Fei thinks of Tao as Fei's....?

QED

You're still arguing only Fei's side. You got nothing for Tao and it's Tao who is pursuing a relationship because Tao does not see Fei as a father or uncle or any other kind of family figure because Tao has never felt that Fei is his family. One might almost say it would be LOGICAL to assume that is because Tao was not raised as family, whatever Fei may think or know.

So we're agreed Fei thinks of Tao as his nephew? Good.

Now is it possible that Tao could have romantic feelings for someone who is also his family?

I'm butting in and I'm not into the pairing, even less into incest, but why not?

I mean, some people might not see it as that much of a turn off as others. I knew a girl that flirted lots and I think went out with her step-brother when we were in high school... I mean, at the end of the day siblings are still humans that can be attractive, only you're supposed to have another type of relationship with them according to society.

Society make us think that some things are wrong or bad without making us think twice about it. It's kind of like the vegan matter, people eat meat without thinking twice about it their whole lifetime, and just think vegans are extremely wierd for doing what they do (basically being empathic).

Well I guess it's subjective, but yeah, what I mean is that certainly not everyone is unable to have romantic feelings for a member of their family.

:) You can butt in anytime. I think it's particularly possible in yaoi.