This is basically PRETTY PRIVILEGE final boss ... Oh!!!! the ml is so hot and funny ....so...

you're right, morality is already a part of the conversation, but my point is how their story isn't meant to be a moral competition between them. I get that the double standards exist, and that it's frustrating(I've explained my take in this before, but it kept getting brought up, unfortunately). but at the same time, the story itself isn't even about proving who's the better person between them, is it? it's how both of them, flawed as they are, grow together. that's why I don't want to approach it as a debate over who wins in terms of morality, ratger I look at it as how their past shape them and their relationship.

it honestly feels like my points keep getting overlooked because the focus is only on the parts that fit a specific narrative. I've been consistent in explaining my perspective as a manwha adaptation reader, yet instead of engaging with that, there's a repeated push to frame my argument in a way that suits the idea that Ines is beyond redemption. if the intent is to hate Ines, then of course, nothing I say will never make sense to you because we're coming from completely different mindsets.

and look at you, justifying infidelity as rebellion against rejection? please, he still chose that path. that doesn't remove personal responsibility. even if he was hurt, his actions wasn't forced onto him. not harming anyone doesn't mean his actions were good, just that they weren't intentionally cruel. being a "good person" overall doesn't negate the fact that he engaged in a behavior that readers find problematic. "always a good person" contradicts the idea that he had flaws and room for growth, tbh.

you lean to much on excusing Carcel's choices while expecting me/us to criticize Ines more harshly. I wasn't trying to shift the conversation to their relationship as a couple. I just wanted to highlight the fact that their dynamic is one of mutual change ratger than one-sided growth.

you exaggerate my point to suit your claim. I never meant to say that Ines changed Carcel for the better outright. what I meant is that Ines (may) also influence change in Carcel, even if it's subtle. just because it's not as obvious to you as Carcel helping Ines heal, that doesn't make it nonexistent. growth doesn't always have to be dramatic, it doesn't always need to be directly implied. growth can be found in small shifts in behavior, perspective, and even emotional connection. influence doesn't have to be loud just for it to be real.

and please do consider that most of the readers who calls Carcel "trash" could be someone who probably hasn't even reached chapter 20. just because they called him trash from their manhwa-reader perspective, doesn't mean all manhwa readers feel that way. maybe we did, but we know more about Carcel now to call him trash because we have progressed with the story. where in this argument did I ever call him a trash in present tense? none, cause I already believe otherwise. and this is what I'm trying to say. you claim the adaptation to be biased, why, because more readers hate Carcel ratger than Ines? please note that comments under this manhwa here are often made real-time, and does not indicate where they are in the story.

did anyone ever said that Ines is a "good person" outright? probably, no. but did anyone ever explained why Ines is the way she is? yes, because of the context. which you adamantly dismiss because trauma doesn't sound valid to you.

It’s truly so telling and blatant how you justified everything Ines did through the lens of her trauma saying how much you understand why she did what she did even though you can understand objectively that she did wrong but she deserves compassion and understanding. That is effectively what you have been saying as though her trauma washes away her sins. Then when it comes to Carcel, there is absolutely no understanding but just blame and accusation that I am justifying his bad behavior. I tried to explain what any teenage boy now and back then would feel in the situation and it was already explained in the story itself. But no….none of you readers can understand his behavior so you only condemn him and accuse him.

This is exactly why novel readers know there are only one or two manhwa fans who like Carcel or understand Carcel for himself. They just like Carcel maybe because the manhwa portrays him as Ines’s simp dog. Thank you so much for proving our point. Furthermore, it is not that I didn’t understand or agree with some of your points. It’s not that I blame Ines for all of her bad choices but I used them to show exactly what you proved. She is lifted up by manhwa readers as good and NEVER held accountable for anything just like your long paragraphs prove. As a matter of fact, i highly doubt you thought that she needs to redeem herself like Carcel. A woman who has been plotting against him for 17 years, after all, is unaccountable in the eyes of manhwa readers because her trauma, her desperation, her holy motives… You name it, Ines is excused for it because she has no malice in her heart they say. Wow. Talk about no accountability whatsoever. Spoken like true inveterate fans of Ines that frames all her bad actions under understanding why she behaves that way, why she needs compassion and therefore exonerates her of any accountability and wrongdoing. I would say the manhwa is doing such a great job of excusing her when the novel held her accountable for her actions.

No, there are many readers like the one who started this post who claim they cannot forgive Carcel for his premarital lifestyle. Some of your comments suggest you also can relate to them. No need to pretend. I read comments and I see them all the time. Couple novel readers and I do discuss some of the comments on here and we often agree that there is only maybe three TRUE Carcel fans here. There is one I look out for all the time because she often asks questions about Carcel as a person without Ines. The rest we can see only likes Carcel as a simp that the manhwa has made him into rather than the three-dimensional man the novel portrays.

Indeed the manhwa is biased. Even the novel author, Kim ChaCha acknowledged it:

Hello Fan:

I fully understand what you mean.

But cartoons have limited scenes. That's what might be included.

Perhaps that's why, unlike the novel, Ines' selfish purpose was not emphasized. I am also sad that only carcel has become a bad character unilaterally.

I think they're both flawed people, and they're both bad people. To each other. They are selfish in different ways. Even when they were young, Ines overwhelmingly did. In the past life, too.

So in the early days when the novel was serialized, Ines was also criticized a lot. If carcel is the man who betrayed his fiancee her, Ines is the woman who used her young fiance.

I think that the two main characters are both imperfect people. And I think they are a perfect couple who can fill in each other's imperfections. No matter who blames them, each other is the best option for them. The journey to show it was my novel.

Your words:

I think about how Carcel said in one of their banters before marriage that he'll leave his debauched lifestyle once they're married. and he kept his word. we aren't excusing infidelity here, Carcel was a trash.

————

Right, you said Carcel was trash which is not surprising from a person who has zero understanding of his feelings but writes long paragraphs about understanding Ines who similarly dubcon a complete stranger while very much engaged and set to marry soon. Apparently girls in desperation only have ONE resort/escape and it’s to get on top of a stranger’s genitalia. Seems only a few girls would think of running away on their own or with a loyal and trustworthy maid. But that’s okay because manhwa readers understand Ines had no malice in her heart and only desperation so she deserves their compassionate understanding. Spoken like true Ines fans.

Somehow I feel vindicated. There are so few true Carcel fans and true Ines/Carcel fans for the manhwa but so many of them for the novel. They already quit this manhwa after some even boldly tweeted the manhwa storyteller about her biased adaptation. So all the manhwa have left now are Ines simps or fans who like that she has a simp dog who would do anything for her. It’s really pretty sad to see as a novel reader.

Regarding influence, she’s always testing him and she is always the hardest on him. Imagine that. Even harder on him than Oscar. Maybe that’s why some novel readers come to vent on BR novel forums after they finish reading the story and start a debate that Ines doesnt deserve Carcel. Some of those readers also had a problem with the fact that Carcel only loved Ines in this story while she fell for two other men. Novel readers see and know everything about the respective characters because we know their thoughts. Koreans even complained that the author leaves no room for imagination because of this.

So, yes, Ines does influence Carcel but not necessarily in the right way until she herself began to change to become a better person because of Carcel’s influence. Novel has that early in this life, she was lovebombing him to scare him off as a little boy. Then when he didn’t scare anymore because he was a bit older, she employed different tactics to prevent him from falling for her. She gladly wore black clothes to worsen her reputation solely with the purpose that other young nobles should remind Carcel that he’s too good for her and he should seek love elsewhere. Yes, homegirl had this whole elaborate plan going just so Carcel wouldn’t fall for her. But her fans will definitely justify her through the lens of her trauma. Oh boy so it’s even pointless to know this for fans who justify her in everything. Well, just keep reading the story through lens that justify everything she did in the past, present and future.

To Ines’s inveterate fans who has great compassion and understanding for her and justifies everything she does, here is preview of the scheme she employed against trashy Carcel from the time he was potentially a trashy young kid until he bloomed into the trashy teenager she always hoped for to garner a trashy husband for her divorce plans which she discussed as a 12 year old girl with lawyers who visited Perez:

———————————-

She had been scheming to get Cárcel to cheat on her for her whole lifetime. She downplayed her attractiveness by wearing black dresses. When others remarked that only women who were “mourning, living as a nun, or had become clinically insane” would wear black dresses, she smirked in delight. She matched the drab frocks with boring buns or braids.

She had kept this disinterested and uninteresting identity in front of everyone not just Cárcel. The whole world needed to remind Cárcel that she was never enough for him. She needed to ensure that he would not have a sudden change of heart one day. She did not want him to ever be intrigued by her even for a split second.

Inés had grown a sizable ego from her past experiences. She worried that Cárcel would fall for her at least once in their long relationship. To hide her charms and her decent face, she needed to be careful to choose the least attractive outfits and avoid all makeup. Once she stripped naked, she wouldn’t be able to hide behind the ugly clothes though. A sigh escaped her throat at the mere thought.

Thus, she resolved to be extra careful. She had to keep associating herself with all the boring and ugly things in his mind. She would continue to exhaust him with her suffocating attitude, gaze and outfit. Back when he feared her the most, she sent him an overwhelming amount of presents and letters to scare him off. He didn’t panic immediately as she expected. Still, she did manage to send him off to military academy and navy army in fear of marriage.

Inés would eventually have to marry into his family even if he tried to ignore her for many years. Their betrothal was inevitable — no wonder he was stricken with fear. Inés wanted to seize this chance and get him to be so stressed about their imminent marriage that he had no choice but to cheat on her when they did marry.

Until their marriage ceremony, she planned to make him feel less guilty about cheating.

you keep insisting that I 'justify' Ines while 'condemning' Carcel, but if you actually read what I said, you'd realize I've been consistent in my stance toward both characters. I acknowledged that Ines has made questionable decisions and that her trauma only explains her actions, it does not excuse them. the difference is that the manhwa itself chooses to emphasize different aspects of each character's flaws. if Ines' internal monologues and selfishness were more present, I would fully acknowledge them. but they aren't. that's not on me.

you accuse me of not applying understanding to Carcel, but I never said he didn't deserve it. I literally said I/we recognized his change and accepted him as he is, but that doesn't mean his past is automatically justified. you want me to acknowledge that his behavior was natural for a teenage boy, sure, I hear you. but then apply that same logic to the 16-year-old Ines, who had just woken up from a horrific past life and ran to the first person who could take her away from the same fate. you're upset that people struggle to forgive Carcel for cheating, but at the same time, you want us to endlessly condemn Ines for her past decisions. make it make sense.

"manhwa readers never hold Ines accountable"really? if anything, manhwa readers are waiting for her atonement and her realization of her own faults(well, at least I am). the difference is that I see it as a natural progression, not something that needs to be immediately forced onto her character. saying she hasn't been 'held accountable' yet isn't the same as saying she never will be.

and about this so-called 'three true Carcel fans' comment lol it's telling that you think people only 'truly' like Carcel if they only care about him as an individual. this story isn't just about Carcel. it's about both him and Ines, and people are allowed to appreciate him as part of that dynamic. the fact that you believe novel readers have some superior understanding of his character just because they had more of his individual perspective is exactly the kind of elitism that makes these discussions frustrating. you claim to respect both characters, yet dismiss anyone who enjoys Carcel's character without hating Ines, bfr.

regarding the author's comments. yes, they acknowledged that the manhwa doesn't emphasize Ines' selfishness as much. but even in that very statement, they make it clear that both characters are flawed, selfish, and deeply imperfect. they don't paint Carcel as some tragic victim of misrepresentation, nor do they frame Ines as a saint. what they highlight is that the manhwa had to make adaptation choices due to limited space. that's not proof of 'bias,' that's just the reality of storytelling constraints. you act like this quote is some kind of 'gotcha' moment, but all it really does is reinforce what I've been saying all along. the way the story is framed changes how readers perceive the characters. that's not the same as fans blindly excusing Ines and condemning Carcel.

what I see is that you seem more interested in proving that manhwa fans are incapable of understanding Carcel than actually engaging with what we're saying. but if you're going to argue about accountability, make sure you apply it evenly. if Carcel deserves patience and understanding for his flaws, so does Ines. if the manhwa made adaptation choices that affect perception, that's a discussion, not evidence of malicious intent. and if your only definition of a 'true Carcel fan' is someone who ignores Ines completely... well, that says more about your bias than mine.

and you know, it's honestly baffling that you keep going on about the novel, especially when I've been consistently clear that I'm speaking as a manhwa reader. it's like you're completely disregarding my point of view and trying to drag this into a debate I never signed up for. I don't care about your novel-based arguments because I'm talking about how the manhwa is framed. you act like I'm some Ines "simp," but I've acknowledged her flaws more than enough, what I'm not doing is excusing her actions based on your interpretation of them.

the fact that you're ignoring that the manhwa frames things differently is a clear attempt to discredit my stance. if you want to drag Ines down for every single decision, that's on you, but don't act like the manhwa is giving me a full picture to do the same. I don't see her as perfect, and I've never claimed that. but you're too busy hating on her for everything, and that's just plain exhausting. why don't you try acknowledging that maybe, just maybe, your hatred for Ines is clouding your view of the bigger picture?

I get it, you're stuck on the novel's portrayal of her, but guess what? it's not the same thing. the manhwa shows her flaws, but it doesn't go as deep into her psychology, and that changes everything. so don't try to force the same judgment I should apply to a version of her that doesn't even exist in the manhwa. you've got a vendetta against her, and it's clear you're using every excuse to twist her actions into something worse than they are. I see right through that.

and if I have to be like you just to be considered as a 'true fan,' I don't want it. I am entitled to have a nuanced perspective that recognizes the complexity of both Ines and Carcel, regardless of what others try to label me.

Even if just the manhwa alone, I wouldn't call him cheating or "an abomination" because if he was forced to an engagement he doesn't want and can't get out of and had tried to get close to her before but she's the one who kept turning her away, then he has every right to do whatever he wants. People always excuse the fls. They say the same about Serena before how she can do whatever she want with Friedrick because she was forced to marry someone. Carcel got more reason to do whatever he wants when the person who ppl keep saying he cheated on was Ines the person who manipulated him and wanted him to sleep around so it's cheating if the partner you're forced to be with wants and lets you sleep around now?

You haven't acknowledged her flaws at all. Ppl like you think of her trauma as her flaws so they use her flaws as an excuse for her actions instead. They nvr blamed her for forcing the engagement on Carcel even when he never wanted it. They say why can't Carcel cancel the engagement then but didn't even know that the empress was the one who put them together so that's like going against the empress and his parents and family couldn't, and also like Ines was the one using the empress to force it on Carcel but no one mentioned that either. They never blamed her for turning him away when he tried to get close. Instead they say he should try harder bc she was traumatized and sick at that time, but he doesn't know that so why should he have to be put in the position to try harder to get closer?

So true. Readers are the one who care more about Carcel's premarital lifestyle than Ines ever will and readers are also the one who pretend to know Ines and go boohoo I feel so bad for you for having such a trashy fiancee who cheated on you while Ines is like OMG PLS CHEAT SLEEP AROUND ALRDY!

please, don't make me laugh. you're bending definitions to suit your stance. you're telling me that he wasn't cheating because he was "forced" into the engagement and because Ines "let him" sleep around? do you even hear yourself? if your logic is that being forced into a relationship means you can sleep with other people, then why is Ines' behavior in her past life unacceptable to you? and before you assume, I'm not claiming her innocent at all. okay, so Carcel tried to get close, yes, but you're acting like he was some tragic victim when he chose to move on by sleeping around. he wasn't forced to do anything. he made a decision. just like how Ines made decisions(ones that you refuse to see as anything but pure manipulation even though her pain is laid out in front of you). their difference? you want the guy excused, and the woman accountable.

'people like me'? like what? tell me. you want me to acknowledge Ines' flaws? sure. she manipulated the situation to secure the engagement, manipulated Carcel, and intentionally tried to push him away. I never denied that, but consider the fact that she's yet to acknowledge them herself, what she does when she does is up for discussion, but not right now. don't even try to come at me with your full list of evil things she's done in the novel. I acknowledged it, I just didn't criticize her the way you want me to. and no, ffs, do you think of other people's trauma as their flaw? when did I ever suggest that? like what I've been saying, trauma is the cause, the context, the explanation why we are so patient with her, not why she's free of accountability.

I won't even get into details of this engagement fiasco, I just know that Ines may have manipulated the situation, she did not force anything. the power ultimately lies with the empress, if she did truly forced it, then Carcel and his family wouldn't have been that powerless against it.

sorry, not sorry, but I'm through with you, 'true carcel fans'. think what you want. I'm so done explaining myself to people who are dead set on arguing while refusing to actually listen. if you really want us to 'change' our perception of Carcel's premarital lifestyle, at least make a convincing case instead of just twisting our words. ffs, calling him an 'abomination' and 'trash' is in past tense because I was talking about a guy who was caught 'CHEATING', to when he was 'CHEATING.' Idfk how you can't understand that CHEATING is a big deal irl, and especially in fiction. oh, don't even get me started with Ines' crimes here. the cheating scene came at the very first episode, and comments here as I've said, are made in real time, which I've taken into consideration before responding. I merely exaggerated my words, because I never thought I would be pulled in this kind of argument at all. Carcel extremists

His actions is based on her action. Would he have been called a cheater if she didn't forced him into an engagement? He would've just been called a playboy just like every other lives that she thought she knew him and that would've been no issue. She knew him as a playboy from previous lives. She chose him specifically bc of that. She manipulated him to act that way bc of her own wrong assumptions of him. She made decisions without thinking about others just as he made his own decision without thinking about others but you are claiming her innocence instead of his. You think her reasoning for her actions is better than his reason so you don't think she did any wrong.

Ines knows the empress well. She knew the empress would enforce it. You put the blame on the empress for enforcing it but it was Ines who was behind it. She told her father she wanted to marry Carcel. She didn't tell her father that without any thought. Ines always knew the empress wanted her family's power. The empress is Carcel's aunt. The empress also hated Ines as a daughter in law and nvr wanted her to marry her own son Oscar but she would gladly marry Ines to Carcel to bind their family together. Ines knew all that. She used the empress to enforce it on their families and Carcel. Carcel's family is powerless bc the emperor is always untrustful of their family. He married the empress but don't trust her family. He's always testing them and later you'll see that more when Miguel's own fiancee dies and empress tried to force Miguel to marry her stepdaughter and Carcel will be forced to go to war just to prove his family's loyalty to the throne so that Miguel don't have to marry the stepdaughter. His family don't have that much power against the royal family.

You think cheating is a big deal irl but if Ines exist irl she wouldn't even think of Carcel's action as cheating. You ppl always like to put thoughts and insert yourself into fictional relationships but not even thinking about the characters and the stories' situation. Was Ines hurt by Carcel's action? Did Ines think of it as cheating? Did she even care if he slept around? You think he was "caught cheating?" She purposely went there to pretend she caught him so that she can make him feel guilty and rush their marriage.

This was from the novel https://www.novelupdatesforum.com/posts/7038672/

At a time when he was frightened of her for a long time, Inés had spent a few years sending extreme love letters and gifts to the point where he was terrified. She made him overwhelmed by the pressure so he would run away and spread their distance on his own. (She lovebombed him.)

In those days, Cárcel did not run away as easily as she thought, but it was clear that there had been some progress. Eventually later on, she was afraid of getting married, and she made him go circles when he was in the military academy and the navy. (He did tried to get close to her and she made him run in circles.)

Nevertheless, the more inevitable time had arrived, and his fiancée, whom Cárcel Escalante was said to be ‘negligent’ with would finally enter the Escalante household. It couldn’t help but be fearful for him.

Nevertheless, at the beginning, she would hardly be able to do anything else. So she was willing to release the reins in advance. She intended to make him feel guilty as much as possible. Because they had to get married, and he had to have an affair. (She was purposely there in Prologue to make him feel guilty to rush the marriage.)

Cárcel Escalante would be under so much stress that he had finally gotten married to someone whose marriage he had been postponing, thus of course he had to have an affair.

LMAO HAHAHAHAHA a wise man once said, "cheating isn't cheating if the 'victim' doesn't care." what a wild take. by that logic, stealing isn't stealing if the owner has enough money. you're bending reality to excuse Carcel while blaming Ines for everything. the mental gymnastics are crazy. anyway, have fun with your echo chamber.

you've really proven my point. it's honestly impressive how confidently you argue while completely missing the point. you twist words, contradict yourself, and move goalposts. I'd break it down for you again, but seeing as you struggle with basic comprehension is already exhausting. if this is the best you've got, I'd just be wasting my time. enjoy twisting reality to fit your narrative. must be nice living in a world where logic doesn't apply.