if they end up together it’d be like the epitome of a lavender marriage. only getting t...

The delusion is astounding

it’s practically canon for lily and diana. there’s also no straight explanation as to why felix’s other relationships didn’t work out because he preferred to stay latched to claude’s hip instead, his love and care for him has been apparent from the start. the only reason he has interest in lily is because she’s likely the only woman to not question it, and the only reason lily “saw” felix for the first time was because he was the first person to be chill about her massive love for diana, she felt accepted for the first time.

any forced straight romance here would be more delusional, seeing as they have literally nothing to work with.

Girl he’s been stuck to Claude’s hip because he was literally raised to be his knight and is the captain. His job is to be the emperors personal gaurd so of course he is stuck to him by the hip? Not to mention the fact that they are literally raised like brothers and went through a lot together so of course they have a close bond. He is very much work focused and a workaholic. Lily literally said she was her soul twin and refers to her as a close friend/ sister. She saw felix for the first time cuz she focuses a lot on Athy and it is technically the first time they communicate outside of taking care of Athanasia.Your inability to differentiate romantic feelings versus platonic feelings is concerning. Furthermore to insist they are gay despite them showing no indication otherwise is weird and it’s giving fetish. Yeah i do agree that their relationship is a little out of nowhere cuz we barely got screentime of them two together but ultimately speaking there have been small signs here and there. While i personally would have preferred they remain single cuz it’s a little unexpected i can’t say they’re gay cuz it’s clear they aren’t.

“insisting they’re gay when there’s no signs is giving fetish!!” ah yes, i forgot there were the only two relationship progressions that can happen, straight and fetish. i forgot only straight relationships can have forced, out of no where progression because of the few lackluster moments that were written in to hint they would definitely be a thing, my bad.
..are you even hearing yourself? i perfectly pointed out the queer coded writing in their characters, you dismissing it with your own interpretation doesn’t erase its existence. lily has literally been gossiped about because of her hatred and disinterest in men, this aligns with many lesbian experiences.

this is not doing you any favors on where you stand emotionally in all of this, and it’s leaning ragingly hard towards homophobia. queer relationships being discussed and generally EXISTING as part of the conversation shouldn’t be making you this uncomfortable to the point you try to use “fetishizing queer relationships” as a poor shield to justify how uncomfortable it makes you. nothing of what i said could be considered that, its a poor attempt to silence queer voices while sounding morally superior.

this is just another case of the authors accidentally making perfect foundations for queer love and relationships and then trying to shove them into a heterosexual one. felix is portrayed to struggle to have interest in women, so yes, the fact that he shows interest in the only woman known for her disinterest in men and her massive love for another woman feels queer coded. it aligns with the appeal of a lavender marriage, lily feels no interest in him, and that may give him a sense of comfort around her, thus wanting to get with her for social appearances so he can continue doing what he really loves without someone nagging him for his personal time (what he really loves in this case would be sticking around claude and athanasia). lily’s case is just so obvious that i don’t even have to get into it, and the half hearted add of “we’re soul twins” doesn’t even do a proper job of explaining her fixation of diana.


this is seen often in media. “these two characters have passionate feelings for each other, oh but bc they’re the same sex ofc that passionate feeling was just friendship and sibling-hood!! whew, that was a close one.”

that’s why author intent really doesn’t mean much to me. yeah they’re scrambling to hide it but the foundation is already set, and the fear of any potential queer relationships or general feelings developing is what had them scrambling to push out this forced hetslop.

you can interpret all you want, but i’m just saying that the characters have perfectly fine queer coded under tones (ESPECIALLY lily, felix i can definitely just write off as him being straight, or even being aroace but generally prioritizing familial love and friendship over romance.)

i don’t even ship claude and felix together but given the direction of his character writing THAT would make more sense than felix and lily, which is my point. anyway you have a lot of reflecting to do.

Lmao ur being so ridiculous i’m literally bisexual and have been in gay relationships myself. I’m saying it’s a fetish because there is no indication of romantic feelings other than them being social awkward with the opposite sex and caring for their closest friend which happens to be the same sex as them. Do not come here hitting me with the homophobic card when i’m pointing ur baseless and ridiculous assumptions. Lily is uncomfortable with those men because they are clearly viewing her as just another woman and only like her pretty face. Felix is uncomfortable around other woman cuz again he’s very much a workaholic he has had relationships with woman but he’s so focused on work he doesn’t give them proper attention. Not to mention the fact that he is just clueless about woman in general cuz again he’s a WORKAHOLIC. This isn’t about the media or being homophobic or queer baiting or trying to downplay gay relationships its literally just two people who are really close with someone of the same sex. I called ur actions fetishized because ur looking at two people of the same sex being close and assume they’re in a relationship. Felix has never yearned, or showed yearning, or stolen glances or literally did anything other than be beside Claude as his friend and gaurd and Lily hasn’t shown any signs of romantic infatuation with Diana either. They have never said so much as a “ I want them” or “ I wish it could be me” or even LOOKED at claude or diana in a way that indicates they have feelings for them. Lily admires Diana cuz she represented everything she wanted to be, free and living for herself. Felix grew up with Claude. There’s nothing more. If u have anything literally anything other than them being fond of them or spending time with them do let me know. This means something as a glance or a word or a touch that indicated more than platonic feelings.

Also, he nags Claude because Claude was being an absolute bum towards Athy and Felix didn’t like the way claude was acting and treating her.

Lastly i’m not uncomfortable with them prospect of being gay. Me pointing out how baseless ur claims are does not make me homophobic lol.

mind you, you can be queer and still be homophobic. you’re adding a lot of words in my mouth, i never said they’re canonically gay, i never said anything about queerbaiting either?? i’m saying they have more writing that aligns more with queerness than they do with heterosexuality and it would’ve been a better direction to go in since that makes MORE sense for their characters THAN THE forced hetslop relationship. on its own maybe it would’ve been a nothing burger, but i’m saying there’s MORE potential there than the shit hetslop they’re trying to make “happen”. i’m allowed to criticize media.

you’re bringing a lot of highlight to the half attempt excuses to explain their behaviors. like yeah, felix got the “workaholic” excuse for why he spends so much time with the emperor, but this bitch literally does not do a damn thing the entirety of the manwha except hover around them and serve *tea* on occasion, they even point it out IN THE STORY because the palace is so peaceful he might as well not even be working. claude didn’t even start giving felix his paperwork to do for him until around the time athy was having her debutante (considering how caught off guard he was when he asked him in that chapter). “workaholic” my goddamn ass, with this writing in mind it makes more he’s using work as an excuse. so if we go with the idea that this Felix is using work as an excuse to avoid women and relationships, WHAT IM TRYING TO SAY is that it would make MORE SENSE if he just liked being around claude than it being because he’s saving himself for lily, the VERY out of left field romantic interest insert when this seems to have BEEN an issue even since before athy was born and he started even SEEING lily around, considering the fact that she was only hired when athy was born and stayed in the ruby palace separate from claude and felix for five years.

you’re getting so mad you feel the need to push your own interpretation on me time and time again because i said felix had a crush for POTENTIALLY preferring to spend time with the emperor, rather than be in relationships or even have a fucking life for himself outside of being the emperor’s knight, and i wasn’t even that serious when i said it, goddamn. and you’re saying you’re not homophobic? romantic love doesn’t have to be in your fucking face for it to be considered a possibility. you thinking it’s “forced” and therefore “fetishizing queerness” is you just shitting on the possibility that a queer character could exist when straight relationships have LESS than this to work with and yet because they’re man and woman it’s enough for them to get together, kind of like what’s happening to fucking lily and felix in this same goddamn story. if you see it as a stretch, fine, but what i’m TRYING to say that this scenario would have more reason and ground to work with than the heterosexual relationship being jammed in our faces.

“forcing queerness is fetishizing it! oh but the very clearly forced canon straight relationship is fine they get a pass, it’s not my taste but what can you do, right?”

Okay.

there’s genuinely no reason to get THIS upset because i can personally see how their situations can be interpreted as queer if they had the fucking balls to give the side characters any actual good writing. your reading comprehension must be in the depths of hell if you see a character blushing hard and yearning over the image of another person who’ve they’ve talked about in such a high light, and then go “oh yeah, that’s some passionate ass platonic love”. like sure, it CAN be read as that, and there’s nothing wrong with it, but why get fucking upset when someone can interpret it as romantic, or in my case, says it would’ve BEEN better and more in character for it to be romantic?? then going as far as to say it’s fetishizing queerness? gtfo.

you’re basically telling me heterosexuality should get the benefit doubt for the “obvious hints here and there” (in other words, the plainest scenes of them existing near each other). meanwhile when people pick up on some undertones that may align with queerness, suddenly it’s “no!! that’s obviously not it!! they’re just silly like that a-and it’s explained in the story with (insert most lackluster, half assed piece of evidence here), it doesn’t make them guh… QUEER though!!! the horror!! quit trying to force it you fetishist!!”

you still have a lot of reflecting to do.

i wouldn’t even call this queerbaiting though. i’m just saying that queer developments over the nothing burger straight relationship they chose to go with would’ve had more backing to it. they could’ve also just not forced these two unrelated characters into a romantic relationship when they were perfectly fine without it.

Honestly i just find it hilarious that you’re being such a hypocrite right now and back peddling so hard. You literally said their relationship with be a lavander relationship because they’re in love with someone of the same sex. Thats literally calling them gay. You can’t be in a lavander marriage if they aren’t gay. Also, you’re saying i’m mad and uncomfortable just because i don’t agree with your perspective which is false and i have addressed this in my previous comment as well. You say i’m putting words in your mouth when i’m not, i’m pointing your hypocrisy because ur literally claiming imm upset or homophobic or uncomfortable just because i disagree with you. I never once cussed or got heated or insulted you as an individual or got defensive. I’m pointing out how ridiculous ur claims are. You’re the one who has been cussing me out, throwing insults at me, and getting extremely defensive because I don’t agree with you. Let me make something very clear, im not upset, i quite frankly don’t care enough to get upset and you may think that the reason why i am dignifying you with a reply is because i am upset, but its not, i’m just engaging in the conversation because i’m not embarrassed to call you out in your hypocrisy. This entire time you have been insulting and spreading defamatory claims just cuz ur not getting the replies you u want. You keep spinning back to me being homophobic cuz i dont agree they’re gay but have no concrete proof to back up they’re gay. Furthermore, even if I was upset wouldn’t anyone get upset when there’s someone constantly telling them they’re homophobic or insulting them over a stupid comment? Yeah the palace is peaceful but that does not take away the fact that he is the emperors personal gaurd. That’s like saying because a country or political office is peaceful soldiers should stop being workaholics. He is a knight, he can’t rest just because it’s peaceful cuz it takes one moment, one slip up for the emperor to be assassinated or at least injured. Also, him being a workaholic is not a bs excuse because his mom was the same way as well. She was so busy being a maid she rarely spent time with Felix and Felix resented her for it till she died and realized she loved him the entire time she was just very work orientated. He’s exactly like his mom. Also, Calling something out for being a fetish is not me shitting on the possibility of something being queer, it’s literally just pointing out a fetish which is an actual problem in the queer community because our sexuality Is NOT something to be fetishized. Yes romantic love does not need to be in your face for it to be true IN REAL LIFE. This is a fictional story and normally in fictional stories there are some very clear indicators when characters are romantically interested in each other. Otherwise if the author just comes out and randomly says they’ve been in love with someone the entire time then the readers will be confused cuz there was no indicators or buildup which is a sign of poor writing. Lily and Felix have had actual indicators before. Very small but there and no it’s not just them spending time with each other. Stuff like Lily only Feeling comfortable around Felix during balls when she’s being hounded by other men, Felix being the only one that understand why she cared so much about Athy. As i said before, i don’t particularly care for the ship because i personally think its a little out of the blue cuz again, very little signs of them getting together. This has nothing to do with thinking heterosexuality is superior or being gay as inferior or social constructs. Ur making this into something it isn’t and pulling the homophobic card just to get ur point across which it doesn’t. U claimed they were gay and in a lavander relationship, i said no they aren’t, and you chose to escalate it cuz ur upset i disagreed. The one shoving shit into peoples mouth is you. The one being a hypocrite is you. So don’t tell me to reflect on anything just cuz u think u have the moral high ground over a conflict that was completely of your own making and was blown out of proportion because of you.

“this is a story where characters need CLEAR!! INDICATORS!!!”

“…Felix and Lily have had actual indicators, very small but there.”

your audacity proceeds to astound me, you can’t even see how you’re proving my point and being a hypocrite in the same paragraph. you’re giving straight characters the grace of small indicators in writing and romantic SUBTEXT that isn’t clearly in your face, while queer relationships HAVE TO HAVE clear indicators. the hypocritical one here is you.

“you claimed they were in a lavender marriage”, no, I said that if they were to get together, it would be LIKE the epitome of a lavender marriage, because the EMOTIONAL ROMANTIC SUBTEXT is stronger in a queer light. i never said they were ACTIVELY in a relationship with others. “that’s literally calling them gay!!” and is that supposed to be bad??? heterosexuality isn’t the default, you’re claiming you’re not upset when you’re commenting shit like this where you’re clearly taking offense to the implication that they CAN be gay. i’m also not forcing anyone together, i said they were EMOTIONALLY married off, as in to say it’s a one-sided attraction and only getting together in a straight relationship because they know they can comfortably yearn for their respective crushes while being able to keep up social appearances. it’s a stretch for felix, i can agree with that, but it’s literally in your face for lily, the only time she see’s him for the first time is because he’s accepting of her massive love for diana, it’s the first time she feels accepted for who she is (which REEKS of queerness).


responding calmly doesn’t change the situation, if you weren’t as bothered as you claimed you were you wouldn’t be wasting time trying to shove your perspective on to me. your first response is “the delusion is astounding” so don’t go acting like you’re some saintly person for being able to maintain calm when you’re the one repeatedly instigating and then getting shocked that i disagree and get upset. you could’ve also simply said “i don’t see it! have a nice day.” but instead you’ve called me delusional and have made claims that i’m weird for seeing it in a queer perspective and have accused i’m fetishizing queer relationships when countless lesbian women currently in the wmmap fandom have related to lily’s experience from a lesbian perspective. your commentary is basically “don’t you know lesbian characters can’t have well written subtle moments? they have to be (MORE) in your face! they have to be openly yearning and talking in detail about how they wanna fuck their crush, otherwise you’re making baseless claims and that’s bad >:( how dare you fetishize lesbianism and forcing it onto an unrelated character >:(“. based on this reaction, it seems more like you’re taking issue with queer people connecting to characters and making head canons, which does align with potential homophobic tendencies, otherwise you wouldn’t be repeatedly up my ass telling me “no!! but these moments can be seen this way instead!! this is how i, a NORMAL person sees it after all!!”

i’ve repeatedly stated my perspectives. a queer development would have had more backing than the straight development, the romantic subtext you’ve told me for felix and lily could just as easily be dismissed as you’ve dismissed how I VIEW aspects of their character, her going near Felix has been already stated that she only does it because he doesn’t pester her and acts as a repellent for other men, it has nothing to do with wanting to be with him, and her being comfortable enough around him to do that doesn’t mean she’s head over heels for him like you’re claiming needs to be showed ever so clearly for it to be picked up. it could very well be read as platonic.

a queer relationships doesn’t need explicit stating and blushing and obvious in your face moments for it to exist when heterosexual relationships don’t need that to happen before getting together. i’m pointing out the double standard. there’s nothing fetishizing about simply wanting representation, you still need to reflect on that. i’ve repeatedly called you out on it. “forcing two characters is wrong in the lgbt community. oh you have evidence why they would work together that isn’t them humping an image of them and being jealous? you’re forcing it, quit trying to make queerness happen. don’t you know only straight people can get together with little to no hints?”

the writing DOES NOT need to be in your face, you’re just admitting you have a shit taste for romance and i can give multiple examples of romantic developments that happen on screen and the characters aren’t awkwardly fumbling and blushing heavily and openly yearning for the other character on screen. claiming that queer relationships HAVE to show these signs otherwise it’s forcing two characters together for the sake of fetishizing them puts romantic queer relationships in a box that straight people never have to conform to.

i’ve repeatedly told you time and time again that yes, maybe these moments could be considered a reach, but that’s not the point, the point is that they have MORE grounding than the poorly written straight relationship. i’m not backpedaling, i’m actively elaborating on what i mean.

you’re conveniently ignoring my point to completely dismiss my perspective and how actually- it can be interpreted and dismissed as something else instead of queerness. i’ve already told you i don’t care about how you interpret it, my interpretation has just as much backing and would make more sense than the development of the straight relationship, that’s it. that’s the whole conversation.

Lol listen, i don’t care. Honestly i’m just debating on here because it’s fun and i actually enjoy having a deferring opinion with people. i keep repeating that i am not upset and quite frankly don’t care if lily or felix do end up together or don’t. If u wanna think i’m homophobic and uncomfortable or dislike it then by all means go ahead your allowed to think that way. We both have a different opinion and clearly will not see eye to eye with each other because it’s clear we’re either misunderstanding each other or being deliberately obtuse. I have made my position clear several times that i thy end up together than i don’t care and i also let you know that i personally wouldnt want then together cuz aside from those small indicators there was nothing more to their relationship other than two people that were workaholics. I’m not replying to you because i’m butthurt and offended or wtv narrative you built up in your head i’m just replying because again i like having debates on here. I have free will and it’s telling me to waste my time doing randoms stuff cuz i have free time but other than that idc. I stated my position and i stated why i think that way. I made it very clear it’s not for homophobic reasons. Also, another reason i’m replying is to address the fact that i am not homophobic like i can not make that any more clear, not that you would believe me because you have already decided on a narrative about me despite you not knowing me as a person all because i disagree with you. I was not saying that two people have to be blatantly obvious about being on a relationship, and i most certainly did not mean it specifically for queer people. I meant that in general small but clear indicators like blushing, or being awkward, or yearning for someone are clear indicators which lily and felix did not do for claude or Diana. They just happened to spent time w each other which can be interpreted as friends most times because u can tell the difference. there is no reading between the lines or anything like that it’s just blantantlt obvious it’s platonic. Lily and Felix don’t make sense to either which i have said several times i was just pointing out why other people would see them as romantic. Yeah if i came off as dismissive was cuz i was not abt to read all those long paragraphs u been sending me to prove ur point while also insulting me. I’ve been half assing this the whole time. Also, i’m not acting th saint, i’m just pointing out how the one that was upset was you not me because at the end of the day all i did was disagree. I was rude about it yes, but i simply disagreed. Regardless i apologize for the attitude in my first reply it was wrong of me. Lastly, i apologize if i was back handed and dismissive it could be i just misunderstood ur point cuz there are a lot of people that fetishize gay relationships which bothers me as a bisexual individual because it turns homosexuality into a trend or something for entertainment which is dehumanizing. Thats why i said what i said and was disrespectful about it because i hate when people fetishize homosexuality like it’s something for entertainment when it’s not. I don’t know you as a person so i’m not gonna jump to conclusions on your character as i now understand ur not trying to fetishize anything, u have a different opinion and that’s fine. . We disagree on thei relationship status but we agree their relationship is out of the blue and unnecessary. Thats all.

sure i respect that. i also recognize ive been overly emotional about this whole thing and i’m sorry if that overwhelmed you, i was frustrated over feeling dismissed and misunderstood. i absolutely did go too far in some parts. i high key cringed when i read back one of my responses bc i’m pretty sure i put fucking like five times fjdkds. i was absolutely projecting there, reading this all back i was the one that was most upset lmfao. i completely get just debating and wanting to see different perspectives and share ur own dw, i do it often too (although ive been trying to stop bc i cannot for the life of me stay detached and take things too personally).

anyway i’m glad you were able to separate from the heated debate and tell me this even after all my nasty remarks, i can get pretty stubborn and overly defensive too. i’m sorry for the claims and insults, i was just trying to explain my conclusion as to why it felt homophobic to me, but i believe you when you say you aren’t, don’t worry, and i accept your apology, i’m sorry too.

if nothing else i hope the argument was an entertaining pass time lol. hope you enjoy the rest of ur day