rape?

yes - i said I don t see it (sorry typo) as rape
anywas - was it rape ? NOT for me - painful - yes
so where did i change my mind? i m still saying i don t see it as rape? that was my point from the first comment on? so?

The 'typo' as you so helpfully suggested would lead people to think otherwise, wouldn't it? So, nothing, you don't see it as rape.

Well, you are right: women can sexually abuse men too, and there are multiple forms of sexual harassment. I'm my country the crime called "rape" technically can only be committed by a man because it's written as an action someone does using his penis... If I'm not wrong when a woman forces a man to have sex it would be called a form of "sexual abuse" in the technical sense... But it's equally wrong an harmful as what we colloquially call "rape". I think must of people commonly use "rape" as a synonym of sexual abuse as a genre of sexual crimes. Oh and Thanks for mentioning that women can also commit sexual abuse! It's important to remember men can be victims too.

I would argue that the moment in the past that you're referring to, when Sangwoo used a dildo, that could maybe be considered sexual abuse too. That is a way more obscure case, and I don't want to discuss that.

I'm gonna repeat something I replied to an other comment because it's pertinent here: "When people are being sexually abused, especially if it's not the first time someone has suffered that, or if they feel threatened, they often stop saying "no", stop resisting, sometimes they even say "ok", because they're afraid of being physically hurt or raped with violence which would be dangerous and hurt even more... It's actually very common that victims of sexual abuse are in shock and can't defend themselves properly during the act."

Saying "yes" isn't synonym of giving consent to sex. Silence isn't consent. Consent has to be valid, which means the person has to make clear with his/her words and/or body language/gestures that the "yes" is honest, that that is a free decision. This is why if someone tells you, with a gun in your head, "I am going to kill you if you struggle, you have to let me fuck you" and the victim says "ok" or lets him fuck her/his... That consent wasn't valid. It was not free will.

If a 6 years old boy is being sexually abused by an adult relative, and the child 'seems" happy or participates "willingly" in the sexual activities because he's confusing them for affection or is confused, or afraid, etc.... That is not valid consent. A child isn't able to give consent to sex because he can't understand what is happening and make free informed responsible sexual decisions.... In a similar way, a mentally unstable person, if he/she doesn't have free will because of a trauma/or serious mental illness... Then he/she can not give valid consent to sex either.

Also, do you know that victims of sexual abuse sometimes get aroused and feel guilty or believe they were at fault because they got excited, but that's a physical reaction. It does not mean they gived consent. (For example, penises can become erect out of fear, for the adrenaline, not necessarily because "it feels good")


Honestly, Bum is bleeding and Sangwoo punched him before penetrating him.... I'll say this again: you are wrong about your reasoning/opinions.... THIS SCENE IS RAPE.

"sometimes they even say "ok", because they're afraid of being physically hurt or raped with violence which would be dangerous and hurt even more..."
We've actually seen Bum do that before. When Sangwoo gets violent Bum often tells Sangwoo he loves him to try to get him to stop hurting him. Bum did that during the dildo scene and after trying to escape.

And in adding further to the conditions of rape there's another point to be considered. People keep using Bum's prior sexual interactions with Sangwoo and his sexual attraction to Sangwoo as a reason he cannot be raped by Sangwoo. Consent to sex in the past is not consent to sex in the future. Consent must be given for every sexual interaction.

ok yes i know that very well - and again - bum wants to go inside - almost inmediately because he doesn t feel comfortable doing it outside - as soon they in the house - he lies down and says x times that he likes sangwoo - even tho sangwoo tells him to shut up - if bum would fear for his life or be scared in this very moment of sangwoo - wouldn t he shut the hell up the moment sangwoo tells him too? but he keeps telling him that he likes him

if saying "yes" isn t a synonym of giving consent to sex then we start to have a lil problem here ....giving up saying no at one point or being threated is another point of course...

"has to make it clear with his /her words and /or body language/gestures" - did you see that short moment he tried to hug sangwoo? - beside that his bodylanguage was - when they went inside the house - was pretty clear to me
he said twice no and the explaination for me was 1. hurts 2. its outside

the pain seemed to be gone away very quick (i don t think that d happen in real life tho ) , or he might was even more aroused because of the pain (little masochist?)
and as soon the location changed bum was apparently pretty confortable with the situation

i know that vicitims sometimes can get excited - and that it is a physical reaction - and also that they often feel guilty because of that - but bum seemed to enjoy it and is not getting aroused because of being scared or something


yes i know that children can t give a valid consent - we re not talking about a child we re talking about an adult men who is completely obsessed with a person and says so many times (even after all what sangwoo did to him) and wants to stay at the side of this brutal person. Bum is mentally ill ok - but i d say in his case he still can give valid consent - if he wants to

i don t see this as rape - because of the reason i explained

i also don t hate sangwoo nor bum - i try to understand their actions

and i enjoy reading this manwha

anyway - if you want to talk about real people - then i think the problem wouldn t be the sex - but more everything that happend before and that people in real life - is it bum or is it sangwoo need to be stopped and need a hell lot of help

btw i do understand your points and yes in other situations we might even think same but i can t apply all of this to bums situation because of many reasons

that bum is using i like or i love you as a surviving strategy seems to be wrong as well - because like i said - sangwoo tells him to shut up but he doesn t at all - if you re scared as shit from a person , and this person is hurting you and this person tells you to shut up - you d be scared as hell and try not to provoke him more so you d shut up -w ouldn t you?

anyway - i also know that you have to say yes everytime you have sex - and that just because you had sex in the past doesn t mean a yes for forever - i hope everyone knows that tho...

I think you didn't understand all my arguments. But it doesn't matter now, I don't want to impose my opinion. We disagree. I consider this scene rape. Because I consider Bum isn't in a mental condition that allows him to give consent with free will, because Sangwoo is threatening Bum and being violent in order to force him to accept sex, because Bum said "No" more than once yet Sangwoo penetrated him against his will... You believe Bum is not mentally stable enough to the point of not being able to make decisions about his sexuality, you believe Sangwoo wasn't physically and psychologically forcing Bum to have sex against his will, and that in this occasion Bun really was in his right mind, that he said "yes" with free will because he "loves" Sangwoo. We disagree. Let's leave it like that.

You believe Bum is not mentally UNstable ** enough

YES

i m saying bum is obsessed with sangwoo - doesn t necessarily have to be love
and yes i guess i really don t think that bum is mentally unstable enough to the point of not being able to make decisions about wanting to have sex or not - i think bum is pretty smart himself - or both or at least sangwoo would be in jail right now

he knows what kind of a person sangwoo is and yet he made the decision to stay with sangwoo - because yes - now it was a decision - he could get out of there - but he didn t want to - he was too scared and too attached to sangwoo to get away from him

and i never said that sangwoo wasn t forceful or rough . because he was - i just don t consider it rape because of the reasons i told you

i don t try to make something romantic out of this story so please stop saying so - it s rather annoying - i m just saying that bum seems to be ok with sex - it just first hurt - which was the first no - and then he didn t feel comfortable doing it outside - as soon those two facts changed - bum was completely ok with the sex so i can t agree that it was "rape"

But the thing is, Sangwoo has been responsive to Bum's admissions of love, even when he is very angry. Not only did that happen during the 2 scenes I mentioned in the previous comment but it also happened in chapters 2 and 3. When Bum was caught breaking in he told Sangwoo he loved him and Sangwoo decided not to kill him. In chapter 3 Sangwoo allowed Bum out of the basement after he told Sangwoo he loved him. It's a survival strategy that almost always results in Sangwoo being less violent.

I NEVER implied that you're trying to make something romantic out of this story. I said "love" in quotations because I understand you were saying Bum has an obsessive/unhealthy type of love towards Sangwoo. I wasn't even discussing the nature or morality of Sangwoo and Bum's relationship/dynamic. I was only explaining the reasons for which I consider the scene in last chapter should be considered "rape". I think most people who have knowledge about psychology and law would consider that rape. You disagree. It's totally fine, you can have your own opinion and I'll have my opinion. That's it.

Sangwoo is manipulating Bum, using Bum's feelings of fear, loneliness, and affection in order to make sure Bum does whatever he wants. Sangwoo uses deception (acting, telling Bum "we're boyfriends", etc), psychological and physical abuse to manipulate Bum's decisions and will. Bum can't deny him. His life is in danger, Sangwoo made him participate in his crimes, Bum can't say No to him without risking his life.

i disagree about the raping part - but i agree with a lot of other things that are stated here - anyway - i can't see it as rape- and i explained why - but to everyone their opinion about it - it s always interesting that people automatically think that i sure have no idea about law and/or psychology - just because i disagree about this special scene here now - anyway - right now i have to focus on something else - you can of course keep to discuss it, that is of course ok and i can't stop it anyway but i ll have to stop participating for a while - thanks anyway for everyone who participated and stated (peacefully) their opinions :)

I don't disagree with you on any of that, it's true Bum's life is in danger. Nevertheless Sangwoo does seem like(?) when Bum says he loves him or calls out his name.

i honestly think sangwoo does like bum - otherwise he d have killed him long ago - but he doesn t know how to love - he can t accept that he loves and can t believe that someone would love him (like the monster he is) - he s trying to give bum what bum wants and at the same time he has no idea how to show affection or love and how to handle this situation better than with this sick/brutal/agressive way of treating another person - he can t handle the "I love or i like you" it s too much for him - it torments him - because he wants to believe but he cant believe it - so it makes him confused and angry and maybe even scared but still he reacts on it

i honestly don t think he is a "bad" person - i think he doesn t know better and he needs help - a hell lot of help
so does bum...