My two cents

Hmm I understand you. But I think author want to do super cute love story of kept man. And he isn’t feminine but just dumb. He was stalked and raped but some rich guy. Who are obsessed with him and buy him food.

This^. Not feminine, dependent. Or kept.

overall i agree. it's like people haven't accepted a male x male relationship the way it is but more like a male x female where the 'girl role' happens to be taken by a guy

Yes I understand the author want fluffiest, but you can still do that by having the men be treated as men. If you can't understand men x men relationships maybe don't draw them. If you can only understand men x women maybe stick with that.

You say you understand, but your response made it seem like you don't. What they said was that maybe this was the author's intended storytelling and that you're percieving it as manXwoman instead of manXkept man. You're saying that him being kept is feminine, but it doesn't come across that way to me, he just comes across dumb/naive. It's not a matter of whether or not they CAN draw manXman if the story is told like this intentionally, so your response comes across as besides the point.

And you don't seem to understand mine.

Oh? What specifically?

Not even that, but they tend to use the most tedious stereotypes of women too and project this onto two men. Either they are annoying, whiny, slutty or they are some naive, gullible, dependent virginal fool. The whole passive uke and dominant seme thing is probably the cause of all this though. Also, does anyone else cringe when a character comes out with shit like 'you are turning into a woman" "i've made you a woman" or they refer to a man as being "mother" or "wife", ditto with all the crossdressing where a characters entire personality and look has to be defined by what they want from sex.

Yes you understand exactly what makes me mad that this genre! Why can't they be dad and papa? Why say "you're as wet as a women". Why compare the 2 at all like that?! Why must one have to take the role as a women! It's like they can't comprehend a male relationship without one being the primary female role!

I think it's more of just that some people find dirty talk sexy? It just seems like such a non-issue to be upset about, but i guess sensitive people exist and will continue to get hurt.

Indeed. I see the comment responding to yours from yourideaiswrong, has missed the point completely though. It's not that people are prudish to "dirty" language, but the attempt by yaoi authors to portray a male-male relationship, with one character ending up being portrayed in this awful female stereotype. As you said, if they wanted to portray a straight relationship then why not just use opposite sex characters, rather than turning one man into a dress wearing, passive, shojo esque maiden and even referring to them by female pronouns as referenced already. Seriously, in real life a man saying "I'm going to turn you into a woman" must be the biggest turn off, but I guess if yaoi's prime audience is women, they might empathise with a character that is the "uke" more than if they were presented as just two normal male characters without these silly tropes. Not all yaoi manga and manhwa uses the whole manly manipulative seme and dependent weak girly uke thing though.

You're on point on that. Just read one were male x male relationship was portrayed very nicely (sex scenes were good but not realistic not complaining though). It's sad but true that the passive uke is what sells well just about everywhere. I have accepted this fact and sometimes get really great stories even with this trope! Thanks for your understanding! Maybe for others I wasn't getting my point across clearly enough, but waht ya gunna do?

I think you missed my point... I'm saying that they may not use those phrases you just gave as a means of portraying a maleXfemale relationship, but rather just as dirty talk for sex appeal and maybe you're overreacting. My point was that you see those phrases and assume they're misgendering the uke and get hurt instead of just assuming the obvious, that it's just sexy dirty talk. You'll notice that those phrases are commonly said during sex scenes...

If we're talking a feminine PERSONALITY, that's a whole other thing and i can agree with you two in that there are a lot of uke's depicted as feminine, but what was brought forward earlier was examples of cliche sex lines and i don't agree that those necessarily misgender the uke as you're both asserting.

You make it sound as if being feminine or being "treated as a female" is a very demeaning thing. Is there something wrong with being a feminine male? You're the one who is narrow-minded enough to think that showing your love to someone must be categorised in terms of gender.

I am a boy. Would it be wrong to give my boyfriend some flowers and chocolates? or give him a teddy bear? or pay for a nice night out? He's never told me to treat him like "a man." I don't see him as just a man. I treat him for the person he is and he appreciates my romantic gestures. Everyone, even guys, want to be wooed and spoiled at times, too.

Most people treat others as individuals with personalities, not exclusively as a man or woman. The person who do sees others only in terms of their gender is the sexist one.

Men are not from Mars; Women are not from Venus. Humans are all from Earth. "Whats unhealthy is the continued forcing of both men and women to live out the stereotypical Male & Female roles without having an opportunity to explore their other characteristics and attributes".

Nothing wrong with feminism and nothing wrong with couples have both male and female traits. This story portrays the main couple as primarily one couple being stereotyped male and another being what you would see a main female lead in a shounen (which is already a tried idea for a character). I never said feminine on a man is bad, sorry if it came across that way, I'm saying there is more to them then that.

I also know that there are cases where a male couple are like that, my main deal was that there is so many stories where this is the case. This story is still very cute and fluffy with the whole "relationship goals" (not sarcasm, I promise). I'm just tired of dominic seme and dormant uke trope.

Yes, this is the point i had been trying to make too, they seem to just be looking at things and just... Categorizing... them. It's like the sex lines they brought up earlier, why is it demeaning to say any of that? It's sex talk, and women have a tendency to biologically react differently during sex, it's a simple comparison meant as a sex appeal to the crowd interested in domination. They seem to have a problem with domination, but that's kinda what sex talk is... You talk to the person like they're a slab of meat about to be worshipped by your hungry ass to get the juices flowing.

I think you are missing the point. It's not about forgoing restrictive gender norms, but instead perpetuating regressive stereotypes and using unrealistic language. We were talking more about yaoi in general, where a man-man relationship gets portrayed as a man-woman one, with one character being made into an "uke" who is extremely passive, and just lives for their "seme" and gets told things like "you are just like a woman" or "I'm turning you into a woman, simply because they are receiving anal sex. Why not show the "seme" character being the one who wears a dress, or gets called wife or woman if it really was about showing non conformist gender roles? They don't because the "uke" character ends up being this weird stereotype of women, so a primarily female audience can empathise with them.