Ah, no, no, its okay. Thank you for spending some of ur time defending me. I know the way the coversation turned was nerve-wrecking for me but I understood your intention and was really grateful for it. So, thank you and happy new year as well!
http://iweb11.mangapicgallery.com/r/newpiclink/samejima_kun_to_sasahara_kun/7/72d16f63a9f442e64caef1e8164d545b.png
You don't have to be a social justice warrior to want to see relationships where the two parties treat each other as equals. But to each their own.
Since this is still going, I suppose I'll get back in here. Would reply to a specific comment but had internet troubles and came back to way too many comments that need replying to.
First I'd like to point out that I am in fact, against all odds considering the demographics of this site, a real life gay guy. Not that anyone would have known, obviously, but still. And apparently an SJW now, too? Who knew asking a half-assed answe-Imeanquestion gave you SJW status? Should've done that ages ago, huh? Remind me to ask more questions around here.
Anyways, now that we've established that, I think it's safe to assume that I'm in a better position to be talking about "positions from the gays for the gays" than most other people, given that I am one, yes? The vast majority of people sticking to strictly top or bottom are older men. No one I've ever been in a relationship with was like that, and most people around my age that I know are either indifferent about it or don't want to do that at all.
But since we apparently want me to have an issue with the question originally asked, even though I was literally just asking a genuine question in order to perhaps gain some insight on this trope... I'll bite.
I don't think the seme/uke dynamic is inherently a problem. There's people who are strictly top/bottom, and I see no reason to not represent them. What can easily become a problem though, and quite frankly already has been for a while, is the expectation that all relationships in yaoi will/should be like that. Let's take a look at the question, actually. "Who's the seme/uke in the relationship?". Now replace "seme/uke" with "man/woman". It's literally asking the same thing. I hope we all can see why this might possibly be maybe just a little bit problematic, but it'd appear I'd be pushing my luck there if this thread is anything to go by. It's super invalidating and honestly does perpetuate a "hetero" relationship model. If we're not okay with asking a gay couple who's the man/woman in the relationship, I don't see how we're finding asking who the seme/uke is any more acceptable. Because they're not real? By that logic you could be homophobic, racist, any myriad of unacceptable things simply because they're "not real", so it's fine, right?
The point is that it really truly shouldn't matter who's doing what in bed, whether they're real people or pictures on a page. If you're really curious about it then read the thing and find out.
Yaoi is porn. It’s entertainment for other people. That’s the sole purpose of it. We’re not friends of those people, we’re consumers who watch a fiction story unfold. Asking who’s the seme/uke is like asking for a spoiler. If you’re unsure whether you want to continue reading the story or not a spoiler can be useful to know if you’re wasting your time. (e.g. it’s a movie about a person with cancer and you want to know whether the person will recover or not.) That applies to yaoi too but the main component of yaoi is sex. So asking what’s going on underneath the sheets is completely fine and valid. If it didn’t matter who’s doing what in bed you can just stick to shounen ai. And lastly, asking who’s the seme/uke is not like asking who’s the male and female since either way you’re still a man. It’s not heteronormative because there’s no such question in heterosexual relationships.
You really don't get it, do you...
- Them being fictional, again, does not make it okay. You can be a consumer and still be mindful of the ramifications of what you say. If you wouldn't say or ask it to a real life person, you shouldn't be of the characters, either. Whether you like it or not things that happen in the yaoi community do in fact end up affecting those of us out in the real world, and 99% of the time it's not a good thing. Your "spoiler" being acceptable means that gay people have to deal with people who genuinely think that there's a "seme" and "uke" in every gay relationship. And worse, that it's okay to go up to them and ask them who's who.
- Shounen-ai isn't for "if it didn't matter who's doing what in bed". There's literally nothing being done in bed in shounen-ai. Not the same thing at all. You're pushing this notion of "take it as it is or don't have it at all" by suggesting that, which is super harmful and absolutely unacceptable. Not to mention incredibly ironic considering people pushed the same notion in regards to marriage. No one should have to settle.
- When you ask a gay couple who's the man/woman, they're still both men. That doesn't make it even remotely okay to ask. Both questions are asking who's sticking what where. The requested information is exactly the same, therefore they are, in fact, effectually the same question. Your point here really doesn't stand at all.
- Just because something doesn't exist in a heterosexual relationship, doesn't mean it can't be heteronormative. Of course there's no such question in heterosexual relationships because the answer is rather obvious. The fact that it's a question when it comes to gay couples means that there's an expectation or implication that there is or should be set roles in the gay couple's sexual relationship, which is in fact projecting a heteronormative relationship model onto them.
I don’t have enough patience to argue with you any further than this. You clearly haven’t grasped anything I’ve said. Maybe you haven’t read my comments thoroughly or perhaps you intentionally chose to ignore them. Anyhow I wish you the best and hope you learn not to take everything personally and not get too emotional. Happy 2020.
The fact that you are gay does not mean you speak "for the gays." Especially when you consider anyone over 20 "older men." Also your entire argument is just idiotic. Asking who is seme/uke is like asking who is the man/woman? WTF is wrong with you? Gay relationships can actually be stereotyped by hetero tropes, when the two men are always portrayed as a "masculine" and a "feminine" man. THAT is more like what you are explaining. Asking who is seme/uke isn't "problematic" because it implies the same thing, how the hell do you even make that leap in logic? This is exactly why I talk to a variety of gay people, not just gay teenage SJWs on illegal yaoi sites. You want to burn a witch who does not exist, OP was asking a HARMLESS QUESTION and y'all decided be assholes. If you really find yaoi problematic, just don't read it.
- I never claimed to "speak for the gays". That my actually being gay puts me in a better position to do so than "I know gay people" or "my friends are gay", now that's something I did say/imply. If you want to argue that secondhand knowledge is the better choice for that over real lived experience, be my guest, but I can't imagine you'll have much luck there.
- I don't consider 20s to be "older men", not even close. That's my age range, and I certainly don't consider myself or my boyfriend to be "older men". Assumptions seem to be rampant around here, huh?
- Asking who's the seme and who's the uke is the same as asking who's the top and who's the bottom. Asking who's the "man" and who's the "woman" in a gay relationship is the same as asking who's the top and who's the bottom. Changing the words doesn't make the question you're asking any different. They both provide the exact same answer. They're not just "implying" the same thing, they're literally asking the same thing. If finding two questions whose only difference is literally two words to be in effect the same question is a "leap in logic", then I can't imagine what you're giving the gold medal in mental gymnastics to.
- I don't talk to many teenagers at all unless I happen to encounter one online, let alone SJWs. All these assumptions and implications are really just making your case for you, aren't they?
- If you want to go on about "harmless questions" then I encourage you to go back to the part where I explained that I was asking a genuine question in an attempt to gain some insight into the seme/uke trope/dynamic. Maybe you missed it? OP's response to my question was also a harmless and perfectly valid question, but as I said previously I was having internet troubles and didn't get the time to continue to try and seize my newly found learning opportunity before someone decided to take their assumptions based on a total of two questions and zero statements and run wild. So if you want to talk about being "assholes" in regards to other people asking questions then perhaps I'm not the one you should be talking to.
- I never claimed to find yaoi problematic. I'm a lot of things, but I'm not a hypocrite.
Well I always like to ask because I like to see different things based on position. I wish there was a disclaimer on every sex scene on who bottoms so I can look for the things I like in their dynamic
I'm asking this because I would like to understand your line of thinking - Is there a reason why the dynamic in a relationship should be directly correlated to the sexual positions? Would you assume that a seemingly more submissive position during sex correspond to a submissive or dependent role in the relationship?
I will apologize for that. I assumed that there was an opinion underlying your initial comment while there wasn't. Also, to clarify, I do not and did not chastise anyone for having their own preferences in the kind of characters they want in the yaoi they read. I just think that "Why does it matter?" is a valid question to ask. "Because that's my preference" would be a perfectly valid answer to it. My only argument is that being in a forum like this with a wide variety of people gives us an opportunity to ask questions and hear from others who don't share our opinions. This being a site with illegal yaoi doesn't change that.
No, more like its directly related to my sexual position. I like looking for things I can relate to leading up to sex. It can be a switch couple for all I care but if i could know before hand on every scene, I would enjoy it more because my personal experience sees little details that I see in myself and in my SO that quite frankly, directly correlates to what position you are in
You didn't do anything wrong lol, you're fine. ^^
Ah... ok... never thought of it that way. that's interesting.
I know this forum has already ended and that it was simply an exchange of opinions but I started this and I feel apologetic for causing trouble, I didn't have any ill-intention, I guess I haven't thought well enough of my question on how it would sound or effect others. I learned a lot and so I'll be more open in the future, thank you. And I hope I haven't offended you or anything. Happy 2020
No no you're fine. As I said previously I was trying to gain some insight, not get into an argument. You didn't have anything to do with how things played out here, so don't blame yourself for it lol.
*sighs in relief*
I'm confused who's seme and uke? anyone please tell me!! Is samejima kun uke? or sasahara-kun? I'd prefer sasahara-kun but he seems to see samejima kun uke... well, i don't know (⌒▽⌒)