S&M

I hope you really don't believe what you're saying.

Who cares. It doesn't make any of his actions benevolent.

uhm I know,being a sadist doesn't make his actions benevolent and isn't supposed to,I am just saying that he is a sadist,typical behaviour.

? but that's what sadism is.

But IRL (which I know doesn't apply here), people who are into S & M as a kink should be "safe, sane and consensual". They actually have to talk a lot--before and after--about boundaries, safe words and how the scene made them feel. There is a lot of care and cummunication when it is done right.

you are right! but some sadists don't have that self-control, some of them need a victim...and if they have control of them like karino does,that's what happens. I understand what you are talking about and I agree. But in this case, karino is a sadist and azusa a masochist. I am talking about their personalities,and karino is a sadist (it doesn't mean that it is only physical,it can be emotional as well....and the emotional ones are much rarer. You can read onlinr about emotional abuse, a lot of masochists aren't into it,simply because it is worse....they don't have that control you mentioned. Anyway, I agree with you,but I was talking about their personalities. Maybe the title S&M was misleading XD

I don't think Asuza is a masochist. I don't think he enjoys pain--I think he gets so much of it that he gets used to it. The fact that he still fights back matters.

I think Kusakabe is a masochist and Kuze is a sadist (emotionally he is always settig other people up).

She's obviously referring to that Azusa is a masochist bull crap. I don't believe that either.

right Asuza is no way a masochist, what made you think he likes his torture?? If he were he would be happy with his current life no fighting to get revenge. If you think he likes the pain Karino is putting him through you are not paying attention to his character at all

First of all,I said "Azusa seems to be a masochist" I didn't say "Azusa is a masochist" there's a big difference,but I actually said karino IS a sadist. With this I am not sure if he's a masochist,but there are some parts that make me think he may be. Remember that scene,at the beginning of the manga, when karino blindfolded and had sex with azusa? Well that was super harsh(it was rape) for everyone,but azusa's reaction was this : http://www.mangago.zone/read-manga/caste_heaven/bt/245513/Ch2/22/
and after that he says " If I prentended I enjoyed it so you'd finish sooner..." he actually enjoyed it. this part: http://www.mangago.zone/read-manga/caste_heaven/bt/274923/Ch4/7/
and above all this part: http://www.mangago.zone/read-manga/caste_heaven/bt/274923/Ch4/9/
Azusa was still being emotionally and physically abused,but he complained that karino didn't finish doing it? Well,maybe he started to feel something for him?
And chapter 8 was too harsh,that's true,but if you read the part translated from maomao,then it is strange that when karino said "I made you came,you like it" or something like that,azusa's answer was only "shut up". And if you have ever read something about emotional masochism then you should know that the first cause is feeling worthless,and azusa,even if he doesn't admit it,he feels worthless. He said it so many times,the bottom must be exploited,the bottom is scum,the top doesn't care about the bottom...but who is the bottom in the end? Outside the school system,he is the bottom. He even said that he wanted to exploit them before being exploited. And with this I am NOT saying their relationshio is consensual,azusa doen't want it,he never gave his consent ,and that makes it much more horrible.

Hi!! I read this conversation and I feel that Azusa might not be a maso.I think the reason why he says such things in the links you've posted is because no matter how much pain is inflicted on him, he doesn't want to show anyone his weak side.He doesn't want to become dependent on someone else.That's why, even though he hates it, he acts like he doesn't give a shit.This is what I feel, I'd love to hear your opinion on this :)

hmm I think you are forgetting that your body can have a different reaction from your mind. There has been cases where the person that is being raped physically enjoys the act, doesn't means they mentally liked it and would like another experience like it.
Most definitions of masochist is this: Psychiatry. a person who has masochism, the condition in which sexual or other gratification depends on one's suffering physical pain or humiliation.
Azusa is not getting off on his physical pain or humiliation or did you saw him liking it when he was about to be gang raped? he gets off on having good sex, which karino supposedly is really good at despite being a virgin before this situation. He himself said his body is used to the pain so he is mind is starting to get used to to it too .
Azusa is not a masochist, Karino is trying to make him one (or is he?). The fact that he came to his senses and started fighting Karino again http://www.mangago.zone/read-manga/caste_heaven/bt/274923/Ch4/28/
shows he isnt. it bothers me how you said he was or seemed like one because you saying he likes his torture, he is a strong person that isnt gonna let anyone made him feel like shit else he would had already given up mentally. His body likes sex with karino, karino knows how to make him feel good after all, but he is still fighting not begging for more. If he was a masochist he would have been acting as how he was acting when he was filming now thats a masochist Azusa but nope that one was fake. Karino is a sadist but Azusa is not a masochist and I really hope he stays that way.

I agree with Karino being a sadist but not Azusa being a masochist on that with everyone else Azusa is basically..more or less numb and use tp shitty treatment

I respect your thoughtfulness (and there is more than one person who uses the shorter "anon" so I know it gets confusing). I want to clarify something though.

Abuse survivors and those who have learned helplessness or developed other problems are usually different than masochists. Well, there may be some overlap, but generally speaking, IRL, masochism is a *sexual* thing and learned helplessness is an overall psychological thing. Most masochist or submissive in the bedroom have to be in a certain "head space" to enjoy the pain or domination, and they do not usually act that way outside of a "scene" (a scene is sexual but not always involving sex per se).

Many people who are powerful and controlling in other areas of life enjoy being dominated sexually. Most submissive and mascohists have healthy personalities outside of the bedroom. It's like role play.

This is how I see it. When Asuza was king, he had vanilla sex with girls who had big breasts. He had emotional disconnect, but sexually he was pretty uncomplicated.

I do think that Asuza in some way responds to having his control taken away because he fights so long and so hard to be in control. Fighting that way since he was a small child made him tired inside, and in some ways it must have been a relief to have that stripped away for a moment. That doesn't make he abuse okay, it just explains why the reaction was not simply all negative.

Karino strips Azusa of his illusions, and at some point that starts to make Asuza vulnerable (as was the intent). There was a relative safety of accepting Karino, because then only Karino hurts him, and Azusa does not need to be in control. That's why when Azusa is hurt, he goes to Karino despite thinking Karino will hurt him. That's why the gentleness was such a mind fuck. The real kick in the teeth was going to Karino's house and being rejected. That's what makes Azusa start fighting again--the knowledge that Karino is only playing with him.

Ah I like this response a lot as it re clarified some stuff I forgot (i havent read this the chapter 5 came out and didnt really feel like it ) i completely see where you're coming from and agree a bit

I'd like to give you a full reply,but unfortunately I don't have enough time now,I have to study. But now I get the problem,you don't know the difference between Bottom,Submissive,Masochist and Slave. There are Dominant roles that are also masochist...."If he was a masochist he would have been acting as how he was acting when he was filming now thats a masochist Azusa but nope that one was fake. " that's a slave or can be a submissive NOT a masochist. Actually masochist aren't weak like you think they are (you are saying azusa is strong so he can't be a maso.) anyway,I know that your body can react in a different manner from your mind,but feeling pleasure(he said enjoy) after having sex with someone who is abusing you(MORE than once in this case) physically , is masochism.Who could stand being raped repeatedly,the psychological damage would be too much for a normal person. Kusakabe himself felt it was so disgusting that he was willing to break the rules. And just to clear the matter,masochist can be abused too if they end up with the wrong sadist. You can actually read masochist who consider love to be only for weak people,some of their typical behaviour consist in: Incites angry or rejecting responses from others ,Rejects or renders ineffective the attempts of others to help him of her. I may be wrong,but I don't think I am saying he is NOT being abused,I am saying that his behaviour makes me think of a maso,and there are different types of masochists and sadists.

I like your reply a lot! (: good to read a good response,I agree with. He may be a maso. or not,I don't know...but after reading some comments from people who are masochist(physical,emotional or both) it was a documentary on BDSM I thought he had some traits. Anyway, I agree with you,and I am curious to know what he'll do on chapter9.

Masochism is not necessarily sexual, it has only become that way recently,masochism is masochism, whether it's sexual or not.

I understand where you are coming from. I tend to try to persuade people there is difference between a sexual kink and an unhealthy relationship, but I know things can get messy and the line may be blurred.

If we start talking about emotional masochism (staying in relationships with people who cause them pain), half the people I know suffer from it. Our needs can fears can be so complex.