Man siwoo

I agree in parts on the issue of motherhood. We cannot forget that despite the rationality we are still animals, we are still susceptible to instinct and hormones. When a child is born the mother has a cascade of hormones that makes her "become attached" to the newborn. Every time she goes to breastfeed, more of these homomons are released. Even the woman's ear is more sensitive to the high-pitched sound, which is why the cry of the newborn is much more painful, just so as not to leave it left there to die. The bond between mother and child is designed to exist even before birth. The father's bond must be built. This does not make one more important than the other, it is just that the father bond is more active, requires much more effort

This also explains why there are so many children without fathers out there, and the number of children abandoned by their mothers is much smaller. It's kind of scary think about how much people are manipulated by instinct and hormones. This does not mean that any woman should have children, of course. I just wanted to bring the biological aspect to the question

Biology has really actually less to do with it, since we are animals there is a large degree of animals in the animal kingdom that eat their children out of anxiety. so hormones "can" influence a mother's attachment.
but most of the time it has to do with the deficiency in nutrition and stress levels that determine a bond and the medicine from the epidural that influences the endorphins with bonds.
When we are observing other species of animals that cohabitate this planet with human species, humans have a very different technical tactic that plays a big importance in what is natural for us.

and that is society

a large number of things are unnatural including epidurals, c-sections, including the way children are birth on the back instead of an Indian position.

there are a lot of things that have been changed so we cannot exactly measure everything the same as we do with other animals we cohabitate with. I do agree that the bonding process is a little stronger with women because of how society grooms them, but a large percent of animals in the animal Kingdom's when males see abandoned pups will try to nurture them like mothers do.

so I don't think that cis or trans men are all that bad or unatural at nurturing, and also birthing if you want to be technical(with science gender wont be a obstacle for reproduction).

But there is such a big percentage of kids out there that never got put in an orphanage and are unlucky enough to be raised in families where the mother because she had kids are suffering from abuse from their mothers in many different ways.


There's such a huge expectation placed on women that often times they feel obligated to do that. And when they have kids their life is ruined and they take it out on their children, the reason why these cases don't get reported is because it is familial bonds and a lot of times the kids don't want to cause any more problems than they already have which is why in some cases adopted kids are lucky to be able to be separated from the ones that admit that they don't want kids.

Sadly regardless of our opinions the reality is just because you are a cis female, trans, intersexed, black, white, Latina, Asian or European woman doesn't obviously give any of us the ability to be a mom when we are born. Some of us women in our huge pool of I diversity and cultures despite our intuitions say we dont want kids. Listen to society or men and It ruins many lives. instead of admitting that we just aren't fit. To be honest I wish those women were more honest because they dont realize just how much stress they can save if they just lived their own journey with out peer pressure. And if they wanted kids adopt, so you earn the right to love a precious life. Instead risking your health just to experience postpartum depression after birth and internalize that and take out on them as they grow up. Sad really but hey that's the reality.

┗( T﹏T )┛

Although the cultural factor has great impacts, it is not the only reason why the maternal bond is so intense, or that would not permeate all societies throughout history. I can't go into the gender issue, because my obstetrics classes were restricted to biological sex, but I don't think it has an impact, the construction of the bond for anyone other than the biological mother is the same as that of the father. Cortizol and oxytocin are fundamental in the affection process and these are precisely the ones that young mothers have in droves as soon as they finish the labor. beta-endorphins responsible for the desire to protect the newborn. The mere skin-to-skin contact of the mother-baby reduces adrenaline and norepinephrine. These are things that cannot be imitated, replicated or simulated. Caesarean sections performed at the appropriate gestational time have little influence on this.
And obstetrics is a gigantic world of hormone studies. You can't act like they're disposable or indifferent to the body. It is an area of extreme relevance for the biological sciences and for health, I have never met anyone or heard a professor say that the impacts were minimized by modernity because our species has not evolved significantly in the last 4 thousand years for this.
Talking about society to disconnect us from the animal world does not mean much. Have you seen the complexity of bees? Or the level of interactions and the degree of affective bonds that bonobos have?
Yes, there are still mothers who abandon their children, in nature there are also females who abandon their litters, but this percentage is not so relevant, or the species would have ended a long time ago.
Endocrinology is one of my areas of interest in specialization haha.
But we are still animals, much more than we would like to admit. If you want to browse the theme a little more (focusing on the species in general, and not only on reproduction) I recommend the book Sapiens by Yuval.
ps: it is not because I accept the biological aspect that I think we are limited to it, I just recognize that we are much more influenced than we like to think. I am also not advocating against adoption, for God's sake, that would be sick. I'm not even saying that hormones are enough to make a woman a good mother. But it helps. This theme is endless discussion among anthropologists, sociologists, doctors and biologists. Even psychologists get in the wheel

As a double major in physics and psychology I can tell inform you, that there is not much to it honey.


Like I said society unlike our other animal species we cohabitate with, biology actually has just a small percent to do with Bonds in childhood.

A large majority of it has to do with the stress of childbirth itself. Endorphins run in both male and female an intersexual species all the three Sexes share endorphins equally.

But when you enter do something like medicine which is a drug, in the body designed to kill pain in a scenario like childbirth in Psychology when you feel good about something it increases your endorphins in your brain.

It's no different than the studies of fathers who experienced the birthing of their child they have an increased amount of endorphins even by the smell and touch of the child.

It is not exactly perhaps per se biological but it is a groomed Behavior by human Society.

almost you can say like an imprint in the human species that has developed over the years.

There are a lot of factors other than biology that are bigger components to a mother and child, or father and child bond regardless of their chromosomes or gender.( even though gender and sex are almost exclusively indifferent in behavior or future reproduction options in the view of science but for the sake of you not knowing I'm just interjecting that point here. )

There are lots what's things to discover about humans, and what we know in the science Community about it changes every year as technology grows.

and our observation grows much like gender itself every being with an X chromosome that is tied to the very first species which was intersexed is capable of reproduction.

which means what you're describing about motherhood is replicates in any mutation after the intersexual species meaning male, female, trans male, and trans female all of them can reproduce and all of those mechanisms would work the exact same way.

the technology is there actually it's already being practiced Russia and Germany. This is why "I think" that at the end of the day psychology plays a bigger part in childbirth because a lot of numbers Point towards increased infertility rates and higher anxiety towards child birthing itself from a woman's perspectives.

because of the postpartum depression, that a majority of women face but don't talk about with the dissociation that they have with their child because there is still that animal imprint that comes from the stress, malnutrition, drugs (painkillers), and the mental health during childbirth.

So there are a lot more factors when it comes to society and what it has changed about the meaning of bonds, with each other and how we behave with each other.
Yes I'm fully aware of social behavior in the animal kingdom. how ever do you see your pet bee or pregnant poodle calling you and your friends over to a "gender" reveal party or a baby shower?

No lol, marvelous ways of technology and society have change and groomed humans into a species that other primates or mammals can't relate with. Because they still eat their babies, leave their children in the dens and hunt for food, or abandoned them because they are runts or sick, kill other babies if they need food or are stressed.

How ever in psychology it's a well known truth that if you took away all the luxurious things like phones, rules, babysitters, daycare, stores, police, shelter, income, csection, drugs, and monogamy you will see the real version of motherhood. And often times it's unpredictable when it's a situation involving feral humans.
I have witnessed many accounts of bio mothers who have thoughts of harming their infants, and they dont because we sedate them with perspective drugs to help them cope. But do you think they will take surveys or be open about it? No because society will tear them apart, and also those are the one's who are brave enough to seek help. I'm scared to contemplate the number of bio moms who don't seek help.

Yes it's true I did agree with you I think that any woman regardless of her gender are naturally pulled towards fertility, but a big chunk of that is because they give you dolls when you're a little girls. instead of monster trucks, spaceships, tools and bicycles. instead we little girls get vacuum cleaners, kitchens, baby dolls, Barbie dolls, princess crowns and everything else that has a large effect on how people view fertility and where it belongs in the species. that same oppressive feeling has held cis, intersexed,
And trans women in the standard of expecting to birth children for thousands of years.

I don't think you're entirely wrong, but I think that you have a lot left to learn about those women who do have something to say about why you might be open to a different perspective from their circumstance.

I was once like you to a degree until I started witnessing the aftermath of reality of the world we are currently in. I mean cis, intersexed and trans womens health has only just been recognized by the boards of science just in the past 200 years lol. There is so much left to learn and so much uncharted territory. Given that cis male health has been in practice for at least 4000 years. When were treated as deformities of cis men. So even I had my mind open to what the future and present ment.

There are lots of cases in bio moms where it wasn't the way you described, the children are removed after birth due to the child's safety and well being. I want to believe that biology plays huge part in what makes a woman more susceptible to being a mom, but the truth is it does not do much. Unless a person wanted a baby wholeheartedly but the truth is is that there are millions of children out there who at the moment they grew up and started being cognizant to the environment around them but their bio mothers never loved them. It's sad but it's reality.

I just had two considerations about it. One is when tell about endorphins, yes, it happens with bouth sex, but all hormonies envolved on after birth related to the bond, on same proportion are impossible, prolactin as exemple. Leaving aside the issue of motherhood, but remaining on the hormonal question, have you seen the percentage of women in prison who committed the violation during the period of PMS? Over half. Considering a cycle of 30 days and PMS of 3, this is a large enough number so that it cannot be ignored. Going for men, it is interesting to observe the influence of testosterone on impulsivity and aggressiveness, the number of XYY (yes, double Y syndrome, which, as is known, produce much more testosterone) that are trapped is also very high. Hormones had a huge influence on behavior. What’s depression but lack of serotonin?
Other point is you’re only talking about societys with cultures close to yours, your are no taking in consideration so many others. Others without police, drugs, cirgury, dolls, technology, gender as we know or family planning, where yes, sometimes they kill children but they, as a society, still exist. I can talk about so many indigenous communities where there is infanticide, in Brazil there is one, in which when twins are born, for example, the weakest is killed. There are several where there is the practice of murdering babies with disabilities. But they all continue to exist. Womens are responsible for babies, although the raising model envolve all community. High number of infanticides, but not high enough to end a population. They all have this in common, the maternal bond in the postpartum period. It does not mean it is 100% effective, but it is effective enough to keep them existing. And it is something that permeates the culture. My point is only about how the female body is designed to make the mother become attached to the baby, while in fatherhood the psychological aspect itself is much stronger. It does not mean that there are no exception or that this bond will be the strongest throughout childhood.
I am not ruling out the cultural impact, and the psychological aspects of motherhood. I'm just saying that they alone don't explain everything, things that the endocrine aspect explains easily. It is difficult to measure the importance of each one.

I love talking about biology, gender and psychology. it is the reason why I majored in both, but I think you're putting more emphasis on things that are completely not measurable because of the circumstances not being relatable.

I really could talk about this stuff for days because I find psychology amazing, because in the end mental health Will trumpet biology, on most days. the way you're feeling a lot of times due to how your influenced by your external forces dictate your behaviors it's just a pretty big observation that hasn't gone away.

Women who commit crimes are criminals. "PMSing" is not an excuse to be a bitch, the only time "PMSing" is a worry is if there are medical repercussions going on down there that need to be looked at. Otherwise you are in complete control of your choices not your hormones.

What is interesting to note is that is that I think you're giving hormones little bit too much credit for their impact on certain subjects. Hormones are responsible for the development of secondary and sexual behavior now that is a lot of things actually. But again one could say that all of the serotonin and endorphins you're describing are within cis men that are not trans women and they too can experience various phenomenon based on those substance levels.

while I am open to the idea that biology impacts motherhood to a large standard I have to go with the variables that have been researched through the animal kingdom and through psychological circumstances where we've been able to study patients.

And honestly there is very little differences between the survival instincts out of the genders they are pretty feral.

And in the case of postpartum depression it is not something measured in percentage it's more so measured by the circumstances of each individual. Some women can't control the urges with prescriptions and some can't and we have to remove the children before they are harmed.

There are so many factors when it comes to childbirth in general but the introduction of science using drugs, and societies grooming of women have really put a new spin on what to expect from the mental state of parents during birthing process. At the end of the day each person is different just because somebody has a vagina or somebody has a penis doesn't mean that they will act the same way you expect them to because they have hormones.

at the end of the day psychological factors play the most important role and how that person behaves.

I understand exactly where you're coming from, I even acknowledged the fact that you are partially correct on a couple of things that us cis women, trans women, or intersexual women are more apt to be drawn to fertility because of outside influences and psychological factors dictating our choices. But ultimately biology does not motivate you to have children that is a cognitive choice that you make regardless a biological factors.

I like to consider myself a non-biased person because I've been exposed to many different situations and I've listened to a lot of different people from different backgrounds and cultures, I speak three different languages. And I have also studied extensively for many years in gender, history, Science, psychology and sociology.

But I also believe in simplifying things that are over complex, that describe very simple things.

Hormones control a lot of things even your mental health and the health of your body. but what they cannot do is make you a good mom or make you a good dad that is all psychological.

To the extent of the traits that you experienced during birth are for a majority already a part of your personality.

If your character including aspects of nurturing then you will experience all of the good things during birth that you just described. But if you don't have that as a part of your character, and you struggle with mental health issues, or there are just not very many aspects of maternity your character. Then a physical change often play a very negative role of the mental health of both parents.

I think a lot of times where people make a lot of mistakes is, is that sex(the act) plays a big part and why kids happen. Because there is increased endorphins during sex, however I think the aftermath of reality that sets in slowly Creeps in over the term of pregnancy for both parents and depending on their mental state that's where the law gets involved and takes the child away because ultimately they shouldn't have had kids, and in my opinion there should be a law to sterilize both cis/trans/intersex men and cis/trans/intersex women who cannot handle kids after deep evaluation of the circumstances.

I think that we are naturally going to have different perspectives based on our educational background. I think that if you saw the psychological point of view where you could see the circumstances around parents during childbirth that are different than what you're describing I think it would broaden your horizon a little bit.

Not necessarily in a good way but just like the way it did for me just made me kind of see how selfish people are and how dark-sided culture and Society have groomed people into broken individuals and how it's so devastating on everybody around them. If you are knowledgeable to tell were the cause and effect is coming from.


Like I said 4000 years of cis male Health based science, and you put your reliability and trust in 200 years of cis/trans/intersexed women's studies? that are just being certified into the Border science?

I think it's almost unfair but required of women in every culture ethnicity and origin to educate themselves. If we truly want to know more about their own bodies because men have been ahead of the game for a long time due to the evolution of society. Just 60 years ago science said that men were naturally smarter and more capable because their brains are bigger. How they even said that the Earth was flat. Science has said a lot of things doesn't make it true. Honestly if you do think about how behind science is to a certain standard it's actually kind of scary how much we don't know.

but yet we perpetuate a lot of procedures in science on the people telling them this is what they are instead of acknowledging that we don't even know. we are just shooting in the dark hoping to find some questions to answer the simple question of why.

Any who if I had a child I would try my best to keep myself neutral in how I raised them because I want them to come to the assumptions of what they want to do when they grow up.

if they want kids and a family that's awesome, if they don't that's awesome lol, honestly what matters most is their happiness and they're feeling of contribution that they want to feel in society. Because there are so many factors I can't control about the way Society is going to make them feel about their bodies and the capabilities of who they are, that I will have to fight against every day to explain to them that this is the world and the times that they live in. And that as long as they believe in themselves Anything is Possible. I wouldn't say that makes me the best parent in the world but I think that makes me a prepared parent and empathetic towards a individual that will soon be independent.

If you are a cis/trans/intersexed woman your purpose is not to be tied to your genitals. if you are a cis/ trans/ intersexed man your purpose is not to be tied tell your genitals. if my child tells me that they are non-binary or something of that nature where gender is not exactly important to them then. I would tell them that your worth is not measured by someone else's expectations of the genitals that you may or may not have. Ultimately what matters the most is your happiness in a healthy way, do what you want to do but be good lol ╮(￣▽￣)╭