This looks like there will be plenty of family fun ahead. Looking forward to it.
A lot of people have commented on 'sex' and 5 yr olds and how they don't behave that way. Well, actually some do. But unlike adults who understand the ramifications of emotions and actions, children don't, they just feel and act what they do in honesty and, yes, innocence. I have memories (repeated) of a boy who was 4 and very eager for sexual experience when I was kindergarden. I'm sure as he grew older he learned that kind of behavior wasn't ok and stopped, but not because he stopped wanting. And it isn't just boys, some girls are very early too in developing a sexual instinct, but it doesn't mean that any child will act on it.
While I'm enjoying this for what it is at the moment and not taking it too seriously, I do wonder about something. As I understood it the cop ghost (who wasn't really a cop when not possessed?) was just passing looking for an innocent and naive victim when Yuuji just happen to be harassed by a pervert in front him. He even had cards made in advance. Aside from an awful lot of trouble to go to for every single meal, he seems to be a psychic ghost who knows where the perverts are going to strike.
I know I started by saying I don't take this seriously, and I don't, but I find myself scratching my head going "huh??" trying to figure out just what did happen. It even bothers me more than the 'unseen sex in crowded train' incident.
This is all very very dramatic, which suits its setting, and just as one drama seems resolved we move on to the next. Nor is it very realistic, but I don't mind.
What I will mind is if the mangaka somehow makes Kazatora's father one of those 'misunderstood' types, you know the trope; seemed a mean jerk (and was) but had good intentions all along so we should forget and forgive all! I just hate those. How you do something can be as important as what you're trying to do. And frankly I can see little justification for making a boy think for his entire life that fatherly approval was totally dependant on acting performaces just so in the end he would become a great actor or something.
This is heart rending for us readers who obviously have, if not an all-knowing POV, then a better knowing POV. But consider how little Honna actually has said and done to convince Murakami of his intentions. Add to that, that this would be a complete lifestyle change for Murakami. It wouldn't be true to life if Murakami with so little reason from Honna himself should so alter his sexual orientation without some inner struggle.
I've seen a lot of comments about the whole 'best friend' cliché. It's a valid point. From the yaoi perspective the plot of the straight friend who doesn't 'get' his feelings for his longtime (childhood) friend who then must suffer unrequitted love, is rather overused. And only in yaoi does it work out in the end every time. But then yaoi is often to a fault predictable and unimaginative.
However, it actually does happen often in enough in RL that way irrespective of gender. Childhood friends growing up, and while one mentally and emotionally starts to see the other romantically at some point, the other still thinks in 'friend terms. Sometimes, those feelings are never returned, but sometimes it is exactly something that forces the other friend to see the that person in a new way and reevaluate their feelings. But it is never easy to set aside a longheld mental view, emotions and perception just like that. Most people struggle.
So I suppose I'm saying that while it is trite and cliché, the reason we're sick of it has to do with yaoi as a genre, and not with the cliché itself. It actually is true to life.
Personally speaking I have no issues with cliches, per se. Cliches become so for a reason. Lots of folks end up dating in and among their circle.
Every story has been done before, for the most part -- the challenge is in how the author approaches it. Sometimes they can use all of the usual tropes in such a compelling way that you realise why it became a trope in the first place. Others pull us in by subverting it. What's frustrating is when one can see a story's potential but the execution is lazy -- and I think this volume qualifies. Miyoshi sensei is pretty good at getting into the minds of various characters -- and in this volume she does this for everyone except Taka-kun. (She goes so far as to give senpai his own chapter.) So, at this point, it reads as if she has a trope that she herself has set up to subvert...but will follow the normal template for noo good reason beyond the fact that the template exists.
(There's even a case to be made that it's a problematic one...where you have two gay characters that are seemingly compatible but mangakas always end up pairing the self-identified gay MC with a predominantly hetero character who is "gay for him" alone.)
Yaoi may be a predictable genre but that's in fact no different than any other fictional genre in any other sphere, whether it be romance, science fiction, fantasy, western etc in different literary spaces and cultures. Cliches are only a problem when executed poorly, esp when we can see a clear path to doing something even slightly different with it.
I'm hoping Vol II will better present Takaya's POV because there is little to nothing here that really makes his case persuasive when compared to the senpai, beyond the childhood link: not in the way he's drawn or his personality. As it stands he was cuter and more charismatic as a kid than he is in college lol. My two cents.
I totally agree with you--it made me want him to have a relationship with the sempai more than takaya, as the targeted part of the main couple. Because the author didn't elaborate on takaya--it portrayed him as almost seemingly cruel and dense to a fault. It made him appear like he wanted both a girlfriend, but to also be able to monopolize his best friend and trying to imply a dominance of that he was the "hero" and while he was the "heroine" and other put downs like "if you were a girl!", and getting upset when said friend was trying to create some space. If the author had approached the other perspective during the situations (like wondering why he wanted his bestie to be a woman so bad, maybe implying deeper affections?) I may have been on board with the childhood friend couple, but the story's perspective turned out more of a one-sided affair. It made me feel like Takaya just wanted something he thinks was taken from him (like a posession), rather than a significant other. Don't get me wrong, I still enjoyed it, tropes and all, just, idk. . . Sempai/sensei appealed to me more because I could understand his character, his motivations, and his personality. I hope for something more in Vol 2, one way or another!
The problems you have with the cliché is why I think we tend to get sick of it, beside it just plain being overused. Of course every genre in every type of fiction has clichés, but some more than others. And you're right, a cliché is no problem when done well or inventively.
I read mysteries. With a really good mystery I don't know whoddunit untill the end despite of having all the clues. However, in some I figure it out fairly early on as it is obvious, but either because of the characters, setting (f. ex. historical), humor, or context keeps the story so readable that it doesn't matter. But in many cases, if the mystery part of a mystery falls flat it becomes a chore to read. The same is true of a cliché. Using a overused cliché and trope within any genre means that it is down to how you do it (everything I just listed up earlier).
My original point was that the issue is not the cliché but how it is done (and perhaps overdone) in yaoi. And that the discussion was perhaps slightly off focus by targeting the cliché as whole rather than just (again!) being poorly done. I'm not saying that most comments didn't point out the faults of the manga, just that they seem to blame the cliché.
Ah, okay. I wonder tho if the ire is not against something as basic as the "childhood friends" cliche, but this specific version in which the one pining is gay and the other is a Clueless to the Point of Cruelty Hetero Who Will Fall In Love but Only with the Gay Friend Because He Definitely Doesn't Like Men At all (tm). I know that's what pissed me off lol. That version is problematic, even if it is well executed.
Miyoshi sensei twists it even further by including another gay character who is about as close as one could objectively get to a better romantic partner in every sense. She had an opportunity to devalue senpai's Ideal Boyfriend stock in the scene where Touma asks him to make him forget about Takaya. Senpai could have ignored every negative non-verbal signal Touma gave him--esp when yaoi is a genre that runs roughshod over every and any idea of consensual sex--as a way to signal that Takaya is The One. But she doesn't lolol. EH? I am truly curious about how she will turn things around in Vol II so maybe Miyoshi sensei knows exactly what she's doing.
I also know that mangakas are pretty upfront in admitting when they do story lines because readers or the editor requested it...
I hope against hope that some of my assumptions will prove groundless. As an aside, I really enjoyed engaging with you -- I don't often get to have these kind of discussions about yaoi manga. I'm very grateful to you ٩(๑❛ᴗ❛๑)۶.
Yes, exactly. Earlier on in the story I was worried that Touma might turn out to be a cutter or something--all those remarks about wanting to cut his fingers to make them smaller aka more feminine. I wanted to cry. Or maybe bulemia (when he kept on going to the bathroom every time the gf showed up...). Miyoshi sensei did everything to make Touma a vulnerable but earnest and sympathetic MC; Senpai a perceptive, understanding cinnamon roll; and Takaya a bland ass lol. He's not even drawn in a particularly cute or sexy style so one could say, ah, he's horrible but sexy as sin, that's the trope we're working with. I hope for more in Vol 2 too (づ￣ ³￣)づ.
I definitely agree with your opinion of the manga, and like you hope that the mangaka does something to rescue Takaya's character from condemnation. I think we've all experienced the pain of reading a manga hoping that the mangaka was just stringing us along and was going to do something, only to find that, no, it really was it. That empty disappointed feeling...
I think a great many of the problems that persist not just in yaoi but in both manga and anime are due to the faults of the Japanese industry playing it too safe. I think they tend to have a out dated idea of readership/viewer; the otaku or teen, primarily male, loner neet, etc., but my impression is that the market is demographically far more diverse and growing more so both in Japan and internationally than the industry allows for. Hopefully in time, with growth that will change, allowing for chances to be taken and variance.
While we've been discussing the 'best friend' cliché or the 'superior/underling', I've been wondering how it would have worked in another setting. If we took those oversused tropes but put them in a historical setting f.ex. ca. 1400 Japan (1200-1600 is very much under represented in both manga and anime), but still made the personal relationships the primary focus, would it still feel as trite and cliché? Somehow I think not.
I also really enjoy being able to have a FRIENDLY exchange of honest opinions, with respect on both sides. So consider this a mutual appreciation society. :)
Ooooooo, I had the *exact* same thought about whether using it in a different sub-genre would have really "refreshed" the cliche so to speak: whether fantasy or historical (or both).
The best example I can think of is Ginza Neon Paradise by Unahana. It's set in the Showa period, so it's a commonly used setting, which gave almost all the exact same features--the long suffering gay MC with the careless (womanizer) bestie-- a heightened resonance and emotional meaning. There's even a hot senpai who offers to sweep the gay MC away. I suppose that's not a title that really refreshed anything but man, it was so well done. The unrequited love was soul tenderising and each character's motivations made complete sense esp when one considered the mores of the time.
The next one that sorta kinda fits (it's a stretch) is Hari no Hana but it's more of an epic historical fantasy with romantic subplot...rather than a straight romance.
I've only just started reading yaoi a few months ago tho so I'm pretty new. Your observations on the industry make a lot of sense to me. Before I put it down to "cultural differences" but then there are always those authors who manage to strike a unique line. Not that many tho...(for me, so far). I didn't know whether that was down to simple odds or that the industry wasn't making an effort to recruit and nurture more of those talents.
(Yay, mutual appreciation!)
I appreciate this open dialogue--it reminds me of an Art or English critique except both sides are actually respectful and not bashing each other.
I have been also thinking about the "tropes" of yaoi, and I think there's a concept of 'tried and true' plots that many publishers, authors, and manga artists rely on to pull readers in. Some even create anthologies in tribute of them. All of them symbolize something more though, I believe. Just to name a few:
-Teacher-Student=role of authority, breaking the rules, risk, age/generation gap, forbidden love
-Boss-subordinate=power struggle, work vs play, workplace taboo, adult responsibilities, marital expectations, workplace relationships boundary
-Brother/Step Brother=societal taboo, close quarters, familial vs non-family relationship boundaries, boundary issues
-Childhood Friend pairing=developing feelings over time/strong sometimes adolescent emotions, fear of risking good friendship for something more, anxiety, unrequited or unknown love, general boys love taboo concept package, sexual awakenings
-Monster/Creature/Demon-Human=supernatural encounter that oversteps the societal absurdity of homosexual or homoerotic relationships due to the absurdities of the supernatural character. Sometimes includes some sort of boundary, limiter, power struggle, "racial struggle", or demon/human taboo.
But mainly what I find is that they are familiar, yet can be spun in different ways. They can be done so well you don't even know or care that they are there.
The industry relies on these, perhaps, because there is a safeness to them and dependency that won't be so out there, so as to lose their readers. Many still break the tropes, but not for the larger majority of the industry (I have found). I have, however, seen a step in the innovative direction in the form of webcomics and more independent publishers and works that do not rely as heavy on a revenue stream.
Interestingly, yet somehow so obvious, al the tropes seem to all be related to different versions of taboo and especially different types of societal boundaries that surround the concept of 'forbidden' love. That concept also, oddly enough, lends itself to the underlying concept that BL (Boys Love, Shounen-ai, Yaoi) as still this 'exciting' subject of 'forbidden' in modern society (Japan or US or other).
Conclusion=Yaoi boundaries mirror social boundaries, which are portrayed in some of the more common story tropes. (Yet can still be amazing if done well, btw).
That's just one theory anyways!! Can't wait for progression in Vol 2!!
Oh some of it is definitely due to cultural differences as well, such as a greater emphasis on gender roles and stereotypes. There also seems to be a greater emphasis than in the west on social status, even in schools, which seems to result in a idol culture more extreme. Further the whole 'confessing' thing which often seems impersonal, based on no or little actual conversation having taken place, knowing little about the object of one's affections besides their looks and possibly school repute. Then there's marriage interviews, (I actually looked this up to see how accurately this was portrayed) and people really do seem to be more interested in career prospects and appearance than personal qualities when choosing a partner, and will only meet 3-4 times before making a choice! And while these are generalities and most certainly can't be applied to any individual, it does say something about a trend in Japanese culture as a whole.
I also think it explains hosts and host cafés as a social phenomenon.
Conversely, if you were to ask me what we in the West could learn from the Japanese, I would say politeness and good social conduct. Confucius believed that having clear code of social conduct and always knowing how you ought to behave even if you didn't feel like it was perfectable. As he said even the best man he knew wasn't good all the time but he always did as he should. We don't always think or feel as we should, but that doesn't mean we have to act on it. Individual liberties can be taken too far to the cost of any society.
I only got into anime and manga about 1 1/2 yrs ago at the urging of a much younger sibling. Being a big reader (fantasy too!) and used to discussing the merits and faults of any given book I find it odd this attitude of 'no critique allowed' that some have. I could understand 'no bashing or trashing' but that isn't the same as critiquing. But I have often mentally compared manga/anime plotlines to similar genre plotlines in books for variety, being predictive, using the same tropes, etc. and I can't help but feel that somehow book authors manage to be far more creative. My conclusion is that the industry somehow represses the individual creativeness. The industry is still primarily producing for the Japanese market, despite there being a large international market, meaning both the publishers and studios tend to be small. There needs to be some restructuring in how they do things to take greater advantage of the international market. Compare with games which are designed from the start to be aimed at the international market.
This is all somewhat off-topic. But I think if you take those two issues in conjunction, culture and industry, you can't help but get a great many tropes and clichés. We get them in TV and Hollywood as well, but due to various factors, there is also room certain amount of variety and risk. But I think we've all noticed how a series, which originally brought something new to a genre, after a few seasons (and the good scriptwriters have been replaced) start to fall back on the good ol' tropes. And then there are those that never brought anything new, but were just so really fun or well written that you didn't care.
A great deal of erotic fantasy is about the forbidden or taboo in someway. It's why it is a turn on. Strangely, what we find erotic in fantasy we don't IRL. Just about all of us would not like to be raped or sexually assaulted, and any suggestion of incest with an actual sibling would make us sick. Yet for some reason, it has long been known to psychologists that we humans have this odd sexual quirk. Just about everybody has a sexual fantasy at some time that involves the forbidden or taboo, exactly because it is forbidden.
Yaoi/BL is using well known erotic themes. Sometimes the emphasis is on the erotic, at other the romantic. But that doesn't mean that they can't use these themes in different ways. How many office stories have you read where setting, plot, and characters were all but standard? You're right about webcomics being more innovative than published mangas, but that only highlights the faults of the industry. My personal belief is that it isn't the mangakas who aren't able to be more creative, but that the industry that represses such creativeness by wanting the safe bet every time.
I keep wondering though about yaoi pushing boundaries. Every time an adult or late teen character states that two men can't possibly be together physically, that it is abnormal, etc. I've seen this often enough to be bothered and can't help but wonder if this in any way true to life. Are Japanese teens so ignorant? I mean you couldn't get away with something like this for any kid over 14 in the West. Anybody over that age will know that not only gay people exist but that it means two guys together instead of guy and girl. And while they may not get the precise mechanics of it, they know it is possible and happens. So I doubt you'd find it a norm to depict older teens and college students reacting with surprise at the very idea to same sex relationships. And somehow I also doubt that it would be a surprise for anyone of that age in Japan. So why does this trope persist in yaoi? Who is the mangaka trying to convince? Not the reader. So what's the point? I just don't get it as a 'pushing boundary' argument. It makes more sense that if the mangaka or publisher didn't want to be accused of being a "corrupting influence" that it was stuck in as some social conservative values. But that is only a guess.
So we finally got something of a love scene and close to a mutual declaration of feelings. But somehow I've a feeling that it won't last and trouble will come. So how fragile is this new found 'love'?
And I can't help but miss the Kasan that for a moment had attitude and a bit of backbone, the one that threw Igen out of his own bedroom. I really wish he'd stuck around some more. The one that wanted no more to do with games of revenge, or players of such games. Whatever happened to him?
Kasan have fallen in love.Our poor baby <3
that is true
I wonder if Akira (amongst other reasons) pulled a bit away out of concern for Haruto? But then couldn't leave him in doubt as to his love. I also (along with everyone else) really wonder how the mangaka will resolve this happily. I'm hoping it does have a HEA, though at the moment I don't see how. At the same time I just don't quite get a tragic vibe from this, but I could be very wrong.
I really liked this. It's nice to read a story that has depth to it. So why am I not raving about it? I'm not sure exactly, but I think though all the individual parts of the story were perfect on their own, characters, setting, plot, etc., there's something missing in how it comes together and I can't put my finger on it. And it really bothers me because I'd like to be so in love with this manga. But don't get me wrong, it is still damn good.
you just captured what I felt perfectly :)
Agreed!
This is one of those relationships that should definitely end, yet I still want them together. Just seems like they need to sort out a ton of personal stuff first before we can have our HEA. Until then it's a rather painful read but good.
Oh my and good gracious can't believe there was an update. Very grateful.
I do have one observation to make. There have been a few comments made as to the way and means of how our MCs coomunicate and act their emotions, and I would like to remind everyone that they aren't supposed to be more than 15-16 yrs old. Teens are not known for their emotional wisdom, maturity or balance, especially not if they have other reasons to be out of balance. And within the context of the story and these two as indidviduals I find their behavior quite consistent with normal human psychology. Though far from ideal behavior.