YourMochi's Topics (198)

yap session

Facts session ...stay mad npc

Mochi, you should prob not go into the comments anymorepeople on here love hating on this manhwa so save your mental health and don’t look through them. It’s a waste of time arguing with them. Just saying since I see u replying to the haters. At the end of the day, these two will get together so seeing all the discourse is funny.

You are totally right from what I understood people will make up anything to hate something so I'll stop ...thank you for the advice:3

I don't think that a lot of the people who are criticizing the Webtoon are criticizing it for the right reasons, but have you actually tried to understand where people are coming from? You do understand that this Webtoon might potentially do the thing (if it hasn't already, which, I think it has) you're saying it isn't doing, right? Can I ask why you keep saying in other comments that Jaekyung hasn't been raping Dan?

Thank you for being kind enough to make a question for me but I got tired talking to people who can't understand what they read and just hate something cause they dont have anything else to do so im gonna stop answering :p ... have a nice day !

But I really do want to understand why you don’t believe it’s rape occurring here. What do you think I’m misunderstanding about the story to have come to a wrong conclusion? I don’t know about you but this is very important to me. Yes, the story is fictional, but coming to an incorrect conclusion about this has big, real life implications in terms of how we think about and approach rape and sexual assault and consent overall, so I want to get it straight.

You can go read my other comments elsewhere if you believe I’m just a blind hater. You’ll see that I’ve read the Webtoon and considered it seriously, and that while I do certainly have my critiques, I am willing to point out and discuss what it’s done well, too. I came to read this precisely to see whether or not the negative attention it was receiving was warranted or not.

I'm only gonna say he paid Dan for the sec as in prostitute and Dan had the choice to not accept his offer it's that simple

So can I present you with a hypothetical? If you were starving on the streets on the brink of death, and someone said they would give you food, but only if you had sex with them first, would you say no?

More importantly, would it be EASY for you to say no? Would it be easy for you to say no if you were starving and weak and had no other options to get food? No food banks around, no money, no one willing to serve you free food, or even give you the money to buy yourself something. Would it be easy for you to say no to that person, knowing that if you say no, you may not later get the opportunity to get yourself any food?

I don't know but I wouldn't expect charity from a stranger like what does that has to do with ? Everyone has problems but no one is obligated to give you money for free lol

Dude so but no one's gonna do charity and you can't expect some random to come pay your bills and all good like wth

And lastly you didn't answer with a simple yes or no you just use excuses for whatever reason.....Was Jk clear when he said that he will pay his dept in exchange for sex yes or no?

I'm not using excuses, I'm trying to talk you through a hypothetical exercise so that hopefully you can understand where I and many others are coming from when we say that what is occurring between Jaekyung and Dan is rape. The answer is yes, Jaekyung was clear. And also yes, Dan did not have to say yes to his offer.

What I'm trying to illustrate with my example is that just because someone is given the choice to do something, doesn't always mean it's a meaningful choice. And just because someone says yes to one thing, doesn't mean that they're saying yes to other things/doesn't mean that they deserve certain treatment.

In the example I'm trying to give you, it's not about whether or not the person offering you money owes you anything or not—they don't (technically) owe you anything, they're giving you the money of their own free volition on the condition that you have sex with them. It's about how the "choice" you're given is unfair and renders it not a real choice. It's not like me making the choice to have vanilla ice cream vs. chocolate ice cream, where there's no real consequences to which I pick. Here, your choices are to either starve and die, OR participate in sex you wouldn't otherwise participate in in order to continue to live. When your options are live or die, can it really be said that you have a choice? Would it really be fair of me to tell you to just choose to starve to death? Or that it was your fault for getting brutalized if you chose to live instead, and instead of having gentle sex, that person beat the shit out of you while doing it? Surely the answer is no, right?

This is similar to the situation that Dan is in when Jaekyung approaches him. Dan wasn't quite on the streets yet, but he was about to be. We see his home get demolished later and he would've been homeless if not for Jaekyung's money. He was very poor and in crippling debt. Even the doctor that comes to check in on him after Dan PASSES OUT from how brutally Jaekyang had been treating him says that he's malnourished—a condition you only get if you're starving and not eating the right foods. On top of that, his grandma was in the hospital with CANCER, which was putting him into even deeper financial trouble. Dan wasn't able to make any real/good money on his own either, since his former boss made it so that he couldn't get a job in his field and had to work odd jobs to sustain himself. On top of ALL that, Jaekyang is an MMA fighter with a temper. He regularly brutalizes people on a whim. If I'm remembering correctly, Dan walked into the apartment that first time at the moment that Jaekyung was beating up his ex, right? Dan had no reason to believe that he would be spared that brutality if he said or did the wrong thing. And Jaekyung is very popular, he has status. He could've also easily further ruined Dan's jobs prospects, and Dan, with no money or name of his own, wouldn't have been able to do much about it.

With all of that in mind, can you say that Dan had a real, meaningful choice in the matter of getting involved with Jaekyung? Can you say that it would've been easy for him to just say no to a life-changing amount of money? Money that would take him out of poverty? Money that could save his loved one? Is that a real choice to you? One where Dan wouldn't suffer major consequences either way?

I never blamed Dan for his choice but he knew that Jk is trash but he was clear like he did say it that whenever and wherever he wants to they will do it and Dan knew that he is toxic and all but still accepted it we all know why he did but that's was his only option on the other side tho it is Jk who is a stranger to Dan we all know what he is but as I said again he was clear like he would pay him only with those conditions and that's what makes the story sad ...rape is when one hasn't agree but Dan did and the reason doesn't matter at least not to Jk .....like why can you not understand it ??

Yet again you ignored the most important part and that is he paid for it

I'm not saying you were blaming Dan, and I'm not saying that Jaekyung had been ambiguous about what the agreement would be. The point is that Dan felt pressured into making a decision and doing things that he would not otherwise have done. If he was not in poverty, in crippling debt, taking care of a terminally ill grandmother, and having to work with a man who regularly uses intimidation and violence to get his way, he would not have felt pressured to work for Jaekyung and he would not have ultimately chosen to work with Jaekyung. Let's not forget that Jaekyung would have cancelled Dan's physical therapy gig ALTOGETHER UNLESS Dan agreed to have sex with him on top of it. I've already said how Dan was having trouble finding jobs in his own field—again, this would've been his only real opportunity to do this.

The point is that Dan does not have any real agency in this situation, he does not really have the luxury to just say no. He could've said no, but it would've come with severe consequences. Jaekyung knew this to an extent and that is why when Dan DOES first say no, Jaekyung just threatens to not pay him at all and find a different PT. And so if he can't actually say no, and he wouldn't have said yes if he was not in desperate circumstances, then he is still not being given a real choice. Not having a choice = non-consent. Non-consent = rape.

To clarify I'm not saying this isn't complicated. It is. There are many factors at play here and "choice" is in and of itself a very ambiguous concept when you actually start to interrogate it. If you don't want to see the first instance of Dan agreeing with having sex with Jaekyung as ultimately being rape/something very non-consensual then...like I disagree with you a lot on that but as long as you understand the power dynamics at play that make it UNFAIR and that Jaekyung was not at all right to make that kind of offer to Dan in the first place, that is, I think, more important to me than anything else.

But after that you can't say that each instance of intercourse between these two people was consensual. Dan may have agreed to sex but he did not agree to rough, brutalizing sex. He did not agree to verbal and physical and sexual abuse. And in fact he repeatedly expresses his pain, discomfort, and NON-CONSENT to what Jaekyung does to him. He tells Jaekyung to stop, or at least slow down or be gentler, and Jaekyung refuses. He asks Jaekyung if they can have sex elsewhere instead of in public and Jaekyung refuses. He asks if Jaekyung can use a condom instead of going in him raw and he refuses.

Let's use another hypothetical to demonstrate what I mean. If I offer you a drink, and you say yes to that drink, but I don't tell you that I've drugged your drink, did you consent to being drugged just because you said yes to my offer of a drink?

Jk didn't pressure him to accept the offer and there's consent when he accepts the money
Dan should search a different way to earn money at the end of the day cause before accepting his offer he saw how of an asshole Jk was and non consent when Dan got the money makes no senses ....we say the same things again and again there won't be an end to this

Dan knew that Jk was toxic and an asshole before the agreement so with the same mind I wouldn't accept it because I know you are toxic and trash .....am I making it clear?

And I can't call someone rapist when he paid for it and the other party accepted it

Doent mean that I support him for how he treats him or anything like that don't mix my words I never said I support what Jk does

I'm really glad that if you encountered someone like Jaekyung in real life and in similar circumstances as Dan, you would be able to say no to his face with such confidence. Me personally though, I understand Dan. If I saw the world's strongest man, an MMA fighter, slam some other dude's face into a wall after a small disagreement, before turning to me and then offering me money in exchange for sex, I might just cave because I would be so scared shitless of having my face caved in as well. And in fact, we do see Dan go through this exact thought process in the Webtoon. So.

It's also like—Dan HAD been trying to make more money, and, I'm assuming also looking into more ways of making more of it. His options were already so limited that he was working MULTIPLE jobs prior to Jaekyung. It wasn't going to save him, even Jaekyung rightly calls him delusional when Dan brings up his plan to slowly pay off his debts. Like can I ask, have you watched Squid Game? And also, answer my hypothetical. If I (ME, not Jaekyung) offered you a drink and I put drugs in it without you knowing and you accept the drink, did you also consent to being drugged? I promise there is a second part to this. Just answer this first one.

Hey have you heard about Jefferey Epstein? What do you think about Epstein's victims? Would you even call them victims?

I'm not intending to put words in your mouth, but if you keep coming up with excuses for what Jaekyung is doing/negating the non-consensual, wildly imbalanced power dynamic of it, then the inevitable conclusion is that you do support what he's doing, or at least, you're ambivalent enough to let it carry on and say that Dan carries responsibility that simply cannot/should not be attributed to him!!!

I genuinely want to ask a question though. You talk about how dan doesn't actually have a meaningful choice but then again, do you just want Jk to give his money out for free?

I also want to clarify that Jk didn't know about Dan’s financial crisis before the agreement. He didn't know he was in debt either. So saying he exploited him or forced him isn't valid at all. He threatened dan and right after he tells Dan to leave(chapter 2-3) mind you, dan still STAYED. Bro literally told Jk after that if he just puts it in that he might tear that he should prepare first.

Not to talk about how dan even lied about being experienced, Jk asked if he was and he lied? Why? Not to even talk about how Jk actually pauses to check on Dan and what does dan say? “No…you just startled me” Huhh? Rape?

Y'all mistake lack of consent for lack of comfort and it shows. If you really take your time to analyse Jinx, you'll find out that a scene explains something and the next action/reaction completely changes everything. Dan had a choice to leave but he stayed. He prostituted himself and that's a fact. He was aware of what he was doing, not to talk about how he even demand more cash the next time after the first.

I think you should stop saying he doesn't have a choice bc in fact, he does.

It's sexual assault. Not rape.

Omg thank you I'm not good with my English but this is exactly what I want to say !

No Dan wasn't scared or anything like that when Jk told him about his proposal ...Dan could just refuse his offer and leave

First no I haven't watched it second of all I wouldn't accept a drink from a strange not even from someone I spoke I few times so what's your point ?

I wish I had come online earlier when all these arguments were going off, you're welcome! Now let me wait for their reply bc I genuinely want to understand how they don't see this.

Domt know shir about thin nor do I care... like dude enough really you make things complicated for no reason the things are simple and clear

I honestly had enough with these people if you see previous comments they ignore some details to make what they say right and idk I find Jinx normal compare to other more popular ones which are worst but idk somehow no one's days anything bad about them ...anyway sorry for my yapping I advise you don't waste your time as I did ╮(￣▽￣)╭

Let me just try to understand @Akaito, they seem genuine.

Well he might be the only one xd

Had to respond to this one real quick: I think a lot of BL and, hell, the romance genre in general, regardless of the sexuality being portrayed, has issues with dealing with consent. This isn't a Jinx problem it's a cultural problem. It has to do with our general attitudes surrounding sex and consent, it has to do with capitalism, it has to do with misogyny and rape culture and much bigger shit than this Webtoon and this Webtoon alone. That is why it is important to me that I get people to understand where I'm coming from when I'm making the arguments that I'm making, it's because I'm worried about bigger things than this, and how it keeps manifesting in our art and culture over and over again. I am worried about how people treat people in real life who find themselves in Dan's situation. Sincerely. I am worried about how the mindset displayed not just here, with Jinx, but with coercion in general, carries over into real life.

1: Never said Jaekyang should give his money out for free although, yes, that would've been the kind thing for him to do. If we start getting into my opinions on the wealthy and wealth distribution and even prostitution and why it exists overall we'll really start going somewhere else. Ultimately I think it's in poor taste to offer money in exchange for doing something so intimate. Especially since, again, like I pointed out (and correct me if I have these details wrong, genuinely) Dan thought he was going to just be doing physical therapy, not sex work in addition. Jaekyang wouldn't have been giving up his money for free, he would've already been paying for one service, he then decided to add on another one and then made it difficult for Dan to say no to the additional one because if he said no to that, then he wouldn't even have been able to do the PT work. Am I mistaken?

2: Those are fair things to point out. On that I will admit you're probably right and I've forgotten some specific details/the specific order of events. If what you're saying is true then yeah, Jaekyang didn't specifically exploit Dan's financial crisis or debt prior to the agreement because he didn't know about it. I still can't rule out the use of intimidation and excessive force both before, during, and after the first interaction, though, and how that played into Dan's (non) choice. And I do also want to point out that, like. Jaekyang did not decide to cut things off after finding out about said financial crisis and did in fact explicitly say something along the lines of "I just bought you with cold hard cash" after paying off Dan's debt. He didn't have to do that. He did that to benefit himself, mostly, with the explicit intention of hanging that over Dan's head. Which is in fact...another coercion tactic.

3: Yeah even I thought it was stupid for Dan to lie in these moments. I don't have anything to say or add to that, bad move on his part, it would've been better if he were honest (though be for real: do you really think things would've gone differently if Dan hadn't lied? we know how much of a sadist Jaekyang is). There's part of me that wants to attribute this to Dan's overall character but honestly this feels like an instance of the author just...doing shit just to do it. That said, I don't know how/why Dan's experience or lack thereof would play into whether or not what he experienced was rape? And also like speaking of this incident overall, while Dan shouldn't have lied, isn't it equally just as wack that Jaekyang saw how uncomfortable Dan was and didn't try to put more effort into checking in on him more? If I'm remembering correctly, didn't Dan BLEED that first time? Like idk wouldn't that raise some red ass flags for you to stop or take it slow? Especially when the person you're fucking seems so scared and in pain overall??

4: To follow the above, consent isn't just about getting a yes and moving on—or at least, that isn't what I think it should be about. It should be about ensuring that everyone is feeling safe and comfortable and is, of course, really sincerely enthusiastically into what's going on. There's a vast difference between getting the jitters during sex because it's your first time or something vs. being afraid you are going to be harmed if you make the wrong move and then acting accordingly. I'm not claiming that Dan had ZERO choice, I'm saying that in the context of everything going on with him, whether they be directly attributed to Jaekyang or not, he does not actually have a real say in the matter. Sure, Jaekyang can't read his mind, and sure, Dan has a responsibility to speak up for himself to ensure his own safety—but Jaekyang is also responsible for helping to create an environment in which Dan feels safe enough to do that. I do not believe that he did that or even really tried at any point. I'm not saying Dan was completely unaware of what he was getting into, I'm saying that there was one thing he agreed to (sex) and other things he did not agree to (violent, aggressive sex). I've even said that with regards to their initial making of the deal, if you don't want to call THAT specifically rape, that's fine. It is a messy situation that ultimately does lie in a grey area and there are a lot of complex factors at play. But certainly after that, things, for me, become increasingly unambiguous.

What is your definition of sexual assault, what is your definition of rape, and why, in this discussion, is the distinction a worthwhile one?

Well you shouldn't take seriously something that isn't real because all people that read it have in mind that it isn't real story

Like look I'm sorry for the long paragraphs I just feel like I really want to make sure that I'm being clear and explaining myself well. I'm going to be honest I'm going to bat so hard for this because I see these kinds of arguments used against real life sex workers as a way to demean them and say other horrible shit about them, about how they ultimately deserve any treatment they get because "they can just find another job" and "they signed up for it." No. No one signs up to be abused. I think it's fucked up to blame those people for abuse they get instead of blaming their abusers. I think it's fucked up to try to dismiss the harm because they "willingly" signed up for the job. I think it's fucked up to go out of your way to make a distinction between sexual assault vs. rape, especially when the fact is that people can and do like to act like certain acts of sexual violence are more or less harmful than others "depending on the circumstances," that people who experience certain things don't deserve to feel traumatized, don't deserve to be upset about what happened to them, because they "asked" for it. There are a lot of people who really truly do sex work completely willingly and of their own volition. Then there are a lot of people who are in Dan's position, who do not have many if any other viable options for work, who end up turning to sex work and experience horrific shit because of it. And since we're here talking about a BL, it should be known that queer people—queer kids, especially, who have been kicked out of their homes for their identities—are ESPECIALLY more likely to go into sex work, and ESPECIALLY more vulnerable to the sexual violence that often comes with it.

These characters are fictional. I know that. I'm not stupid. I know Dan is not a real person with real agency and real thoughts and real feelings that can really be hurt. But the story that this thing is portraying IS real, to an extent, and the way that you think about this IS real, and the messages it sends out to people IS real. I don't know your attitudes on real life sex workers. I'm not claiming that this is how you think about them, I don't know, I can't actually claim that. But the responses to this makes me worried. That is all. I am just worried and frankly a bit sad at the idea that you might look at people in real life going through something like this and think to yourself, "well, it's sad, but they signed up for it, so."

I want this story to have been about something real. I wanted it to be. Genuinely I "enjoyed" it at first because of what felt like a realistic, more than believable portrayal of an abusive relationship, of the abuse of wealth, status, and power that so often occurs between those with those things and those without it. I don't hate this Webtoon for portraying the relationship it's portraying, I hardly hate it at all, I'm just disappointed. And even then I am genuinely willing to see how it plays out because I'm curious, I want to see if and how the author can manage to properly handle this guy's inevitable redemption arc. I am again, principally concerned with how it's being received.

If you don't understand any of what I've said here then I can only really hope someone or something else, a person or time or experience, that is a better teacher than I am, eventually changes your mind. I don't really know what else I can do to convince you or how I could communicate what I mean any better than this.

“Jaekyang wouldn't have been giving up his money for free, he would've already been paying for one service, he then decided to add on another one and then made it difficult for Dan to say no to the additional one because if he said no to that, then he wouldn't even have been able to do the PT work. Am I mistaken?”

I feel Jaekyung is a very critical person when it comes to spending his money. Like I said before, he wasn't aware of Dan’s financial situation. Jk’s source of income is mainly to resolve his jinx before a match. He never needed a physical therapist(he admits in chap 2-3). I understand that getting a job and assigned otherwise can be quite frustrating but it is still a choice to leave or stay. Dan has currently left Jaekyung, did he die?

“Jaekyang did not decide to cut things off after finding out about said financial crisis and did in fact explicitly say something along the lines of "I just bought you with cold hard cash" after paying off Dan's debt. He didn't have to do that. He did that to benefit himself, mostly, with the explicit intention of hanging that over Dan's head. Which is in fact...another coercion tactic.”

You're right. That's a coercion tactic. Jk’s def wrong for that, however, it doesn't change the agreement they had, it just prolongs the act. I also wish Dan should've been more open about what he wanted when they're atleast not having sex. I wished he would've voiced his opinions about the agreement a little better after or before the first encounter. I wish he would've been honest about himself before the agreement, in the sense that Jaekyung won't assume he's already a whore to play with.

“ (though be for real: do you really think things would've gone differently if Dan hadn't lied? we know how much of a sadist Jaekyang is).”

Yes, 100%. If not, why would he ask in the first place? Just look at the way bro fingered the life out of Dan like he's had many dicks before lmao.

“ isn't it equally just as wack that Jaekyang saw how uncomfortable Dan was and didn't try to put more effort into checking in on him more? If I'm remembering correctly, didn't Dan BLEED that first time? Like idk wouldn't that raise some red ass flags for you to stop or take it slow? Especially when the person you're fucking seems so scared and in pain overall??”

I feel you should go read that chapter again. See how Jk notices, what he says, and how he reacts. The dude is rough I swear, he even said it himself “Since you're experienced, I guess I don't have to go easy on you then”. Jaekyung was like why is dude behaving like this? He then proceeds to ask but Dan still says he's okay overall and that's like a leading way for Jk bc he prob cares about resolving his Jinx at that moment. That's basically how he treats his whores. I'm not even sure they noticed he bled. Poor Dan. So yes, Lying was def a huge impact overall.

To simply put it bc I'm feeling sleepy, I'm sorry. Rape could be called sexual assault but not all forms of sexual assault could be called rape. By sexual assault, I mean sexual violence, sexual abuse as the list goes. In my view, consent could be given and taken back and also given again. The treatment Dan receives is abuse, there are also threats but that gets debunked when he asks Dan to leave if he can't take it anymore. Jaekyung was ready, phone in ear to call another. But as expected, Dan stops him.

I don't see that jinx as rape or lack of consent. I see it as a lack of comfort where they agree to fuck but the receiving isn't comfortable in the situation. For example, Dan agreed to have sex but he felt it was risky to do it in the public showers. Do you get it?

Sorry about the late reply, I'm dozing off haha

Beware of talking to Akaito. https://www.mangago.zone/home/mangatopic/16683925/?page=3

They will only use personal attacks, strawman arguments, name-calling and make it look like you are fighting them, with them winning. Tell me how this is a win/lose situation. What?

They claimed this " but the other part of it is i don't want the bot bozo i've been arguing with or anyone else who might disagree with me here to go stalk my other accounts LMAOOO but we'll see. "
That "Bot" aka someone who has a different opinion from them, was seeking meaningful discussion, PQ was not arguing or debating. Akaito tried to force them too. Now Akaito thinks anyone they attack for having a different opinion will stalk them. What?

“ I think it's fucked up to go out of your way to make a distinction between sexual assault vs. rape, especially when the fact is that people can and do like to act like certain acts of sexual violence are more or less harmful than others”

I definitely agree with you. The reason why there's a distinction is to be clear about the crime the perpetrator committed. People need to identify these acts to be sure what the incident implies. It's important to differentiate these crimes accordingly so others will understand what they went through. I can't be calling a red apple a green apple when it is clearly red. All these need to be studied to justify their crimes and to face their judgment accordingly. So yes, there's in fact a distinction.

strawman!

Same I wish mingwa would've expressed more about the characters but I'm sure that would be done in season 2. I also wish mingwa would've been more detailed so a lot won't be perplexed like this. I even wish she gave a warning to know if there's rape and stuff. At the same time, I feel she did this on purpose to keep the audience hooked, there's always drama when there's a misunderstanding and she def nailed it.

Oh no but they seem genuine though. Why does everyone assume you're a bot? You just use really good English and you're a writer right? I can't even talk to genuine people on this site again

Dude please take it from me. I have extensively used ChatGPT, specifically to study how it works and what it’s capable of. They aren’t wholesale using ChatGPT but they are using it quite a lot/quite often, if not with this account then with their other account, Persisten Quill. I can point out the specific nuances to you if you’re interested.

I suppose I understand your perspective but I still feel like it’s off/wrong. I think yeah, of course, there’s such a thing as having sex you come to regret without it necessarily having been forced upon you but…idk for me it’s hard to see Dan’s situation as being merely that, a case of him having sex he consented to but ultimately regrets. It also feel like some of your other responses don’t necessarily account for the bigger picture/bigger point I’m trying to make but I’ll let you off the hook since you’re falling asleep lmao. That said I will reread the beginning chapters again at least and see what I’m missing, if I’m missing anything, and also see if I can articulate what I mean any better.

Because I’ll admit I did binge-read it and, y’know. I generally trust my reading and interpretation skills but I’m not perfect and over the course of the what. Two? Days I read through it maybe I’ve forgotten and mixed up the order of events and whatnot.

@ Everyone, What I said was true. Akaito is mad at my friend who proved them wrong.

Ain't 20-v-1, it's 1-v-20 if I gotta smack niggas that write with you
Yeah, bring 'em out too, I'll clean 'em out too
Tell BEAM that he better stay right with you
Am I battlin' ghost or AI? Nigga feelin' like Joel Osteen
Funny, he was in a film called "AI"
And my sixth sense tellin' me to off him

PQ thought they were genuine too. But Akaito approach has been consistently confrontational, making it challenging to have a genuine discussion. They made claims that PQ was continuous saying Akaito was wrong in think Jinx was rape. That is not how we roll.
PQ was correcting the notion that “Jinx is rape” was the only valid opinion, and it was important to address the inaccuracies without resorting to personal attacks or dismissing other perspectives as uninformed.

It is obvious I am not a bot. What does everyone think that? I would say it is from using ChatGPT as misunderstandings about how ChatGPT works may have contributed to their perceptions, but being called a bot predates when we started to use it. Our goal was to ensure that our communication was precise and free from misinterpretations. So, calling someone a bot that has good points is a way to discredit people. It is a way to know, they know they are wrong about their opinion and don't want to admit it. It could be because they feel intimidated for many reasons.

I tried hard to improve my English. Thanks for saying that. but... how did you know I was a writer. I think you caught me off guard. Finally, someone who can analyze me.
I wish we had more genuine people on this site. Unfortunately, we often encounter challenges in finding genuine, constructive engagement online. It’s always refreshing to find someone who can analyze and address these issues thoughtfully.

@everyone,

I want to address a few concerns that have come up.

Firstly, the use of AI tools like ChatGPT is intended to enhance the clarity and effectiveness of communication, not to deceive. It is completely reasonable for someone to use ChatGPT to refine their messages and ensure they are expressed clearly. Any assumptions that using such tools is indicative of deception are misplaced. We are not using how Akaito is suggesting or the reasons they think we are using it. They are just assuming without asking. They act like it is a bad thing and it is not.

To clarify, the use of ChatGPT began around June. However, both Manhwaspicy and I have known each other since March, and my friend has known them since February. This timeline shows that the relationship predates the use of AI tools.

Let’s focus on addressing the actual issues and maintaining a constructive dialogue. Personal assumptions and misunderstandings are not helpful in resolving our discussions.

reread the chapter. took notes. respectfully, i think you’re full of shit. i will be back here and more articulate when it isn’t 3 AM

chapter…the first 4 chapters.

So as I said I would reread the first few chapters to make sure I wasn’t forgetting, misunderstanding, or misremembering anything. I will be discussing those first four chapters and only those first four chapters, as I haven’t reread and taken notes beyond that, and it became clear to me last night that indeed, I didn’t remember many details as well as I thought I did. I genuinely appreciate you recommending that I go and reread with a closer eye. Before I get into my rereading and notes and further developed and clarified thoughts I will ask 3 (ish) questions first so as to make sure we’ll be operating from the same understandings and/or see where we disagree and not end up talking past each other. I’ll continue to do this throughout the discussion wherever I think it’s necessary and I would appreciate and encourage you to do the same, again, so that we don’t talk past each other because we fundamentally disagree on the definition and/or usage of words, and so we can better understand where we’re each coming from if at all possible.

I also apologize ahead of time for my long-winded responses. Again, I am trying to make sure that I am explaining myself as clearly as I possibly can.

1: What is your definition of rape, what specific contexts would you use the word rape to describe something, and why?
2: What is your definition of sexual assault, what specific contexts would you use the phrase, and why?
3: How recently have you reread the first four chapters?

How I previously defined rape was not by legal terms. I was operating based off of my own understanding of it in the somewhat more colloquial sense, which was the act of penetration against someone’s will. Because I remembered that Dan had been in a poor financial situation, which limited his agency to make decisions without fear of serious punishment or consequence, I felt that though he ultimately agreed to have sex with Jaekyung, he did not necessarily come to that decision willingly and freely—he was not really consenting to intercourse, or would not have consented to it had his circumstances been different. I was less looking at the interaction between Dan and Jaekyung specifically and thinking more broadly about wealth and class, and how a lack of wealth and a lower class status contributes to a limiting of personal freedoms—yes, even the freedom to say no. Besides, Dan was, in fact, penetrated by Jaekyung during their interaction. Further, I felt that Jaekyung had been using coercive tactics to manipulate Dan into sex with him. Coercive sex is, to me, not consensual sex.

I insisted on using the term for several reasons. The first being that in colloquial usage, the two terms tend to be used interchangeably to signify the same thing. The second being because to me personally, the word rape connoted (and still connotes) something more violent and aggressive than sexual assault. Although sexual assault might’ve been the more dictionary/legally accurate term, it felt insufficient in describing the severity of what happened to Dan. Sexual assault feels too clinical compared to the word rape. The distinguishing between the two felt to me like it was implying a difference in severity. This bothered me principally because in the minds of many, the exact terms you use to describe something that happened to someone will “inform” or signal to them how seriously they should take a victim of sexual violence, and I feel that all victims of sexual violence should be treated the same regardless of the perceived/experienced “severity” of what they went through—with understanding and empathy, amongst other things. I’ll admit that this is in part due to the fact that I double-major in English and Creative Writing. I bring this up for no other reason than to highlight that words, and how they are used, are very important to me.

I previously defined sexual assault as being pretty much any other nonconsensual activity that fell just short of nonconsensual penetration. I have already explained why I felt the term was inaccurate.


I perused several websites to look up the legal definitions of both of these terms. I will get into my issue with the reliance of legal definitions and legal definitions alone elsewhere, because I’ve already said a lot here and I feel I can circle back around to it elsewhere. But I want it to be known that this is a point of contention for me. Regardless, according to several websites on American law, rape is defined as nonconsensual sexual intercourse (specifically penetration) being done to another person by use of force. Force is defined as psychological coercion, threats, use of drugs, and/or use of physical force.


Several websites on American law define sexual assault as generally making nonconsensual contact with someone’s intimate body parts, or making someone touch your own intimate body parts nonconsensually. Intimate body parts include breasts/chest, genitals, thighs, butt, etc.

I am happy and willing to work with either the legal or colloquial definitions of these terms moving forward, as my definition and the legal definitions do not and did not seem to differ much anyway. I will clarify when I feel it is necessary to distinguish or highlight when I am using the term legally vs. when I am using it colloquially.

yo

Respect lol

Hey so I’ve reread the first four chapters and have taken notes on them, detailing anything that I think is relevant to discussing whether or not Jaekyung raped Dan that first time. I am willing to share them and open to being told if and where I’ve missed something or misinterpreted something. I would love to share/clarify how I came to my conclusion as well.

I like being accurate and making sure I’m not talking out my ass and also making sure that I’m being clearly understood and that I’m not misunderstanding people!!

mori jin and mori dan is the same person. hope this helps and def give it a read

Okay ty!!

I agree lmaoo the uke is trash, it's like the world revolves around him instead of actually sitting down and talking to the seme they just have sex like wtffi swr they could've handle the situation better.i feel like the uke should've looked at the bigger picture and see the perspective of seme not make assumptions

Omg yes exactly

Finally a normal person on here there are alot of manwha w rape that people try and sugar coat on this webthank you for that comment I thought I was going insane

Dont let me start about this I m so upset when this happens especially when they say but he changed or he what he did cause he liked the uke like are you serious right now or when they like a rapist and hate one who is just toxic lol ...I hope there are more people like you

Btw look the dislikes I got just because I stated facts lmao

Omg justice for u i swr someone people are funked in the head

Omg for real like okay I get it he changed but that doesn't change his behaviour as a grown adult he knows its wrong to do, alot of manwha artis love to sugar coat rape and toxic behaviour, it so hard to me to read good yaoi

There is one yaoi called rough uniform and it's just straight up rape and I read the comments of people saying they read the raws and wishes that my stayed a hoe!? First of all the mc is a victim and needs help seconde those people that said that need help third of all the mc is just stupid asf for putting himself in that situation as a police officer like the plot is dumb, he ends up in a dangerous situation gets raped, throws them into jail and gets praised and it's a counties cycle ita just stupid

Omg ty....fr tho

Omg that's sound awful

Yeah most of the popular ones are like that and my personal taste is more into cute and relaxing story cause I can't handle a lot of drama so that's why I might not like all these popular ones

Yeah like I try my best to read the popular ones but they never just stick with me and it has that toxic shit

It iss

Yeah me too

Thank you for ur reply tho ur like a breath of fresh air and I hope you have a nice day/night

No problem...omg thank that's such a nice thing to say and I hope you have a nice day too ヾ(❀╹◡╹)ﾉ~

Thank you sm! ε=ε=(ノ≧∇≦)ノ

I'm not talking about Jinx ....they just say other manhwas are better when actually are worst *

Mf didnt horsekyung diddle the twink's hole unconsentually in the earliest chapters?? So your argument of him not being a rapist i sum bs.
Also thas sum stupid ass logic jus cus he's paying for the booty dont mean dude likes ior wants it, you think any stripper or sex worker out there would willingly do that ish if they werent forced to out of necessity.

You are brainrot or what ?? He could just leave whenever rhe wanted to bruh what is the ml doing charity for someone stranger ? And see worker or whatever he chose to do it so shut up you have 0 point in what you wrote...sorry I ruined your fantasy but most of things are give and take get over it

"he is a lot better than those ml who actually rape the mc" mf he ACTUALLY raped him

You literally sound so fucking stupid just because he "chose" to do it doesn't mean its not morally wrong to be having sex with him. Guy's grandmama bout to be dead if he didnt find any other way to make money. Now if horsekyung was an ACTUAL good dude like your stupid ass is tryna argue, he wouldve gave Dan an honest job that pays well, not a sexually exploitative job where hes forced into sexual situations reluctantly.

He gave him a job as a physical therapist. He gave him an honest job that pays well and Dan asked for that too.
Is Dan forced into sexual situations reluctantly? Take time to read the story instead of taking your first impression.


https://www.mangago.zone/read-manga/jinx/uu/br_chapter-196569/pg-31/

“Kim Dan… I hired you as my physical therapist.”

Stop being overly dramatic and talking about Jinx, not false accusations.

They (T800) seems to be pushing a false narrative. They only want to attack you too. Your Original post is spot on! They make it like Jaekyung is the worst but is nothing compared to others. jaekyung is a sexual assaulter not a rapist. They are not reading to understand the story. They are here to trash the story and harm the people who likes this story.

At this point yall just make yalls selves sound stupid. "jaekyung is a sexual assaulter not a rapist." like oml dont even try to argue with me anymore yall are so damn smooth brain'd, is like sayin to a judge in a court "Your honor, im not an arsonist!! I just blew up an entire building!!"

Also did YOU read the story, cause yk dayummmm well horsekyung was using the title of "physical therapist" as guise for "lemme hit whnever i want". Iss like yall need shit TOLD to yalls asses to understand a situation

Likeee nawhhh may god help yall if yalls stupid asses ever have some1 manipulative as a partner, yall's peanut brain prolly wouldnt even notice yall is being manipulated in the first place
Like you fr tryna tell me jaekyung gave him a a job as a physical therapist and NOT as essentially a fuck buddy cause those were his words. maynnnn tell me the last time dan even actually took care of brodie, anytime horsekyung asks lil bro for "care" he actually jus talkin bout sideways missionary. CLEARY dudes obligations aint jus to be a physical therapist.

We need to stick to the actual content of the story, not make up details. It's unproductive to resort to ad hominem attacks, degradation, and then laugh as if it's a joke. That kind of behavior only serves to project one's own frustrations.

I'm basing my points on the facts presented in the story and legal definitions. According to the narrative, Jaekyung gave Dan a job as a physical therapist and a sex buddy. While Jaekyung is certainly a sexual abuser, calling him a rapist misrepresents the story. The arguments suggesting otherwise are based on false details and straw man arguments. Resorting to ad hominems, degradation, and straw man arguments is what is truly foolish because the fact is you are wrong. Your immature approach only exposes you as a bully.

Jaekyung's actions are morally wrong, but we need to differentiate between different levels of wrongdoing to have a clear and honest discussion. Misinformation and hate don't help anyone understand the story better, and they certainly don't contribute to a productive conversation.

I will not be swayed by hate or misinformation. There is no rape in this story. Lies and misinformation can’t change that.

https://www.mangago.zone/read-manga/jinx/uu/br_chapter-211813/pg-1/

https://www.mangago.zone/read-manga/jinx/uu/br_chapter-210627/pg-1/


“ HE MADE SURE
TO ORGANIZE ALL HIS NOTES FOR A SMOOTH TRANSFER.
HAA... IT'S
A SHAME. DOC DAN
WAS A GOOD GUY, AND
SKILLED TOO.”


The coach only knows Dan is a PT and the notes are PT notes.

Why don’t you stop assuming things and reread what you said. It was BOTH. You neglected the truth and pointed out your flaw but you pulled a strawman argument there.


Also:

You are trying to degrade Jaekyung by using horse but you are praising him. Horses are beautiful and majestic. Horses are stunning and everyone wanted to own one when they were young. And you are praising him on his size. The male’s penis are big.

Why don’t you stop assuming things and reread what you said. It was BOTH. You neglected the truth and [I] pointed out your flaw but you pulled a strawman argument there.

Buddy, sexual coercion aint consent, hes still a rapist idccc how many fuckin vocab words you used off oxford your argument is still dumb asf. Also y tf you tryna convince horses are hot, you sound hella eeird rn you into animals?? Its givin beastiality

I would have agreed with you if you didn't say "he didn't actually rape him" cuz yes he did.

Sexual coercion is sexual assault not rape. There is no rape in Jinx. The rest of your argument is projection and strawman arguments. Your comments are irrelevant.
You seem like you are trolling. Blocked.

That is your opinion. I am glad you don’t attack or insult people for having different opinions. Why do you think there is rape?
I think we can have a conversation.

Ngl you have a solid argument and I sorta agree with it. To me, sexual assault is as bad and disgusting as rape but they are at different levels. As the original poster said, Dan could've worked to find a different solution and left but instead decided to suffer through all of that and just leave at the end of season 1. He's being sexually abused yeah but in my opinion, he's not being sexually abused as much as he's being emotionally abused from what I remember. Jaekyung is a piece of shit 100% agree but this is also a work of fiction with situations that could potentially happen irl and there are even worse characters in other stories. Then again I also don't have hatred for fictional characters even if they're bad bc again, they're fiction so I don't get why ppl fill the comments with hate after every single chapter nor the constant insults towards other people who have different opinions. This story isn't supposed to be rainbows and sunshine like every other darker BL or story out there so I don't get the blatant hate and criticism towards the author. Like if you're reading it then this is the type of stuff you signed up for. Idk I got sidetracked a bit but regarding your opinion, it does make sense bc Dan did agree to be his PT and fuck buddy whenever Jaekyung wanted or needed to so he did technically consent to sex and he's been putting up with it for the sake of his grandmother.

Well in certain cases, like at chapter 6 and chapter 28 I would say he basically raped him because he never consented to this at all. Jaekyung forced it upon him. In other cases like chapter 20, I wouldn't say it was rape or sexual assault because Kim Dan didn't actually complain at all, he actually accepted it.

LMFAOOO YOU HAVE DIFFERENT OPINIONS ABOUT RAPE?? GIRL WHAT

Mf he did not ... stop being delusional or go read fantasy idk lmao

You fking dumbass fr I only said he isn't a rapist but he is being jerk and trash .. go learn what rapist means and who gives a fk he isn't doing charity he could a well decline he offer you retard

Finally at least someone gets it thank you!

Your delusional on another level God stole reading pls it's not for you ...you have 0 comprehensive skills

You ate damnn!!

You haven't understand anything bro go check it pls :')

I hope there are more people like you who don't delusion themselves and actually ready the story

He is a rapist idk why tf you keep tryna deny it iss like horsekyung must have a chocolate flavored dick or smthin for yall to be kissing his balls so much
You fr jus projecting caus the only delusional one here is u, learn about power dynamics, i think in even one chapt dude was saying shit along the lines of "your mine i can do whatever i want with you" LIKE ARE YOU TELLIN ME THAT ISNT SEXUAL COERCION??? I couldn't even imagine if yall ever became judges, well that is if yalls stupid asses could even hypothetically get into law school, our world done gon have an eve worse sexual offender problem

Why is sexual assault so different in your mind from rape. Even from a professional standpoint jaekyung as an employer has such a financial power over dan and has already threatened him with firing him, that we can consider the ability for Kim dan to consent nonexistent.

The first time they had sex Kim Dan wanted to stop in the middle and jaekyung refused even with Dan crying. You can withdraw consent whenever you feel like and jaekyung did not respect that. If that is not legal rape to you then what is?

The scene with the headphones is also pretty disturbing because there is for one more time no consent to be found. He presented Kim Dan in a very intimate moment and announced him as his toy to the actor(I think his names heesung?) and then lied to his face and said no one was there.

Let’s also not forget that he pays Dan for sex (paying someone for sex in my country, at least, is illegal) and constantly objectifies him (if you remember the scene right before his match where he just bent him over and did his business???).

Now I understand that the person who answered you was quite rude in their replies but please don’t be obtuse.
Rape is rape
Let’s not minimize what Kim Dan went through in the sake of “romance” and be realistic for the sake of all the real victims of abuse. Because Kim Dan was a victim of all kinds of abuse from jaekyung as I previously mentioned some examples ( rape being one of the forms of the abuse).

Do not get me wrong. I am very interested to see how the story will progress because the author has done an amazing job portraying the characters emotions. And I am actually hoping for a colossal redemption arc to be honest.

Also sorry for any grammatical mistakes English is not my first language

It's important to stick to the facts and maintain a respectful dialogue. Vulgarity and insults don't contribute to a productive discussion.
From a legal perspective, sexual coercion is typically classified as sexual assault, not rape. This distinction is important because it helps us understand the specific nature of the wrongdoing and address it appropriately.
Regarding power dynamics, I agree that Jaekyung's behavior involves coercion and a power imbalance (if viewed that way), which makes his actions morally wrong and legally classifiable as sexual assault.
However, labeling these actions as rape misrepresents the legal definitions and the story's context.
I believe we can discuss the problematic aspects of Jaekyung's behavior without resorting to insults or misrepresentations.
Understanding these distinctions helps in having a clear and honest conversation about the issues at hand.
If you have specific examples from the story that support your view, let's discuss them respectfully and factually.

You are not alone. There are many people who as the same opinion. They have been silenced here by a hate group. If you look at other platforms you will see you are not alone and part of the majority.
Most of ones saying it is rape are haters. There are some genuine readers that will say that but it is depends on if they keep their first impression or how they understand rape. Someone has said an attempted rape is rape but that doesn’t make sense.
Don’t feel alone or wrong. They are in the wrong with silencing others.

No problem.

Thanks.

Thank you for your detailed response and for letting me know that English is not your first language. I appreciate your effort to engage in this discussion. I did feel some of the things you said came off as strawman arguments, but I understand that you might have misunderstood.
Firstly, I want to clarify that I do not minimize any abuse Kim Dan has endured. Jaekyung's actions are deeply problematic and morally reprehensible. My focus on differentiating between sexual assault and rape is based on legal definitions, not an attempt to downplay the severity of the abuse.
Please be accurate and use details from Jinx. The actual story and details from Jinx do not constitute rape but rather sexual assault. In many jurisdictions, sexual coercion, which involves manipulating or pressuring someone into sexual acts, is classified as sexual assault. Rape, legally speaking, often requires the absence of consent and involves force or threats of force. Both are severe crimes, but they are distinct in legal terms.

Regarding the specific incidents you mentioned:
1. First Sexual Encounter: While Kim Dan expressed his desire to stop at various points, he also consented and then withdrew consent multiple times, creating a complex and confusing situation.
Jaekyung did stop when Kim Dan was crying, which complicates the narrative further. This dynamic, while deeply problematic, needs to be understood in its full context to avoid misrepresentation.
Jaekyung stopped twice when Dan asked.
2. Headphone Scene: In this scene, Jaekyung covered Dan's eyes, ears, and mouth, and allowed another person to see them without Dan's knowledge. This act was a severe violation of Dan's privacy and autonomy. However, it does not fit the legal definition of rape. It's another example of Jaekyung's abusive behavior and disregard for Dan's consent.
3. Financial Power and Objectification:
While Jaekyung's control over Kim Dan's employment and financial situation complicates the matter of consent, it's also important to recognize that Dan negotiated and agreed to the terms, even asking for more money. There are hints in the story that Dan has more power and influence over Jaekyung than it initially appears. Jaekyung, despite his aggressive and abusive behavior, often shows jealousy and insecurity regarding Dan. For instance, Jaekyung's response to Dan's question, "Am I allowed to say no?" was "No," but it's evident from the context that Dan can indeed say no and has agency in their interactions.
Jaekyung's behavior often stems from his own emotional immaturity and insecurity. He hides his true feelings and acts out inappropriately, such as when he gets angry upon learning that Dan was going through trouble to get him a birthday present. This complexity adds layers to their relationship and should be considered when discussing the dynamics of consent and abuse.
It's important to recognize these distinctions not to minimize the abuse but to ensure clarity in our discussions. Legally and morally, Jaekyung's behavior is abusive and constitutes sexual assault. Whether it qualifies as rape depends on personal beliefs but it does not meet the legal definition of rape. However, the abuse is undeniable.
I hope this clarifies my stance. I agree that the story portrays complex emotions and dynamics, and I, too, am interested in seeing how it progresses. Understanding these nuances helps us advocate for real victims of abuse and ensure their experiences are recognized and validated.
This is a fantasy story, and while it contains disturbing and problematic elements, it's important to distinguish between the fictional context and real-life situations. In real life, any form of abuse, coercion, or lack of consent is absolutely unacceptable and should be addressed with the utmost seriousness.
The themes explored in "Jinx" are meant to evoke strong emotions and provoke thought, but they remain within the realm of fiction.
When discussing these themes, it's vital to maintain this distinction to avoid blurring the lines between fantasy and reality. This distinction helps in understanding and analyzing the story without minimizing the gravity of similar real-life situations.
Thank you for engaging in this discussion. I hope you have a better understanding now.

sexual coercion:


https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/sexual-coercion

"Sexual coercion is when a person pressures, tricks, threatens, or manipulates someone into sex. It is a type of sexual assault because even if someone says yes, they are not giving their consent freely."


Sexual coercion is generally considered a form of sexual assault rather than rape. The distinction often lies in the specifics of how consent is compromised. Here’s a brief overview:

1.Sexual Coercion: Involves pressuring, manipulating, or intimidating someone into sexual activity against their will. It does not necessarily involve physical force or threats of physical harm but rather uses psychological or emotional manipulation. This is broadly categorized as sexual assault.



2.Rape: Typically defined as non-consensual sexual intercourse that involves the use of physical force, threats of force, or when the victim is incapacitated and unable to consent. Rape is a specific, more severe form of sexual assault.

The exact definitions can vary based on jurisdiction, but generally, sexual coercion is seen as a broader category of behavior that falls under the umbrella of sexual assault. Not all instances of sexual coercion meet the legal criteria for rape, but all are serious violations of consent and personal autonomy.

In their first sexual encounter I had the impression he had said no but jaekyung continued anyway. That was on chapter 8 I’m sorry for the confusion.
I agree on most points you made but I now understand some things are based on our personal views. Yes, Kim Dan is not completely powerless in my opinion too.

In this:
“For instance, Jaekyung's response to Dan's question, "Am I allowed to say no?" was "No," but it's evident from the context that Dan can indeed say no and has agency in their interactions.”

For me at least it was not evident at all. It seemed coercive. There are many instances where it seems he influences jaekyung as you’ve also said already, this does not seem one of them.

I did some more research and I did mention instances of sexual coercion not rape, my mistake for that. There seem to be many different definitions on sexual assault but it’s generally viewed as the umbrella term in many of them(example: https://www.met.police.uk/advice/advice-and-information/rsa/rape-and-sexual-assault/what-is-rape-and-sexual-assault/).

In my mother language (Greek) sexual assault directly translates to sexual abuse (σεξουαλική κακοποίηση) and that’s why we generally view it as either coercive or physically forceful, as is rape. Legally this is also true (in my country) and although it depends on the level and situation, sexual assault encompasses in its term rape.

Either way I think whether jaekyung would be criminally charged (with sexual coercion and/or rape) it depends on the country and the judge.
I think we generally agree with each other (at least I mostly do with you) but the differences lie in our view on the matter. I think I have a pretty consistent understanding on the subject but I hope that clears my inaccuracies and my opinion on the matter.

Dan actually raped horsey, horsey can't consent to sex cuz he's drunk. I just want to add this cuz it seems like no one's talking about this scene

He didn't lmao are you delusional or you haven't read it ? They agreed to be set buddies and Dan agreed cause he wanted the money lol