youraedthiswrogn's Topics (712)

just wanted to say i totaly agree with you and i absoultely love how much depth you put inti this paragraph

Thank you (⌒▽⌒)

Thank you. Im actually crying while typing this

Well, I think is complex. I dont think them themselves could know what feelings they had clearly. Human is like that. We dont have as readers all the information either. Does he love his wife? and if so, how? I dont think he do it just out of the kid'ssake, everyone has selfish feelings even if we are not concious of them or they are small, he has some kind of affection towards him which sometimes nobody can label. And I know you are putting in the wife shoes, if the difference for you to forgive him would be if he did it out of duty or not, I beleave that it'd be hard to determinate even for the husband. He lust him clearly at least a little, nobody would have done that for anybody even if the person is someone important to you.

I agree with the latter point. His life would be easier if his brother succeeded in dying--he wants him out of the way so he gets whatever it is he thinks he deserves (the better place). When his brother was bullied, on his knees, begging for help, Jiwook felt superior, higher, better. And the only way to keep that is if his brother stays down on his knees, humiliated, the school loser--or dies.

Which makes him a lousy person.

I hope you don't think i'm trying to plead Jiwook's case, i'm definitely not. He's an asshole, i'm just trying to analyze him as a character and one thing i couldn't leave out is that in this most recent chapter it definitely seems as though he still cares for his brother in some small part of his bitterness-shriveled heart. The scenes that make me think so are: the flashback scene when it shows the two of them and those ladies start talking about how it must suck being compared to his brother and Siwon goes to comfort him. At first he accepts the comfort, then he gets upset and hits his hand away, then he realizes what he did and shows a regretful expression that makes me think he feels remorse for hitting Siwon's hand away which would indicate that he cares for his brother. The other scene that makes me feel like he still cares for his brother is the scene where, during Joohoon's call to him, Jiwook says "i almost lost my brother because of what happened!", i don't think this needs explained as to how it would make me think he cares for his brother.

No, not at all. I think you've made a good assessment of what may be going on.

Furthermore, I think SiWon will rescue him. I really do think that SiWon, who has a great distaste for Joohoon and bullies in general, will come to Jiwook's rescue if he gets targeted again, and this will be a mental turning point--epiphany--for Jiwook. One of those, "My God, what did I do? Why did I do that? My brother saved me when I needed him, unlike me, who let him take my place." It will be therapeutic. At least, that's how I see that playing out.

The only reason I quibble with the former part is that I think Jiwook went after Joohoon, the same way he seems to want to be a sidekick for SiWoon. He's looking to hang with those who have power/money/status (Joohoon is clearly a sadistic nasty bit of a guy, but he is able to order people around, so I assume he carries weight and power in that setting). SiWoon, the "prince" as it were, is now Jiwook's target for status, for a "place" of honor. But he's not getting anywhere and resents that Siwoon is with Siwon. Siwon taking "his place" again. Boy is psycho with the complex. So, I do think he pursued JooHoon for his purposes, but JooHoon is not controllable. And he did something to piss off Joohoon to the point that the gang-rape punishment occurred. (Or maybe he flirted with JooHoon in order to get favors--even such as arranging for his brother to be bullied. I don't put it past him. Since JooHoon said he benefitted.)

The phone call statement could be guilt, could be manipulating Joohoon, could be some remnant of real feeling from the past when the two brothers actually got along (before the inferiority complex came in and messed his soul up). Some remnant of that younger Jiwook can be there. But the way he consistently rips into SiWon doesn't show much remorse or affection. I would think that when I did something self-protective it nearly utterly destroyed my sibling, that it would snap me out of my self-absorption to realize I was on a bad path. That Jiwook continues to be evil to his brother minimizes any ejaculation of concern on the phone for me. It's almost as if Joohoon is right: What? Trying to play the victim? Trying to feel better?

One shred of real remorse toward his brother might have made me believe that outburst was more than self-protective shifting of blame to Joohoon. That is, not accepting his part in the game.

No matter his sense of inferiority/loss, I cannot forgive how he has cold-heartedly treated his one and only brother of whom we have zero evidence was a bully, but rather the bullied one. So, even if the story is going in the direction of redeeming him (and that's gonna take loads of work, but it doable if he really repents and confesses his part in destroying his brother, even if it's to his not-real-brother), I think it's SiWon who will end up snapping Jiwook out of his villainous path.

I think it would also be possible, that he is so mean to his brother (taemin) now, because he can't forgive himself for what he did

While that's not impossible and the author might work it out to some degree to that, let's just say she's making it hard to go there. It's like avoiding a lot of evidence, like passing around the rape cd and having a bunch of guys beat his brother up (maybe rape him again, who knows) is not forgiving himself? He was pretty clear in his bathroom monologue (see link later) that he is doing eveyrthing to KEEP his place, and he was mad the bullies didn't crush SiWon.

In the bathroom monologue, one can't argue he's saying mean words just to "test" his brother. THis is him talking to himself and he's angry the bullies didn't succeed in ripping SiWon up.

Not saying that not-forgiving-self thing's not gonna be one of the later on reasons. just saying that so far, there is NO evidence Jiwook wants to make up for what he did, no real sense of guilt (even psycho Joo mentions Jiwook wanting to displace guilt with his outburst). Just a desire to crush SiWon that drives him to do nasty things.

Anything can happen later, but up to now, Jiwook has been pretty consistent in wanting to destroy his brother, and not out of guilt, but out of a desire to have the supremacy, the better place, the place of the "better brother." He could enjoy his brother's low, painful position, because it meant he didn't suffer that.

"You need to live like you're dead for the rest of your life." The statement seems to be in accord with other "you should stay dead" statemewnts. So, unless this is one of those fine psychological things that because they ware Twins, when he speaks to SiWon's image, he speaks REALLY to himself--again, very possible in a long-term outworking--the author is making it look like it's just a brother hating a brother to the point of plotting true violence..

Where is there a hint of self-reflection and remorse about disseminating the rape cd (which means he WATCHED his brother raped) and siccing bullies on him to mess him up?

Of course, the ultimate twist would be that the dead one is JiWook and the blue-hair is SiWon who took his brother's place to stop being bullied. I haven't discounted that possibility. In which case, SiWon is the villain.
http://www.mangago.zone/read-manga/geu_kkeute_issneun_geos/uu/geu_kkeute_issneun_geos-chapter-26/35/

Yes, it is definitely completely possible, maybe even likely that, Jiwook DOESN'T have any care left for his brother at this point, i just felt differently given the scenes. You DID have a point about the phone call scene possibly being just a Joohoon described it, as Jiwook just trying to feel better about what happened, though that would also imply that he already feels BAD about what he did and could imply care. It's all convoluted. Who knows? I personally don't believe that Joohoon was a target of Jiwook as an increase in power, i base this on the new chapter as it shows pretty clearly that Jiwook is actually scared of Joohoon and asking "why is he contacting me again", it seems as though he wants nothing to do with him. This and Joohoon's personality are why i believe that, rather than someone Jiwook was targeting for power, he was a bully to Jiwook. It doesn't really show Joohoon as someone popular either, that i remember. Though honestly its really up to interpretation as there isn't really anything concrete so far. You could definitely be right. I agree with you that he is sucking up to Siwoon for this reason, however. If there is anyone to stick around to become popular, it is Siwoon. Personally, i don't believe, taking that Jiwook MIGHT still care for his brother, that Jiwook means that he wants Siwon dead when he talks about his "spot". If this was the case then he still wouldn't have his spot, however despite Siwon still being alive he still says "i finally got my spot back", i think he means that he no longer wants to be just "Siwon's brother", he wants to be his own person. I think he only treats Siwon badly and wants his death out of panic that he'll be caught for what he did, IF he did convince Joohoon to rape Siwon instead of himself. Once again, this is definitely just my opinion and i'm not saying yours is any less valid, i'm trying to consider yours actually while thinking of ways it ties into mine.

I don't think i explained the bit about Jiwook's "spot" very well, i'll try again here: Siwon survived his suicide attempt (as Taemin) and even though he is still alive Jiwook is still seen saying multiple times that he "finally has his spot back", this implies that Jiwook can have his "spot" without the death of his brother. This is why i believe that by "spot" he means that he wants to be his own person rather than that he wants his brother to die. I can see how you'd connect the two desires, however, as the reason he didn't feel like his own person is because his brother was outshining him. I just don't believe the death is necessary since he was talking about how he had his spot back in present tense even with Siwon still being alive. Though i suppose he IS trying to remove him as an obstacle, ah, I think thats it. I think he just feels the need to remove him as an obstacle, not for his death. I believe he only mentions how it would've been better if he HAD died because he's terrified that he's going to be found out.

We can't possibly know who is right, given the author has final say and can do ANYTHING. Heck, I kinda still wish she'd bring the real SiWon back to life somehow in some other dead body.

I keep working that twins switch thing. It makes so much of this fit if, after the great psycho-break of Jiwook in the past, he was actually the one who figured out how to get the better of SiWon and get him bullied, but that SiWon figured out how to set up Jiwook and got a great opportunity to take his place given the coma. THat would explain the "why didn't you just die" and "I finally got my place back." The one who had the supreme place was SIWon in childhood. But somehow, SiWon lost that and Jiwook was the non-loser. So, if SiWon set Jiwook up and it's Jiwook who is dead and SiWon was able to take the non-loser place by being his non-bullied brother. This would explain his fear of JooHoon. JooHoon knows there was somehow a brother switch, but maybe even JooHoon doesn't know to what extent.

Maybe I"m too enamored of this twins switch, but it sure does seem to explain a lot as I ponder it.

But if it's a twins switch (Jiwook is really SiWon, because SiWon wanted HIS place BACK, ie, he was originally top twin), then that explains what he means by it being his. Jiwook never had top spot. He never was the praised/admired one. SiWon was.

The mirror scene and the stay dead phrases start to make a lot of sense if this is an actual opportunistic switch.

Oh, and yes, he had a spot when his brother became the loser. That's why I think he may have encouraged the bullying (one possibility). Because if his brother is bullied, a losesr, the school gay slut--that puts Jiwook in the higher spot. The brother who IS NOT bullied, who is NOT the loser, who is not the gay slut.

But to have one's spot by the denigration of the other is villailny. And it makes the brother's life worse than death.

Remember, Taemin said he saw "fear" in Jiwook's eyes when he was questioning Jiwook about his connection with Joohoon. I think Jiwook's prime motivations right now are: 1. To not get caught for having used his brother as a scapegoat to escape gang rape (if he gets caught he probaby wont be viewed in a favorable light anymore so his selfishness might be a factor here or it COULD be a sense of guilt at what he did to the brother that still cares for while hating him). and 2. To remain popular now that he isn't being overshadowed by his brother (motivation 1 is appropriately listed as 1 because if he's found out this 2nd motivation will be ruined as well).

OMG, me too. I want real Siwon to still be alive in real Taemin's body. It was too nice a body to just die off like that and i want Siwon to get some justice. Personally, i think the twin switch theory is a little far-fetched, but not because it doesn't make sense. It definitely covers quite a few points that were previously confusing in the text, i just think the IDEA is a little outlandish. It's possible, definitely and there isn't really a reason it wouldn't work or any evidence debunking it so far, i just can't see it.

And then Taemin just comes in and destroys everyone who treats him as less than human, both literally physically beating them up and mentally. (๑•ㅂ•)و✧

Well, a guy who can order/direct a gang-rape and who think you betrayed him is worthy of fear. :) for various reasons. (Even if the twins switch theory is correct, that makes it even more reason to fear, because JooHoon might figure the switch out.)

I loved that so much. I think all of us who really despise bullying lovie to see when the tables turn and the bullied take down the bullies. It's a beautiful thing. (Okay, let's hear the barrage of how I'm not treating humans with due courtesy of their humanity for wanting bullies bullied back. :D)

Yep. That could be it.

ahahaha, no i completely agree. It was so satisfying. No one can deny that every single one of them deserved what they got, i'd be one thing if he had KILLED any of them, but all he does is kick their asses in the process doling out a little justice the right way.

The only ones I"d not mind one bit seeing given the ultimate off-the-roof style punishment are JooHoon and the rapists. I mean, that was brutal. BRUTAL.

I wouldn't necessarily say organizing a gang rape shows any power or influence on Joohoon's part as all he'd need to do is find the most unsavory people he could find that wouldn't blink when he offered free forced sex that no one would tell on. It was an organized crime that, in theory, has no consequences. They get what they want and unless the victim is willing to recount their nightmare they wont get caught, all he'd have to do is promise them that none of the rapers involved would tattle on any of the others. Joohoon only says that Jiwook "betrayed" him because after the gang rape Jiwook stopped contacting him, which could also imply that he wants nothing to do with Joohoon rather than to stick around him for power. This is, of course, just what i'm getting from this read and is just my interpretation.

Yes, i wouldn't feel any sympathy for them if i just read the next chapter and saw them die, but if i'm thinking about whether or not it is morally right i can't say it is. I'd still be happy about it though. ╮(￣▽￣)╭

It was recorded and clearly copies were made. That means there could be criminal repercussions. Also, there never was a guarantee charges would not be brought. Someone could be pushed so far that they will go to the authorities.

Joohoon was the figure in charge in that room. The others asked him if it was "okay," and he even said they could beat him to the verge of death if they had to. I also get the idea that his very sadistic type personality and confidence speak of a certain power. People would fear him. That's power.

You can think of it that way, but i personally interpret it this way: The recording was to make sure Siwon didn't go to the authorities, it was just insurance for the rapists. The rapists were only asking Joohoon because he set the entire event up, not necessarily because they needed his permission. They're already raping an innocent person so i doubt they care much for what Joohoon thinks on the matter, they've already kidnapped and bound him, they're balls deep already and i doubt they would've stopped even IF Joohoon had told them to stop. They're all expecting sex and are going to get it, it's not like Joohoon is going to reveal the plan to the authorities if they don't listen to him. As far as him telling them they can beat him near to death, i think it was just because they didn't expect Siwon to resist so much and weren't sure what to do so he gave them a solution.

And if the DVD was just insurance against cops...why make copies? That makes it more likely someone might turn it in? The rapists also knew they were being recoreded, again, putting THEM at a disadvantage.

Because they're already rapists, i don't imagine they'd be below watching the video and masturbating. They're high school boys who got the chance to have sex with someone however they wanted without regard to the person and got off, i'm sure they found it sexy and would masturbate to it often. Sure, with there being more videos out there there is a higher possibility of them being caught, but if they did they'd ALL go down so i doubt they are worried about one of the ones involved turning them in. They're all in this together, they either all get away with it or they all fall so they took the video to ensure that Siwon wouldn't say anything and so that they would have some memorabilia.

I totally get the rapists being idiots. But Joohoon doesn't strike me as out of control. Making copies strikes me as losing control.

Think of it this way, you could replace him sitting there all by himself with any of the other rapists and they'd be the ones who looked like they were in control. Keep EVERYTHING else about Joohoon that we've seen the same, all the scenes the same, but change it in THAT scene so that he's one of the rapists. If you do this he'd still look like a sadistic asshole, but would no longer look like the leader of operations.

In other words, the one sitting aloof in that position is who looks like the one in control. You could put Joohoon in the spot of one of the rapists, make it so that HE doesn't ask for permission to rape Siwon like they asked him (wasn't it just one guy who asked him?) and he wouldn't look like he was subservient while the guy sitting in the corner not participating in the gang rape but only watching on would look like the ring leader.

Well, it's more than sitting there. It's sitting there looking smug and being the one to give the okay and being the one telling them to shoot it properly and it being him who is giving permission to beat him senseless. It's the cascade of "boss" variables. He comes across as the one in control there, just as he was in control of SiWon in Karaoke by force of will and strength until SiWoon came and kicked his butt. He gave in to SiWon as the stronger (though I'm sure he'll plot some revenge.)

I definitely see what you're saying, i'm just saying it didn't have to be Joohoon who performed that "cascade of boss variables". If one of the other guys had been the one to proposition the others with the gangrape they probably would been asking THAT guy if they could start and it probably would've been HIM that made sure they recorded properly because, as i said, i believe the tape was an insurance policy. Anyone who had brought the entire event together would want to make sure their insurance was recorded properly. I said this before, but if one of them falls they all fall, including whoever set the event up, it was just as much in Joohoon's best interests for the tape to be of high quality as the rapists so him saying this doesn't have to indicate that he's the ringleader rather than that he's just the one who said it. Any of them could've said these things and been the one to sit in the corner watching the gangrape happen tossing out order, in my opinion it just happens to be Joohoon because he's the one who set the event up. I believe the "beat him near to death if you want" was just part of Joohoon's personality showing and had nothing to do with him being in charge.

While Joohoon is definitely a messed up person, i haven't seen any indication that he is in a position of power, popular, or ruling by fear. I believe the only person they've shown afraid of Joohoon is Jiwook and i suppose Siwon's body as well, though that is easily attributed to their shared history. There isn't anything i've seen that shows Joohoon has been terrorizing anyone else.

Oh no, my urge to debate had started to rise. (▰˘◡˘▰) I completely agree that what you're saying could, and most likely IS the case. Joohoon definitely HAS been portrayed as a tyrant the entire manga and it is entirely possible that he is popular either to mask his true nature or because people fear him. I'm just saying what I got from what i read. Your opinion happens to differ so i was just wanting to tell you what i thought and why, not change your mind. I hope i didn't come across too aggressive.

Not at all. You have a very sharp mind and I enjoy your interpretations (which I mostly agree with, actually)

Is your name a combination of 'manga' and 'anime'?

Thank you, and i really enjoyed your interpretations as well. You conveyed them very articulately and gave your reasons for believing so, which i honestly wasn't able to find any fault in. I think the only difference in our opinions of what is happening in the manga is interpretation.

Yep. Manga and Anime, which I enjoy both

You and me both ლ(´ڡ`ლ) The anime that i currently have bookmarked are: 1. Dungeon ni Deai wo Motomeru no wa Machigatteiru Darou ka Gaiden: Sword Oratoria 2. Zero kara hajimeru majou no sho 3. Re:Creators and 4. Tsuki ga keirei. I just finished watching season 2 of Konosuba and it was hilarious (⌒▽⌒)

Lol

Hahahah

huehuehue... nerdy science jokes. ლ(´ڡ`ლ)