Dem Feler's Topics (915)

The hyung didn't rape sooyoung, it was rough but it is consensual. Minhyuj actually is the one that rapes sooyoung (thigh rape).

Which chapter do you refer to? I don't know the story yet so please no spoilers, thanks.

Juat check chapter 17 minhyuk shows his desire for sooyoung. While the hyung never actually raped sooyoung.

Try to look at Chapter 9 then, you'll see how he said "stop" and "it hurts," after which the hyung pulls his hair, tells him to stop talking, and treats him abusively, even punches him a bit later when they were having an argument, despite him being lame. Also I'm not arguing if Minhyuk is a rapist or not, because I have read a bit of spoilers from previous comments, though I do not want to know further. Furthermore, Minhyuk being a rapist doesn't mean that the Hyung is not one. That's a fallacy.

I agree Minhyuk being a rapist doesn't mean that Hyung is not. In chapter 9, i think it was still consensual it just that the hyung is too rough than usual that time because of his jealousy, thats why sooyoung said "stop" and "it hurts". Although I hate the hyung because of that as due to sooyoungs pained facial expression when sooyoung said "not yet" it means that he is expects to have sex he isn't ready yet because he has not loosen enough yet.

Hyung punching him is actually already after their sex and the trigger of that is sooyoung telling the hyung that he already have a work and that that is his employer. Fighting while having an argument and the hyung "raping" sooyoung are actually two separate topics. I agree that he is an asshole for hurting the Mc because of his jealousy but I don't think that he rapes the MC.

Jealousy doesn't excuse rough handling, nor does it excuse ignoring your partner's "no" and "it hurts" and placing your hands on your lover's face to shut up their rejection of your advances. Sooyoong just got used to his hyung's rapist behavior, so I don't agree at all that this is consexual sex. But I guess each to his/her own interpretation of what happened then.

I agree with you that jealousy isn't an excuse for rough handling but in the beginning Souyoung said "slowdown" instead of "stop", implying that it is in their intention to have sex. The hyung let his emotions get the best of him, instead of listening to the MC. He was driven by jealousy when he saw Souyoung gets off the boss care but again it doesn't permit his rough handling. But I don't think it is rape if they have the intentions to have sex in the first place. I am actually sad that they end up in that state due to poor communication they used to be so in love with each other. Does he hurt the MC? Definitely. Did he rape the MC? I don't think so.

Well it is easier to think that the hyung is a complete asshole to validate what happened to him but I don't think that he is actually a complete asshole since he genuinely cared for the MC, the MC get traumatized because the hyung hurts him (the only person so far that makes him feel that he mattered) he wouldn't be traumatized if they didn't love each other.

Mate, I think you should look closer at each panel. The bastard is possessive, aggressive, and the sex was nonconsesual. I rest my case, but I I wouldn't be a hypocrite and say I don't read or enjoy things like these. It's just that for me, I should be able to tell the line between rough sex and rape.

http://www.mangago.zone/read-manga/legs_which_cannot_walk/uu/iur_chapter-9/pg-1/

Here's the actual part: http://iweb11.mangapicgallery.com/r/newpiclink/legs_which_cannot_walk/21/984e164ccd7051289767c2be652f3075.jpeg

I have check the panels, well he became posessive and aggressive but I guess all the seme's are posessive and aggressive lol. But I just think its unfair to tag him as a rapist when he' not, yes he is manipulative but I don't think he's a rapist if he is I don't think the MC can have a casual talk with him afterwards. Well there is a thin line between rape and rough sex but MC's dialogue points me towards rough sex more. Saying "stop", "wait" and "it hurts" are usual in yaois that I have read so I don't think that is a conclusive grounds to say it was rape.

Even wives are raped, but since victims are usually not in any position to fight back, they have to accept their situation and talk casually with their abusers afterwards to show that they will not fight back. Yes it is usual in yaois because rape is common in yaois. People should stop gaslighting rape into "rough sex" just because it is common in yaoi. He's not manipulative because Soo Yoong would have had a choice in the matter.

I am not gaslighting rape, I am merely stating my observation based on the dialouges. Also as I mentioned before I don't think the MC will be able to casually talk with the hyung if that is the case, at least their should be a sign of fear from the MC but the MC only gets afraid of the hyung after he hit him not immediately after the sex.

Yes, and you are saying that shouting "stop" and "it hurts" and being shut up doesn't indicate nonconsensus. So what else are you doing except gaslighting it?
╮(￣▽￣)╭

Then do you classify this as rape?

http://www.mangago.zone/read-manga/anti_p_t/uu/ibx_chapter-16/pg-1/

As I said, it is common in yaoi to use say thoae words during the act, also the MC said to slow down rather than stop at first implying that there's consent.

Btw, your arguments are starting to sound more of a personal attack rather than discussing the topic on hand, if that is how it is going to move forward. Let's just agree to disagree.

He said, "Do what you want, but hurry," so there is consensus. Mate, I'm getting tired of trying to convince you that consensus is necessary so that it isn't rape. That's basically the whole point. So if you keep on closing your eyes, that's fine. I just hope you don't justify this in real life and know when to draw the line.

Look, if you can't defend your argument properly, that's on you. If you think me breaking down fallacies in your argument is a personal attack, you shouldn't engage in these kinds of conversations. Periodt.

And lastly, prevalence of rape in yaoi doesn't nullify the fact that it is rape.

But the MC instruct the him to stop as well but he didn't. I am saying that saying "stop" does not imply that it in non-consensual. Similar way when the MC said to slow down rather than to stop. Bro, it is not my argument that you are attacking but be by saying that I am gaslighting rape.

I didn't say that rape does not exist in yaoi what I am saying is that saying "stop", "wait", "it hurts" etc., is usual dialouge during sex in yaoi even if it is not rape.

Look the way you phrase your statement is not "Your argument is gaslighting rape." but "You are gaslighting rape." I hope you can recognize the difference between the two.

Well aren't you the one making the argument? How can you not be the owner of the action? Was it anybody else's argument?

It's not right? You made the argument, hence you are the one doing the fallacy.

If you're hurt, I guess you should probably think why you're resorting to nitpicking on this, maybe because your argument is losing its edge, and you are feeling personally attacked because you made that argument. As one who embarked on this conversation, you should take ownership of your words. Otherwise, you are going to get worked up and get hurt.

Well, I guess you didn't see the difference.

Anyway I don't think that it is still rape as the prior dialouge suggest. Also as I said, if it is rape the MC, shouldn't be able to hold casual conversation with the hyung at that level or at the very least will show fear towards the hyung because of the sex but he didn't.

The MC shows fear to the hyung but not because of the sex but because he hit him due to the events afterwards.

It was also the MC that said they always had it rough. He was hurt because he hit him for the first time.

I am not saying that rape doens't happen in yaoi but saying stuff like "wait", "stop", etc. Is usual in yaoi despite it not being rape so I woudn't consider that as conclusive grounds.

Also, the Mc fought back the hyung when they had argument, in fact he was the first one to hit. So I wouldn't say he is in no position to fought back.

http://www.mangago.zone/read-manga/legs_which_cannot_walk/uu/iur_chapter-9/pg-7/

No, there is no difference. It becomes a personal attack when I say something personal like, "you must be so dumb" or "you must be so used to situations like this," or "get it to your small brain to blah blah," etc. Again, it is you who made the fallacy, because you made the argument. Verbs are transitive, they have an owner - you.

Next, it is not proper evidence to use other yaoi as support to your argument, firstly because these other yaoi have different context. You couldn't even provide enough examples to prove your point. Remember that yaoi Anti P.T.? He was saying the same things, but because he also wanted the sex, he agreed. Therefore, it becomes consensual, unlike in this case.


Finally, while he could still talk casually to the hyung, it doesn't nullify the rape that happened. Yes, he is used to rough sex, but that doesn't mean he didn't say stop in this particular instance. Yes he was scared becausecthis is the first time that the hyung slapped him. I would wager that this is also a dirst time where the hyung did not wait for his response and just went ahead to shove his thing "just because his lover got used to it."
The point is, no = rape. Everything else you mentioned is normalizing the situation.

There is a difference between hating a person and hating what a person did. Anyway it would seem to me that you are the one that can't get over this. I am not sure why though if you are the one insisting that it is not a personal attack.

Then wouldn't the MC said stop in the beginning rather than slow down if he doens't consent to it, and he wouldn't say "not yet".

Also I don't think that the hyung gets that rough with him because the MC got used to it rather he got worked up and jealous because he saw the MC riding some other guys car.

How about this, would you consider this rape?

http://www.mangago.zone/read-manga/if_you_re_gonna_plow_go_deep/uu/to_chapter-1/

Btw, you don't have to worry about me using this to justify real life since I am more of a VB. Lol

In this instance, the guy asked if he got lube and a condom. So there's a 'yes' at the start. Now if you look at the next part, he said 'stop' and 'there's no way that'll fit' so obviously that's a 'no'. Yes I've read this before and it is steamy, I admit. But that doesn't change the fact that he said no. Yaoi normalizes rape, but you should still be able to determine of the sex is consensual or not. The very definition of rape is that it is forced sex. So reading it to be normal in yaoi doesn't mean that it isn't rape.

Look at abuses in actual rape situations, sometimes, the girl or boy says yes at first. But they could become scared and reject the sex. Then it becomes rape if it is forced.

To confirm, you also consider this as rape? If that is the case then we have a different threshold in which is rape and which is considered rough sex. Not saying that you are wrong but to begin with, our axioms and definitions are inconsistent.

Although for this I think you wouldn't label the other guy as a rapist as you did in this topic. Hopefully you will remain enthusiastic in expressing your thoughts on the next events in this manhwa. Lol

For reference here are some that I considered rape.

http://www.mangago.zone/read-manga/charming_scarface/uu/ibx_chapter-4/pg-3/

http://www.mangago.zone/read-manga/the_guy_next_door_s_just_my_type/uu/iur_chapter-1/pg-22/

Well either way both this and the hyung/MC scenes are both hot as fuck. Hahahaha

I agree that we have different threshold in considering what is and what isn't rape.

Cheers mate :)

Basically what I understand from your statement is that MC has given his consent but rescinded it when he said "stop". Kindly correct me if I'm wrong. Btw if you like this manhwa you might also consider

http://www.mangago.zone/read-manga/saezuru_tori_wa_habatakanai/

The mentioned manga have just release an animation I recommend you to watch it, although it is quite messed up as well. Lol. Cheers!

Yep, though upon checking again, this might be considered a dubcon because of the unclear line bet his yes and no. The key the final yes or no for the penetration.

Also, just to be clear, I've checked my previous comments here and noted that I used the wrong word. The fallacy I was referring to should be "appeal to normality" instead of "gaslighting."

Thanks for sharing your recomm :). I've actually started reading this months ago because I really liked this manga from the same author (see link) because I really like heart-wrenching one-sided love stories which become mutual. And also because Saezuru has an anime which I want to watch after reading, but due to much isekais arriving I haven't had time and feel a bit daunted with how many chapters this manga contain.

http://www.mangago.zone/read-manga/soredemo_yasashii_koi_o_suru/

Cheers mate! :)

You should watch the anime of Saezuru, although it miss some events in the manga I think the delivery of the story is quite something. Actually if you haven't read the manga yet, it is better to watch the anime (due to how they ended the anime).

I see :)

That's why I usually read the manga before the anime. Thanks!

Btw, you should read the "main" story first before the "side" story for better appreciation.

Main - http://www.mangago.zone/read-manga/doushitemo_furetakunai/

Ohh I have read it already xD after the side story