Kazlur's Topics (456)

Omg, LMAO

Maybe because the comic he is drawing is based on their relationship...? I don't know, I haven't finished all the chapters yet.

It's because before they had sex, Sun Hwa first said no and tried to cross his legs. Sunbae pushed his legs open and kept touching him. They are counting the leg pushing and touching and licking and the unconsenting sexual contact as rape. It is at least a minor battery, and the penis touching and licking is sexual assault (which is broader than rape) or some lesser charge in many places. It is certainly moral wrong to keep going when someone says no. However, they are ignoring the fact that Sunbae then says he won't penetrate without consent and that Sun Hwa thinks about how it tingles, and if he should, and then thinks "I can't hold back anymore," and says, "okay," (giving consent to penetration).

Rape is sexual penetration without consent. Sun Hwa consented to penetration. Sunbae was wrong to keep touching and teasing Sun Hwa after Sun Hwa said no, but it was not rape because there was no penetration. Further complicating matters is that Sun Hwa then specifically gives consent out loud. He does this not because he is afraid, but because he feels really good and wants to have sex. It's not simple nor is Sun Hwa such a total victim, no matter how much of bastard Sunbae may turn out to be.

There is no way that's a rape. Sun hwa masturbated next to him loud and clear and the sunbae give a helping hand, and he agreed to it when the sunbae ask him if he could penetrated him. Its true that Sun hwa was saying No when Sun bae keep touching and licking him, but he is a MAN for GODSAKE, even a women could put up a better fight than that. that's the loopholes in most Yaoi with rape theme, rather than struggle and run for their dear life, all the victim only moaning NO No No while shaking their hips, even a women dont get wet while being raped. What do expect then when the reader didnt really mind when the rapist and the victim ended up together.

So saying "no" doesn't count because they enjoy sex? Also, women CAN get wet when raped. It's not like your body says, "Wait, this isn't consensual, so I shouldn't get an orgasm." That's not how it works. "He didn't put up a fight" is also bullshit reasoning. I'm not saying that he did or did not get raped, but your argument is flawed.

Yeah, only the agreement matters. Its true that in stories, especially erotica and romances, rape can play a different role than it does in real life and may be art of a ravishment trope, but it is still rape--just fictional rape as a eroticized or romanticized story element as oppressed to more realistic rape as a traumatic or sensationalized story element.

Neither physiological responses nor not fighting back equals consent. Consent means agreement.

part...opposed..sigh. I would be dangerous if I could type.

oh is that so. I heard a lot of news about women getting raped, how their vagina bleeding and getting torn off.

What I mean is if he really mean No, he could at least push him away, why did he just laying there and enjoy it? If really didnt want to have sex, he could make it Loud and Clear. oke imagine situation like this, someone make an advance at you, but you didnt want to at first, but he keep touching you while saying, are you sure you didnt want this then you feel good and aroused, so you just give in and enjoy it, then it count as rape?

I wonder how the police or the doctor can differentiate if it was rape or consentual sex from the physical evidence. there is no way words alone is enough as a proof..

thats what I'm saying, I read a lot yaoi, and the Uke always said to the seme in the middle of having sex 'No No, Dont, Stop, Dont touch me there' even though its mean the opposite.

In that case, Sun Hwa isnt Raped, he said 'Okay, sunbae'. Here's the link
http://www.mangago.zone/read-manga/the_baker_on_the_first_floor/uu/the_baker_on_the_first_floor-chapter-13/12/

It depends on what the rapist does. Sometimes the rapist may cause tearing and bleeding, others may take the time to get a psychological response, and everyone's body is different in how it may react. Chances are the rapes you hear about on the news are the most brutal types of stranger rape that occur. Most cases of rape are 'acquaintance rape' where the rapist new and was at least somewhat trusted by the survivor, and sometimes those rapists use BS lines to justify what they did.

in real life, not only does no mean no, but a lack of response (words or acts) that indicate agreement means no too. Consent is absolutely necessary, and it must be affirmatively expressed either by words or by actions that indicate all parties want to have sex. By actions I don't mean not fighting back. I mean jumping on someone and putting his dick into you (assuming he has indicated he wants to). It must be clear consent. Only yes means yes.

physiological response. knew. I'd turn off auto-fill/auto correct, but then it only gets worse. Sorry.

PS Witness credibility plays a role in the "he said, she said" situations. Sometimes there is a pattern of occurrences or other evidence. But just because all rapes cannot be proven in court does not mean they are not rapes.

Yes, in this case "okay" means consent. It's just the other factors that are irrelevant.

And it is important to notice the difference between fictional rape or rape fantasies and any real life situation. Many rapes in yaoi are used as a "ravishment" fantasy, and should not be taken as realistic in any way. But they are still rapes because there was a lack of consent. It's just that as a purely fictional story element, they function differently than real life.

In real life, we must teach people that consent is absolutely necessary, and no situation justifies taking the other person's choice regarding sex away. This is an especially important lesson to teach boys and men (since most rapes are perpetrated by men, and some men claim to be confused about how consent works). Only yes means yes.

Doesn't change the fact that it was initially sexual assault.

Vaginas are generally torn in cases of rape because it indicates especial violence. It's normal for the vagina to tear during sex, especially if you're in experienced, as is bleeding, but rips in certain areas of the vagina indicate force. There can be no tears or tears in "normal" places, but it depends on the circumstances. (I used to watch a lot of CSI)

My point is I don't care if it was or wasn't rape (though honestly, that's debate; some people would still consider it rape, I'm not sure if I would or not, but I definitely don't like it). It was not okay to do. The fact that he said "yes" later does not get rid of the fact that he initially said "no" and continued to get groped anyways.

And THAT is exactly why something isn't rape, not the bullshit reasons the other person gave. After all, how can the rape occur if the act didn't occur?

I should point out, however, that only in cases of rape does the character of the plaintiff seem to play the largest role wrt witness credibility in 'he said, she said' situations. So I think it's BS as well that people automatically equate no rape conviction with no rape ever having occurred.

There is also a difference between criminal rape and non-criminal rape. Criminal rape is the one prosecuted by the courts. But, for the reasons I gave, above, and others, just because no one was convicted of criminal rape doesn't mean no such thing occurred.

I really DO love you, now!

Let's just all agree that actual rapists can burn in hell.

YES, you made the best point about the difference between fictional and real(istic) rape, here. It's the function it serves, not purely whether it was fictional or not. I learned something new, today! I can better argue my case and, hopefully, be less bombastic at the same time! So, thanks!

When Sun hwa was masterbating Sun bae found out, and forced himself on Sun hwa,SO in order to not escalate things he gave in. But pay attention to the story Sun hwa wrote he forced him several times

Agreed

That's tru, and I will never have a problem with fictional RAPE, ITis the best

Well, I think it's a little more complicated. I think Sun Hwa gave in because he was horny and he waned to have sex. Sun Hwa's ambivalence and lack of ability to process his feelings and assert himself confuses things (it doesn't mean it's okay to ignore him when he says no though). I don't think he said okay because he was afraid things would escalate. I think he said okay because he changed his mind--his horniness overcame his panic at what was happening. So, while Sunbae is acting badly, Sun Hwa does freely choose to have sex.

I don't think Sun Hwa feels raped at that point. I believe he is confused and overwhelmed, but not afraid or feeling bullied yet.

Wait.

I'm guessing that flashbacks will show us an unhealthy relationship develops and that at some point Sunbae will do something horrible. I think we should acknowledge that Sun Hwa does want to have sex (now and at other times), and he is complicated and has issues asserting himself. That doesn't make it okay to take advantage of him--it's only a recognition of his inner conflicts.

I definitely see the latter half as rape. Okay, so we get that Sun Hwa was masturbating and Sunbae was coming on to him when he noticed him doing so. Sun Hwa was probably just saying "no" because he was confused about the situation, like whether or not he enjoyed being in this situation. But over time, all the foreplay that was going on made him really horny. When Sunbae asked Sun Hwa if he wanted him to "put it in," Sun Hwa was most likely thinking that if Sunbae cared enough about doing foreplay at all and getting him off, he would probably be gentle during sex too. His "okay" was to consent for the kind of sex that both parties could enjoy. He didn't say "yes" because he wanted to get hurt. You definitely see it on Sun Hwa's face that his expectations were shattered. The two of them weren't on the same page, but it's all Sunbae's fault, not the victim's.

Also, suri, I think it's sad that you think that men always have to be "strong," at least stronger than women. We need to see past that traditional way of thinking because everyone is different. This kind of thinking is what makes boys feel pressured because they feel as though they aren't "real men" if they don't comply to society's expectations.

Ya'll really getting heated over this "was it rape?" thing. Chillout, it's fiction.

It is just fiction, but for the sake of discussion, I for one don't think it has anything to do with a character being male. I also hate it when female survivors are shoved into a narrow role of 'victim' and not seen as complex people with flaws and inner conflicts and desires too. i didn't read the story the same you you did, but everyone has different interpretations. It makes the discussions interesting.

Agreed. I found it rapey. He say yes under especial circunstances, when he has been forcely aroused, his mind is a mess, and he is not given consent to being penetrated with violence is obvious. Besides, not fight back is not an invitation to do whatever he wants. Its common in this situation to freeze and get paralisized. The mind and the body are two different things, force someone to almost have a orgasm and then make him beg to have it, is more easier than you think and then left the victim-blame and many conflict with the concept of his sexuality and his own body.

It wasnt rape. it was forced but wasnt rape. lots of time in a man/woman realationships the male one doesnt want sex (isnt in a mood tired or whatever) but the woman jump him seduce him and make a mood no one call it rape :| but if it was reverse some people call it rape.and by the way he was Masterbuting next to him.when u do that in someones bed that means u had something for him even if u werent aware of that.people dont just do that in someones house offen :| and trust me even not violence rapes arent this sweet

If a woman forced herself on a man then I would call it rape. I also don't think you can classify how "sweet" a rape is. Again, I'm not saying he was raped or not, but your logic is flawed.

Two most comments arguments they have in this site is "but it is just a fiction and not real life" and "as long as they like it's not rape". This is really getting really old %90 percent of yaoi has rape in it and most of them are let's rape this guy and turn him to gay.
I don't know why so many mangaka use this trope I don't care much and I am a victim. But this pages long arguments about victims and situation really bothers me. I don't know how many of you molested like I was or worse raped but I feel strong when I read this rape scene not be bothered by it because I moved on. So please stop about this arguments of what is ethical or not, what is rape or not because everyone is different, have different coping mechanisms and most of you who make this arguments don't even know what we been through so please stop it. I would be happy to not see about other peoples opinions about what victims like I might feel because they bother me more than 2d drawn comics with rape scenes.
TLDR: I should move on to another site so Goodbye everyone.

You just completely misconstrued what I wrote, so if you want to make me the bad guy go ahead. Have fun on your new website, or stay here. Just remember that things on the internet can differ greatly from the intent depending on how you read it, and I think you just read my post and completely took it to mean something else. So don't put words into my mouth.

I am sorry for what you have been through. You are not alone. Sadly, rape and abuse are common. I don't want to start discussions that are too personal, but it is likely that most people who have strong feelings on this topic one way or the other all have our reasons. But as you said, everyone reacts differently.

It seems sometimes hard to separate discussions of motives and actions of characters from some of the personal issues we face. I don't think most people are wondering what survivors in general might feel when we discuss a specific character. Too many of us already have our own experiences. But for these discussions, we are talking about specific characters in specific stories--but it does get messy because we do have tendencies to project out own feelings. It's human.

If these types of discussion bother you, you should definitely avoid the comments sections. As you said, everyone deals with issues in her or his own way. Some of us may use fiction to work through various feelings, or to transform things and gain a sense of power, or whatever. Some of us hate the very things that help others, though it comes from a similar wrong done to us personally. So, sometimes we make comments that come from different perspectives on this. We are all different as to how we see things and what helps or hinders us.

TLDR: I am truly sorry it bothers you, but it helps me.

same ╮(￣▽￣)╭ i totally need some holy water

Mhmm, same.

"read" -fap, fap, fap, fap!-

sadists for life man and even me ive read this so much that i think i already memorize the whole scenes,and every time i ''read'' fap fap fap fap!!! everytime