Anonymous's Topics (668)

I am on the brink of putting the manga down... but I can't... I'm uncomfortable as fuck but I must know how it ends... please wish me luck, comrade.

Good luck, friend. I hope you make it through this without any trauma.

Well i see that line a lot in yaoi and hentai so its good to me -┐(￣ヮ￣)┌

And it went in like that for two entire years so that is overkill

For real

Actually he hasn't done anything which prevent him to learn properly. He just took his usually seat, and coffee, (which are not his properties so...). He sat next to him but he didn't even talk to him. He never crossed the line, never been disrespectful, never bullied him, and never prevented him to study or anything so..... I must admit that he kinda looks like a stalker because to know all his habits I presume that he followed him everywhere, but overall, he hasn't done anything serious, it's mostly childish.

Yes he has crossed the line he is literally invading his space you may think its trivial but its not. A lot of people take their study time and days seriously and for this dude to come fuck that up because he mad he failed because ove his own behavior is ridiculous. If I were Sangwoo I would go to the head of the school and than he would really have something to be upset about.

1st character is clearly not neurotypical given how much these changes affect his life. It's not just a minor inconvenience for him, see how the author portrayed his inner reaction in class.

2nd character's behavior is intentionally triggering someone who possibly is ND, that's bullying. Bullying is never not serious or just mostly childish.

He has been disrespectful and crossing the line from the very beginning, Sangwoo says that he can only learn well in that seat and now that he has to sit somewhere else he cannot learn properly. He is preventing him from learning in class and by showing up in the Library the time he goes there he is also affecting his private studying(because we all know he isn't just going to sit next to Sangwoo quietly).

Don't forget that Sangwoo also has a job which means he probably doesn't have much time to study at home. If red shows up at his workplace also then that would cause additional problems in his work life as well. He drinks that coffee because he likes it and because it energises him the most, ready to study, so taking all of it is terrible as well.

Jut because it's childish doesn't make it harmless. It is childish and it is also very detrimental to Sangwoo's everyday life and usual routine.

You are all right actually, I personally think that the MC is autistic that why all those things affect him this much, but Sangwoo is not aware of that, he just think that he's kinda odd. Objectively speaking he hasn't done any harms at all. ONLY THE READERS KNOWS how it affect the MC. Plus any other people wouldn't have been this much disturbed. Using one chair or one brand of coffee, or sitting next to someone without saying anything is NOT harmful. People are not usually disturbed for this much, but it happens the MC is more special than others (not in a pejorative way, of course) but Sangwoo IS NOT SUPPOSED TO KNOW. Objectively speaking, if the MC wasn't the way he is, it would be just childish. And as I said, only the readers knows how he is.

I understand but some people just think these things and aren't autistic.

Also, I have never read a manga or Webtoon with an autistic character, I'd like to but no matter how much I looked there really weren't any.

That's partially why I doubt he's meant to be autistic, he's just meant to be odd, along with the fact that not every person who is like this is autistic.

If you have any can you recommend them?

I know, but it doesn't change the fact that Sangwoo isn't supposed to know how affected he is... Because usually, people don't get upset for this kind of thing (or they get mildly upset but not to the point of preventing them to study well)

This is sadly the very first time that I read a webtoon with a MC who looks (because it wasn't confirmed) autistic ! So I have no recommendations sorry ╥﹏╥ And it is just assumptions of mine because I'm a psycho major and when I looked at my study notes I realized that the MC had many behaviors related to the autism spectrum disorder. I thought he was just a bit odd at first but when I looked at my notes, everything seemed logical haha ! I really hope, the author will confirms it and not make it look like he just eccentric ٩(๑❛ᴗ❛๑)۶

Jaeyoung knows this affects him, that's why he does it. If he knows this triggers him, it is obvious he has the necessary information to know he is NA.

Thus, because you cannot know who is NA and who is not, it is common sense not to try to trigger anyone at all.

(I don't know what you mean by "NA", but let's remplace it by "behavioral disorder", my point will be the same) That's literally why I said it's childish, he obviously doing it to trigger him, but not to the point of being a bully or interfering (purposely) with his studies or mental health which he doesn't know anything of. Not even the author confirms whether he's has a behavioral disorder or not, and if the readers didn't have his point of view, they wouldn't have known his way of thinking and would have thought that he's just eccentric (and I think that's how Sangwoo sees him). And I'm pretty sure that even some readers didn't even realized that he may have a BD. Just because we both realized it doesn't mean that it's obvious. I believe that in Sangwoo eyes (and let's not forget that he's fictional), he's just triggering an odd guy to get his attention. This is literally what children do, this is purely childish. It's not as deep as him purposely bullying someone who is "NA".

You can dislike him because he's childish and immature but don't portray him as a disrespectful bully who purposely affect someone's mental health and studies because it's definitely not the case here. It may be a result of his childish behaviors but it's definitely not on purpose. ╮(￣▽￣)╭

"just triggering the odd guy to get his attention"

So he's pulling on pigtails, which is harassment. And remember that bullying is not always intentional, bullies believe they are just "having fun".

It doesn't matter if he knows Sangwoo is NA or not - which I support my theory that he has enough information to know bc he knows what triggers him down to minimum details - you don't trigger people on purpose, for no reason, specially if you 'like' them. That's pulling on pigtails, which is known to be a form of toxic relationship.

It is fine if you like him, after all he is supposed to be a hot character and people are biased towards beauty (that's how pretty popular people get away with bullying btw, bc ppl are shallow like that).

But don't try to convince me his behavior is just childish and harmless. It's very much harmful, and he knows that.

In the end you're just screaming "boys will be boys".

I'll not fight on the internet with a stranger for a fictif character, it was fun at first but now it's getting tiring. If you think you're right, then good for u pal

I feel like you were bullied in real life and now you're projecting your own traumas over a fictional story. It looks like you're identifying yourself as the MC so your point of view is not objective, and whatever I'm saying, you're just convinced that you're right as if all of this was real. So, the debate is useless.

I agree with Mozzarella, I've never been bullied before but I don't see how you can say that it isn't on purpose. Even if we exclude mental health from the issue, the fact remains that Red is completely disrupting Sangwoo's life. He is showing up at the library he always studies in to aggravate him.

Let me tell you how it disrupts his studies. Red showed up to all Sangwoo's classes dressed in bright red, a bright, alarming colour and not to mention Sangwoo's most hated colour and sitting in his usual place. Now, if Sangwoo sits next to him, he will constantly be distracted by the firetruck sitting next to him, and if he sits further away, he won't be able to see the board well.

This debate is not useless. It just surprises me that someone could possibly think that isn't bullying and/or harassment. It being fictional doesn't change the fact that you don't believe that Red's actions are those of a bully. It being fictional doesn't change the fact that if anyone were in Sangwoo's position, they'd be extremely bothered.

Back to the autism topic:

I still doubt Sangwoo being autistic, however, I feel that while it may fit a lot, you can't forget that sometimes even if you fit a lot of the symptoms for a disease or a mental health disorder it really doesn't mean you have it. Sangwoo could just be a person who thinks logically, is really smart, likes routine and is direct. It doesn't always equate to something else.

he is never stated to be autistic/neurodivergant in the original novel, so he probably wasn't written to be spectrum. that being said, it's fiction, people are most likely going to interpret it in whichever way they feel most comfortable with, so if nd people want to read Sangwoo as being nd because it makes him more relatable/likeable/whatever i don't really see any harm in that ٩(๑❛ᴗ❛๑)۶

True

ON one hand, he's doing all of this to trigger him ON PURPOSE, but on the other hand, how is he supposed to know how affected he is by those things ? Because objectively speaking, it's just some small things such as a color, a seat (which is not his) or a brand coffee (which is not his). Objectively speaking, it's just some small little things which can annoy someone but not to the point of being so trigger that it distrubed his studies or mental health. We only know how perturbed he is by all of those small things just because the readers know his point of view, but objectively speaking, if you didn't know his point of view, if you didn't know his reasons, if you didn't know how important it is for him, those things would be just seen as small little things such as a seat, or a brand coffee or a bright color which are kinda annoying but not really serious. I'm not saying that what Sangwoo is doing is right, and I'm definitely not saying that he is not triggering him on purpose, because as I said, he has the behaviors of child who wants to get his attention, it's super childish and immature (which could be a reason why people wouldn't like him). But if the MC wasn't the way he is, it wouldn't be seen as "harassment". But because he is the way he is, you see it as harassment and I can understand that, because it clearly has consequences on his mental health and studies, but only the readers know. Sangwoo's only purpose is to get his attention and I'm not saying that it is right, but it's not as deep as harassment (taking someone seat is not harassment, it can be annoying but it's not harassment). But as I keep saying since the very beginning, ONLY THE READERS KNOW how the MC is, because he's the main character so the readers know his point of view. Just try to look at the story from another angle, another point of view. I keep repeating myself over and over and now it's getting really annoying. If you think he's a bully, and I'm wrong then so be it. I don't give a shit anymore.

I said that it was just presumptions of mince and that the author didn't confirmed it tho

mine*

And since the beginning I mixed the character's names lmaoooo ("MC" is supposed to be "Sangwoo" and so "Sangwoo" is supposed to be the ""bully"" lol. SO sorry about that omg ╥﹏╥

I didn't mean to imply you did, sorry if it came across that way! ヾ(❀╹◡╹)ﾉ~

It's fine if you don't care anymore but I am putting myself in his shoes. I said before that removing any neurotypicalness from the equation it still remains the same.

I know for a fact that I would completely and totally hate it if someone did that to me. I have home directly to the internet and I have seen that the definition of harassment is 'behaviour that annoys or upsets someone', read that and tell me Red is not harassing Sangwoo. I don't think you REALLY read my argument before replying.

Yh, I understand

No, no sorry my bad, my bad, everything seem confusing right now lmao (￣∇￣")

Haha, I do that all the time

Okay so now I understand your point of view. So this is how you see it, because I thought you talked about "bullying", which is something like "seek to harm, intimidate, or coerce (someone perceived as vulnerable)" and it's not the case here. I mean it's sure is annoying but taking someone usual seat or brand coffee is harmless and not intimidating. But if we're talking about "behavior that annoy or upset someone" then now, we can agree lmao ! (≧∀≦)

I bet my point was even more confusing lmaooooo........ （/TДT)/

As always it was just a misunderstanding lmao, so sorry about that, I can be super annoying sometimes, but I swear I'm a nice person........ (￣∇￣")

I know i wasn't actually a part of you guys' discussion, but you shouldn't feel bad or annoying for being passionate and fighting for your opinion! misunderstandings happen, especially here since english is just a second(/3rd/etc) language for a lot of people. I think it speaks very well for you that you are able to admit that there was a misunderstanding.
Also, you actually do seem like a nice person imo, so really, don't worry about it too much (●'◡'●)ﾉ

Translation: You realized you lost the argument and is now trying to insult me to save face.

Sir, are you always this dense or is today a special occasion?

If he's doing this to trigger Sangwoo on purpose, it's because he knows it's gonna bother Sangwoo. That's the very definition of harassment.

I think you're not thinking objectively on this matter, because you're so set on defending your point of view that you'll see whatever you want to see, even if your arguments are contradictory.

You know what else is contradictory? Saying you'll no longer will fight on the internet and then keep on fighting on the internet.

OK so firstly, as you can see, I never felt like I was "loosing" the argument, I still believe that I'm not wrong and stated why. Secondly, you talk about harassment while I talk about bullying, those things are not the same, so the debate was biased anyway.
Also, you believe that he realized that he may be "neuro divergent" while I believe he did not realized it, (because it may be obvious for the readers but it's not necessarily the case for him since he doesn't know his point of view). And on this matter, there is no real truth since it's just presumptions.
That's funny because you're accusing me of something I accuse you of doing. So we are either both wrong or right.
And to conclude, I didn't want to fight with you but I don't have any problems talking or debating with others, they look nice. I don't mind having a debate but it's useless if you don't read what I'm writing or if I simply feel like it's going to nowhere.

Omg you're so damn sweet thank you for your understanding

Since I've already said my own and am finished with this debate, I just want to say, technically mozzarella wasn't doing the same because they never said they were done.

We can all be nice and respectful. Debate not fight.

Same, not to mention I'm always super confused about stuff.
The sentence I get the most is "You look so confused"" or "_______ looks so confused!"

I read what you are writing, I just think it's wrong.

Go back into your own comments and realise that you were the one who went as low as to try to discredit me first when you stated that I might have been bullied and therefore my opinion is biased and shouldn't hold credit.

The bottom line is that, whether Sangwoo is NA or not and whether Jaeyoung knew or mot is merely an aggravating clause in the subject, as Jaeyoung is purposefully doing things to bother him.

That's an asshole move, whether someone is NA or not. Even if Sangwoo is NT, Jaeyoung is doing things that he knows will bother him, with the very purpose of bothering him and messing up his life.

Call it whatever you want - bullying, harassment, whatever. But don't try to say what Jaeyoung is doing is harmless and just childish behavior, cuz we are clearly seeing it isn't harmless, regardless of what you think Jaeyoung's intentions are.

(Spoilers: his intention is not to play a harmless prank on Sangwoo).

I don't even understand why we're having this debate because we're basically saying the same things. Are you sure you're reading what I writing ? I'm saying that he's bothering on purpose and that it is childish and this is literally what you're telling me as if I was saying the contrary. I'm still convinced that your point of view is biased by your own past tho. The difference between our 2 point of views is that I don't condone his actions as much as you, I just think he's stupid and immature while you're saying he is the biggest asshole of the universe for bullying someone. And there is a difference between bullying and harassment, and I think that this difference is important, but apparently you don't and you think it's the same thing. And I'll keep thinking that he's behavior is harmless, it may be annoying but it's not that serious or that deep. Sincerely, I feel like we're going nowhere.

Basically we both agree on the fact that his behavior is not correct but at the same time we both think that the other is wrong, so now what ?

The difference is that you don't condone his action as much as me * (sorry, English not my mother tongue)

"Actually he hasn't done anything which prevent him to learn properly. He just took his usually seat, and coffee, (which are not his properties so...). He sat next to him but he didn't even talk to him. He never crossed the line, never been disrespectful, never bullied him, and never prevented him to study or anything so..... I must admit that he kinda looks like a stalker because to know all his habits I presume that he followed him everywhere, but overall, he hasn't done anything serious, it's mostly childish."

These are your words that sparked the discussion.

You claimed that what he did isn't serious, just childish. We clearly see it's not, it's having bad repercussions on his day.

Even if you claim he didn't know these repercussions would happen to this extent, fact is that he is purposefully triggering someone, knowing that his actions will bother him to some extent.

That his actions bothered another to an extent he didn't expect would just be analog to aberratio criminis, which would make his actions have at least constructive intention.

I don't think he is a scumbag and the worst, im fact, I think this is a BJ Alex situation where Jaeyoung will change and be happy in the end.

But rather than making assumptions about someone's personal experiences to discredit their point of view (which is awfully close to gaslighting btw), I question why you're so keen on excusing psychological harassment and downplaying the effects it has on the victim to exclude the culpability of the perpetrator.

Dude, why are you so aggressive?
What they were trying to convey is from what i understand that, yes, they agree that what jaeyoung did to sangwoo was totally not okay(especially given that sangwoo never actually did anything wrong, other then being rudely honest), because yes, it's clearly messing sangwoo up, a LOT. preventing someone from being able to concentrate at all in class, and basically making sure that they are uncomfortable 24/7 is OBVIOUSLY NOT OKAY.
but the thing is, even you have to admit that generally speaking? most people would NOT be bothered to this extent by the things jaeyoung has done. would they be annoyed and angry? well, duh. having your favourite seat in class taken is annoying. your favourite coffee brand being sold out is annoying. someone you dislike hanging around you all the time? annoying as FUCK. but you can't seriously believe that someone 'normal' (and please note i am using normal in quotation marks here because i am referring to the generally accepted societal norm, not my personal beliefs on that matter) would be this messed up over such seemingly small inconveniences.
again. i am NOT saying that sangwoo isn't the victim here, or that what jaeyoung did wasn't wrong. i am just saying that i, and from my understanding Aime, believe that while jaeyoung did intend to annoy and inconvenience sangwoo, and is obviously in the wrong for doing so, he had no idea that his actions would cause this much harm, and he still doesn't, because WE only know the extend of the harm he causes sangwoo because we can literally read sangwoo's thoughts. jaeyoung can not. he just sees his kind-of-crush not remembering who he is, and responds to it the way a toddler would, by, to him is just, pulling pigtails. he wants to be annoying, not seriously harmful.
does that make his treatment of sangwoo okay? No. he is unaware of the harm he causes, but he IS causing harm. No one is denying that though.

all in all, what i'm trying to say is, from my standpoint as a 3rd party it doesn't seem that you guys' general opinion differs all that much, beside some slight misunderstanding that were'nt helped by the fact that not everyone is a native english speaker. There is no reason to not try to be kind to other people when we can, no one was purposely trying to downplay anything.
(also just as a p.s., attacking an opponents personal experiences in order to discredit them in a debate is very, very common. and while it is generally considered to be very bad and unprofessional(aka what we would call a dick move), it is NOT gaslighting. Gaslighting is if person a tells person b 'i saw x yesterday!' and person b replied: 'no you didn't, you saw y! we were together when we did, don't you remember? are you sure you're okay?' it is stating facts that are untrue, insisting they are true, making someone doubt their own perception of what is happening to and around them, their own memory, everything. it is horrible. and it is not even remotely close to someone assuming something about you based on a short conversation)

also i'd like to apologize if what i said comes across as rude or offensive, i genuinely only meant to show that both of you seem to actually have very similar viewpoints, but i also realize that that is technically not my playe since i am in no way part of your discussion.

sorry for typos and grammar errors, english isn't my first language either (￣∇￣")

If you read the entire convo, you'd see thay Aime's arguments, as well as yours, is different than mine, on the degree that I believe constructive intent holds moral culpability, while you guys do not think so. In fact, I don't believe Jaeyoung didn't know it would bother Sangwoo that much.

You want to end the discussion, stop on let's agree to disagree, I'm fine with that. As I said, I see Jaeyoung as a Jiwon situation.

What I'm not okay with was that Aime started attacking me first, when they didn't have a comeback, by trying to be shady with what they imagine is my personal experience by saying that my judgement is impaired because I must have suffered bullying - and that is awfully close to gaslighting, more specifically, political gaslighting. What you described is denial gaslighting. I won't put up with it and I will defend myself.

You want to come for me for being aggressive, come for them as well. I'm not doing any different than what they did.

Ah, sorry, I must have missed that you thought jaeyoung was actually aware of how much harm he was causing with his actions.

In that case you are probably right that there wouldn't be much point to continue an argument, because while i see where you're coming from, i think we are just interpreting it differently, and it's not like there is a clear-cut right or wrong here, sind it was neither confirmed nor denied whether jaeyound wants to cause legitimate distress or just be a mild annoyance, at least at this point.

You are obviously right that Aime shouldn't have gotten rude/personally attacking, that's why i said that it was a dick move to do so, but i realize now that it sounded very generalized, and not like i thought that they, too, were in the wrong for attacking you! I'm sorry about that.

Also, this is not me saying you are wrong or anything so please don't take it that way, just genuinely asking, but from my understanding gaslighting is ALWAYS based on saying something that you KNOW is wrong, even in a political context(for example trump's 'fake news', russia denying that they had any presence in crimea despite having active operaives there etc). Where did you read/learn that political gaslighting was different?

I genuinely apologize if i made you feel ganged up on, that wasn't my intention. i was basically just trying to mediate, albeit poorly.

I keep telling you again and again that we do not have the same opinions so why the fuck do you keep trying to change my mind? I accepted that your opinion is different so can you please accept mine goddammit. You believe that he's perfectly aware of what he's doing I believe that at some extent he's not conscious of the consequences of his childishness. I'll keep thinking that he wants to trigger him like a child would, but without knowing how affected he is by all of this (even if his purpose is to affect him). I'll keep reading it without identifying myself as the MC and bothering someone doesn't mean bullying someone. And wtf are you talking about perpetrator and victim lmao that's so out of context and not the debate we are having. For me he's immature and childish now accept it. YES he's bothering him on purpose, NO he's not bullying him. If you don't know the definition of it, that's not my problem. It may have consequences on his psychological state but he's not doing it on purposes, he's not doing it to manipulate him or control him or any other bad intentions. There is a difference between bothering someone purposely and being a sadistic person who purposely play with the psychological/emotional state of someone. One is stupid, the other is alarming. In this fiction I don't see the seriousness and don't feel like he's an abuser and I'm pretty sure that's what the author wanted. I will not talk about what I think about "excusing psychological harassment and downplaying the effects it has on the victim to exclude the culpability of the perpetrators" because firstly the answer is obvious and I think that the simple fact that you're asking me that, is super offensive and secondly, and more importantly, this is not what we're talking about, we're talking about this fiction, this situation. And you see this situation as abuse and I don't. The story is not that deep, this situation is particular, the MC is annoyed but it doesn't seem like it affects him to the point he's desperate and emotionally drained, this situation is supposed to be comical and this yaoi is not psychological. If you don't agree then that's your opinion but I have mine so accept it. If you want to talk about abusers we can talk about killing stalking, painter of the night, down and dirty (or almost every yaois because the Stockholm syndrome trope is a fucking norm in yaoi). But in this one, I don't feel like he's an abuser or like he's toxic, and that's my opinion so accept it.
Don't try to change my mind it's useless. And if you think I'm a horrible person who excuses abusers behaviors then so be it. I don't care. I don't know you anyway and I know my principles.

OMG THIS!!!!!! This is exactly what I meant!!!! I couldn't have said it better. Thank you so much.

Mozzarella already said agree to disagree. The difference is that what you believe to be bullying differs from ours. I also believe that childish doesn't mean harmless it simply means immature. You two believe that this wouldn't affect you the same way it affects you, I, personally, believe that it would affect me even worse. You don't need to start using swear words. The person said they were mainly upset because you kept saying that it's because of personal experience.

We all have to calm down, this is a debate, not a fight, we are arguing our beliefs because we believe we are right, if the other person really doesn't understand, them we say 'agree to disagree' . No need to dig into personal lives, swear, insult, or hurt. Being kind and be respectful of viewpoints are the most important things in a debate. Other than getting your point across.

I tried to end it all calmly, with an open ending, such as "we were both right and wrong with different opinions and that there might have been a misunderstanding". I was so ready to finally ends this stupid debate and end it all with an "agree to disagree" but noooooooo they prefer to keep going over and over as if I was saying some bullshits and they were right and I was a dangerous person who excuses abusers's behaviors in real life. The proportions are getting way out of control because they talk about "excusing psychological harassment and downplaying the effects it has on the victim to exclude the culpability of the perpetrators" ???? wtf ?? I'm starting to swear (without insulting them) because it's the way I talk when someone gets on my nerves. This debate is useless and irritates me, but I didn't insult them anyway. They may have said "agree to disagree" but it's definitely not honest, because they keep going, they just wants to prove they're right and I'm wrong, and I feel like they're trying to open my eyes or something. Idk why they can't just accept that I have a different opinion and it's not because they don't agree that I'm wrong. I'll keep thinking that their personal life has an influence on the way they think, it's not an insult, it's not inappropriate, it's just a presumption of mine about why they have this opinion which differ of mine. I just want to ends this, but visibly, we're both way too stubborn. I finally accepted that it was useless to change their mind so I'm just waiting for them to accept my opinion even tho they don't agree with it and move on. They attacked me way before I started to say that they may have been bullied in real life (also, I said that because I had already wanted to end this debate without even trying to keep justifying myself but they triggered me by saying that I was saying this because I was "loosing" the argument lol). I was already irritated enough but now I'm really fed up with all of this, because it has been going for a while now. But I'm stubborn so I'll keep answering if they keep attacking me so yeah... ╮(￣へ￣)╭

I see, it's cool though. Everybody can have one of my home made chill pills.
one for Aime
one for Mozzarella
(They look suspicious but they work, I promise.)