Power, Responcibility and Consequences

Haha - if Asami turned his back on the underworld, he wouldn't be content to be a normal business man; he'd probably end up something like Tokyo’s version of Bruce Wayne. Philanthropist playboy by day, fights crime by night... He's already got the boy wonder, the car, the devoted man servant and the brooding down pat.

More seriously - Asami reasonable and not cruel? Not sure... I don't know if we're supposed to discount that his first act was to have Akihito beaten up and his next to kidnap, drug and sadistically rape him, given Yamane Ayano has said if she'd planned VF to be a series, it wouldn't have happened that way. But as it stands, Asami has been repeatedly shown to be a sadist and a rapist. Are we meant to think he routinely raped those who went against him as punishment before meeting Akihito? I think it's implied (when I see a boy as weak and cheeky as you, I can't help but want to torture him) but not clear.

There seems to be two people at present who could take over from him. One is Kuroda - the corrupt DA who knows Asami's business inside out. He's there in the wings with links to government and has been shown to be prepared to use his power to threaten people. Is he completely loyal to Asami, or is he working against him? Asami is quite clear that Kuroda’s loyalty is bought (they will obey my orders as long as they think they will gain something in return). The other is Mikhail, who with his kidnapping of Sudou, is starting to gather people around him who have a grudge against Asami and know his business. Either of those two could conceivably step into a power vacuum left by Asami’s absence.

Yeah, I also question just how kind and reasonable Asami is. Even if we discount volume one, we still have Asami's own word on the subject:

http://www.mangago.zone/read-manga/you_re_my_loveprize_in_viewfinder/mh/v05/c030.1/36/

"I crush those who stand in my way and retaliate against those who seek vengeance. That is my way. And I do whatever it takes to get hold of what I desire."

Bottom line, he's a criminal who does whatever he has to do to obtain his objective.

But he is also a brilliant businessman with an elite education. I would like to believe that he thought out all possible scenarios against the day he would either "retire" or heaven forbid, be killed or otherwise forced out. I'm certain a man with his intellectual capabilities would have had the foresight to plan against such scenarios as you suggest and would not walk away and leave an underworld war in his wake.

Unless he truly is cold-hearted enough not to care. He could sell off everything and buy an island in the South Pacific and live out his life far away from any chaos his departure might cause.

I think Asami was personally attracted to Aki, and that he does not necessary rape everyone who gets in his way. Beat them up, sure. But are you familiar with crime organizations? Beating people up is a way to get things done. Beating people up for no reason or because you re having a bad day is cruel.

My question is, seeing as there are going to be organizations where people are going to be beat up, do you want it to be for a reason or on a whim?

Reasonable is not always the same as "kind". I am saying that Asami is competent and reasonable, and that makes life better for those affected by his organization. Sure, he does what he needs to go gain his objective--but only to gain his objective. He doesn't do it to be cruel. There is a reason why he does what he does--you get something he wants. Knowing this, people can anticipate how to act if they do not want to be erased.

Just as people could avoid being erased by not getting in Asami's way, Aki could have avoided taking photos of Asami's business (or avoided gettign caught). Of course Asami's mean beat Aki up. That's what they do to people who interfere with there business. If they randomly grabbed people and beat them up because they didn't like the look of them, I'd be worried. Asami shows his S side to Aki--especially at the beginning, but that is personal and sexual. Compare that to how Asami treats the child who ran into him with the ice cream cone.

I think in terms of how Asami runs his organization, he is a reasonable criminal and a reasonable business man (and there isn't much difference between the two). If you stay out of his way or cooperate with him when necessary, you'll be fine. You can't say that about every crime lord. once more, Asami is competent and in control. That keeps things running smoothly as a rule. If you can't stop crime, you may as well have it controlled by someone reasonable. I am not saying Asami is "good" only that he could be a lot worse.

So what if Asami arranges a successor? Is there less "dark" in the word, or is Asami merely turning over his duty to someone else? I still think it would be hard to fill Asami's shoes, and I don't think the others would necessarily do as good a job of running things. Does it make Asami "good" to let others do the dirty work and trust they don't do worse than he would? Or would it merely please Aki and make his personal life better at the expense of the greater good?

I don't think Asami is "good", but he isn't all "bad' either. He is more neutral, and you can trust him to act with self interest. Some things he does are bad, and some good--like most people he is both.

Some additional thoughts (sorry).

I do not see Kuroda as a corrupt prosecutor. I see him as a practical prosecutor in a corrupt system. I think Kuroda has a *personal* loyalty to Asami, and that the government works with Asami unofficially because the government finds Asami useful. I don't think Kuruda is a criminal for profit, so much as he is trying to keep things running smoothly. I don't think he would take over.

Have you ever read about the Mitsui clan? They were merchants and business leaders with underworld ties. They worked with the government but could be brutal (e.g. using prisoners of war for slave labor or concealing opium in cigarette to get people hooked on drugs). Now I am not saying the powerful are "good" and that atrocities should not be stopped, but the government certainly found this group useful in its time.

I see Asami as being a more modern and slightly less powerful leader of something like the Mitsui. Kuroda is no less a part of government because his relationship with Asami. It just reflects the power balance and mutual assistance between government and leading organizations at this time.

As for Mikhail taking over. I think he would be a lot worse than Asami, even assuming Japanese people would accept a Russian leader (which may not be as easy as you think). Mikhail is more pointlessly cruel and less competent than Asami.

First, Mikhail's cruelty is capricious and for his own entertainment instead of simply a means to an end. Mikhail's actions on the boat show he likes to stir up trouble that does not necessarily bring him profit or something he wants. The way Mikhail goaded Yuri and then left Yuri with Aki was not to stop Aki from doing something Mikhail didn't want Aki to do and it brought Mikhail no profit. It did not improve Mikhail's bargaining position. Mikhail set that up being fully aware of what a crazy, violent prick Yuri is, and Mikhail did it just to be a SOB. Furthermore, Mikhail goaded Asami, pushing him till Asami was already fingering his gun before Asam talked to Aki. Mikhail knowing contributed to putting Assami into a state of mind where Assami shot the messenger. All of these acts reveal a personality that like drama for the sake of drama, and the type of person who is cruel for the "lulz".

Secondly, Mikhail is not as competent as Asami, as seen by the fact that Mikhail had been trying to get that deed for a long time, but Asami just breezed in and got it. Even when Mihkail thought he would swoop in and steal the prize, Mikhail bungled it. As a result of Mikhail's incompetence, people died for nothing and no one even profited.

I still think Asami would cause more harm than good by stepping down.

You are making some fairly large assumptions, though. First, you are assuming that Asami pretty much controls all illegal activity in Tokyo, if not Japan in general, something we have no evidence of. Yes, we know that some people tremble at Asami's name, but that doesn't mean he's the only player on the board. And really, a two-bit procurer like Sakazaki isn't the best bellwether of a man's influence. But you're assuming that if Asami is removed in any capacity, his loss would create chaos. Since the manga doesn't give us enough information on the underworld of the manga universe, this is a leap. We don't know how bad things would get, if there would really be disastrous repercussions if Asami was out of the picture.

The other big assumption is that Asami is as good as it gets, that there isn't someone else out there just as capable, powerful and reasonable. There must be more players in this universe than the known candidates (Kuroda, Mikhail, Feilong.) Just because he or she hasn't been part of the story line doesn't mean he or she doesn't exist.

So it doesn't follow that the loss of Asami automatically means things will get worse. They could, in fact, get better. There simply is too much we don't know.

It's also an assumption that Asami's aim is for things to be less dark. Fairly dealing with his criminal employees and even other criminals doesn't equal less dark. He is still a criminal. And it also supposes that anyone who would succeed him would be worse. You are assuming that there is no greater or more reasonable criminal in Japan than Asami and that no one else would ever be able to equal him. Don't forget, the man has made some serious blunders in his time.

I'm not sure when Aki and his desires came into it. I didn't mention it. But Aki or no Aki, the fact is that at some point, Asami will be gone. He isn't immortal. Whether he removes himself voluntarily, is killed, or dies of a heart attack, his tenure will come to an end at some point, that is why I think he would be smart enough to have thought it through, unless he is callous enough not to care what he leaves behind. But you assure us he is a better man than that.

Whoa. Mikhail is responsible for Asami shooting that guy? Poor Asami has so little control over his own impulses that he could be manipulated by incompetent Mikhail like that? And this is the guy keeping all of Tokyo's criminal element in line? Is it Mikhail's fault they were even on that boat? No, that was Asami's fault, which he acknowledges. So in fact, it was as a result of Asami's incompetence that he was at war with Feilong at all.

I don't mean to imply that Asami's aim is to make things less "dark". I don't think "good' or "bad" is absolute, nor that "legal" is necessarily "good." I am saying that Asami's aim is to obtain his objective, and therefor he can be trusted to act in self interest. When I say Asami is reasonable, I mean he is utilitarian, logical and predictable. We can all understand why Asami does what he does, and this allows us to predict his behavior. It's orderly (if not lawful). While his goal may not be to serve the greater good, the greater good may be inadvertently served. It certainly isn't helped simply by having someone else do what Asami does now.

While we do not know that Asami's group is the most powerful, it has been implied that he is a major player, and whenever a major player falls, there is a power vacuum that leads to competition. As for whether of not someone else could do a better job--it is possible--but none of the characters I have seem so far would fit the bill. Kuroda is a prosecutor, not a business man or group leader. Mikhail and Fei are foreigners, and I don't think the Japanese ranks would accept either one. Fei still acts too much on his own emotions, as evidenced by his obsession with Asami, Mikhail in particular would be much worse for the people he leads for the reasons I explained in an earlier post: he is pointlessly cruel and incompetent.

Of course Asami will die or retire someday. But that doesn't mean he should wuss out in the meantime. I am not assuring you that Asami is a "better man". What I am saying is he is the best *leader* I have seen in this manga so far. A good leader and a good man are not the same thing. Asami is effective, competent and logical. The fact that this may make life easier on people his organization affects is not his goal--but it is important from a big picture perspective. I don't see another leader in the manga who would do a better job.

Even Asami has emotions and Mikhail was purposefully pushing Asami's buttons at a time when Asami was particularly vulnerable. My point is not that Asami does things for a reason, whereas Mikhail does things just to f*ck with people.

Doh--how did the word "not" get in there?

Anyway, I can't stop myself from replying to this part (nothing personal--I like talking about this manga): "No, that was Asami's fault, which he acknowledges. So in fact, it was as a result of Asami's incompetence that he was at war with Feilong at all."

Asami's original goal was to have Fei in charge of Baishe--which Asami achieved.

Asami's next goal was to get the deed to barter in exchange for Aki--which Asami achieved.

Asami's final goal in that story was to get Aki back--which Asami achieved.

Asami had no problem with the boat--that was Mikhail's assertion and I for one do not buy it. I think Asami could have handled any acts by Fei's men just fine. Look at how he handled them the first time Asami rescued Aki from Fei.

Asami did not cause Mikhail to be on the boat. How could that be Asami's "fault"?

Mikhail's goal was to get the deed--which he failed to do.

Mikhail's other goal was to get Fei--which Mikhail failed to do.

Putting the issue of goading aside, if Mikhail had not kidnapped Aki, Asami would not have shot the messenger. While that doesn't mean Asami isn't responsible for his actions, it does mean Mikhail is also responsible. Asami's actions were entirely predictable, and Mikhail knew it--even played with it. The fact is Mikhail's man might not have died if Mikhail had been less of a prick, both with Yuri and Asami. Regardless, the major point is Mikhail failed to achieve his goal, so the death was for nothing from Mikhail's perspective.

After being goaded, Asami killed in anger over Aki's voice. Asami's goal was to punish the people who did that to Aki. Asami succeed. It wasn't pointless for Asami--just for Mikhail. Furthermore, Asami got Aki back, so from Asami's perspective it served a purpose.

So in summary, Asami 3/3, Mikhail 0/2 (or -1 if you count losing one of his men).

Every point here is canceled out by the fact that while in theory, Asami achieved his original goal, he did it at great expense, creating a monster in Feilong and setting up a war between them. That is all on Asami and nothing else in your string of goals would even have been necessary if Asami hadn't bungled that so badly. So yes, Asami is responsible for the fact that he, Feilong and his men and Aki are on the boat, which attracted Mikhail's attention. So if we want to use your logic, then Asami is responsible for Mikhail taunting him because Mikhail wouldn't have even been there if Asami hadn't set this whole thing in motion seven years previously. Your turn.

And Mikhail did not kidnap Aki. Feilong's turncoats did. Why? Because they didn't like the way Feilong was handling the situation because Feilong was too emotionally involved in his feelings about Asami. Which again, is Asami's fault. So things were quite different in this scenario than they were the first time Asami rescued Aki from Fei. With some of Fei's men turned rogue, Asami might not have had it as easy as you suppose.

Asami got Aki back but not whole, not until Aki had been traumatized, roughed up and shot. And Aki wouldn't even have been in that situation if, once again, Asami hadn't made an enemy of Feilong. Asami also lost a valuable mole that had been in place for nearly seven years. So he got Aki back but at a cost.

So if Asami is three for three, it's on blunders. That whole arc was Asami one step behind, desperately trying to clean up messes that he was largely responsible for setting in motion.

Mikhail wanted the deed for a reason, not just to fuck with someone. He understood it's monetary value. And I think we'll find in the current arc that Mikhail has solid reasons for what he's up to. Just because he's more laid back about what he's doing doesn't mean he doesn't have clear goals.

But this is what you are saying, that Asami is some kind of benevolent bad guy and that his loss can only mean things will get worse and not better.

I don't even know what you mean by "wuss out." You mean just by walking away? How is that wussing out? That would actually be a huge triumph. "I got mine and now I'm going to go enjoy it."

If Asami vacated his position (for whatever reason), the void would instantly fill. There'd likely be a power struggle, but eventually someone new would come out on top who would be able to maintain a satisfactory balance. No one profits when the underworld falls into chaos. Factions will come to a temporary truce just to avoid this.

I think it's very possible it could be Fei Long (since he has the resources and manpower to pull it off), but it would be necessary for him to put a Japanese proxy in place and rule it from the shadows.

At this point, I don't think Mikhail could pull off such a thing. He's attempted twice now to take over Bai She and failed... though it could be he wasn't putting in a earnest effort either time. He could be just poking around, looking for weakness. We really don't know enough about him yet.

I always wonder what type of motivation led Asami to be in the position he is in now. There is no record of him until he attended university. Is it as simple as a desire for money and power? He already has more money than he knows what to do with. He could back off his more dangerous ventures without losing anything significant. Why keep taking risks and sticking his neck out? An egotisical urge for power? For someone with the power he does have, he seems to be nonchalant about it. He also keeps a somewhat low profile.

The thing that has my curiosity fired up is when Kuroda alluded to "the higher-ups" ( or "the superiors" in the translation here). It could be that Asami might also be a proxy for someone else more powerful.

1) I don't think Asami created a "monster" in Fei. I think Fei is a promising if immature leader of a difficult group, and he has always lived in a kill or be killed world. I think Fei has a way to go to be up to Asami's level, as evidences by how Fei let his obsession with Asami cloud his judgement. Fei is responsible for who Fei is, and who Fei becomes. Neither Asami or Fei are perfect, but both are usually good at what they do.

2) Fei's issues with Asami are more personal in nature, and the organizations have more of a cold war than all out blood in the streets conflict on a regular basis. This can be changed. To a point, Fei is still useful in his position to Asami and the people Asami works with. More importantly, there is still a good chance of reaching an accord with Fei in the future.

3). Fei is responsible for Fei's feelings and Fei's actions. Men have to learn how to take rejection better, even if they run a powerful criminal gang. Fei taking Aki was personal. It was not related to Asami's business or organizational leadership. Asami didn't "make" Fei decide to treat Asami as an enemy. Asami saved Fei's life, but then failed to stay and love Fei. Fei could have just let it go, but he did that spoiled man thing.You might see Fei's butt-hurt as Asami's mess--but it inspired Fei to rise up in ranks and it served a purpose. If it was a "mess" not to control Fei's heartache, then it was a personal mess, not a business mess.

4). Asami still achieves his goals. Your arguments about costs do not change the goals. The cost to Aki or even the Yoh were not the point. The goal was to get Aki back and Asami got Aki back. Paying a cost to achieve a goal makes sense. Paying a cost because you felt like being an asshole and then failing at your goal is just stupid.

5) The turncoats kidnapped Aki for Mikhail. It was Mikhail's plan to achieve a goal. Mikhail failed. The other points you mentioned just show why it wouldn't be good for Fei to take over for Asami.

6) Aki was originally taken by Fei because Aki wouldn't stay in the damn hotel room or even let things go after Aki got his friends back. Aki got Aki kidnapped, and Aki knew what Fei was like when Aki made those choices. That's on Aki--and Aki is Asami's Achilles heel.

The fact the Asami does not control everyone or everything does not make Asami at fault. Being wounded isn't a blunder. It is human. Not reciprocating someone's unrealistic obsession isn't a blunder. It is human. Not chaining your stupid-ass uke to a wall isn't a blunder--it's failure to service part of the fan base--wait, I mean it's human.

Asami wasn't always one step behind reacting. Asami had a plan in motion that Aki messed up. Then Aki got Aki kidnapped, and Asami had to bail Aki out. Asami made a plan to get Fei's deed to exchange for Aki. Notice that Asami did not stumble stupidly after Aki immediately without a plan. Asami assessed the information, made a plan, and carried it out. Asami was one step ahead when he got the deed, and the Fei had to react. Though Mikhail was able to complicate things, Asami formed a plan on the spot and outmaneuvered Mikhail. Just because other players have their turn doesn't mean Asami isn't playing the game with a strategy.

I am not saying Asami is some kind of criminal Marty Stu who never fails and cannot be challenged. I just mean that Asami is a good leader who accomplishes his goals, even if there is a cost. Aki's choice of career and personality would have put Aki in the middle of one mess or another even without Asami, but Asami always saves Aki. Asami is good at what he does and wins in the end.

Name one goal Mikhail had that Mikhail achieved.

I am not sure where you get "benevolent" from. I am saying he is competent, and that he is logical and not cruel for the hell of it. When Asami is cruel, it's for a good reason: to achieve a goal. The fact that his loss would make the situation worse for many people does mean Asami is a sparkling shiny criminal with a heart of gold who poops rainbows. It is a utilitarian assessment of the big picture. I am saying that at least in the short term, losing Asami as a leader would hurt many people and that I don't see another character in the manga that would do as good a job as Asami does.

I think Asami would be wussing out if he walked away because Asami seems to enjoy the leadership role more than the material goods that come with it. If by " I got mine" you mean Aki, well I guess. But no one can live entirely for their lover, and giving up all you want and all you have worked for seems like a loss, even if you do it to enjoy more time with your lover. Maybe when Asami is 65 or so and wants to retire, it would make sense. Right now, it just seems like giving up for no reason.

What unnecessary drama have to do with the deed? Why did Mikhail goad Yuri about Aki? What was the point of setting up Yuri to attack Aki (which is exactly what Mikhail did). Where is the benefit to Mikhail in that?

And why did Mikhail goad Asami so much? that wasn't necessary for his plan. There was not benefit in it. Mikhail just likes stirring up shit.

Look at Mikhail's final scene on the boat. He was disappointing the show was over, and that he wouldn't be entertained by watching Fei kill. I'm surprised Mikhail didn't have any popcorn on him. What did Mikhail hope to gain at that point? Mikhail was just being a shit for the hell of it.

"The thing that has my curiosity fired up is when Kuroda alluded to "the higher-ups" ( or "the superiors" in the translation here). It could be that Asami might also be a proxy for someone else more powerful."

I noticed that too. :) Of course, all I have is speculation, but you know I am hoping for a big reveal involving the higher ups and Koruda's connection to Asami *Crosses fingers and chants "half-brother in a powerful clan" in case Sensei hears me*. Then again, the higher ups could be Kuruda's higher ups in the government. I am sure it will be good.

This is all deflection from the real subject. We're talking about Asami, not Mikhail. I certainly never forwarded Mikhail as a successor to Asami, so I have no investment in defending Mikhail. It doesn't matter what Mikhail did/is/wants/thinks. Mikhail could eat a baby and it wouldn't change the fact of who and what Asami is and the mistakes he has made. One character's mistakes do not cancel out another's.

That was merely to respond to the assertion that Mikhail had a reason for his cruel actions. That goes to the point that I think Mikhail is a worse leader than Asami, and therefore would not be a good replacement. That doesn't "cancel out" anything Asami does.

Asami is responsible for Asami's errors (and not other people's actions). Even though he is not perfect, he is still a very good leader who gets results To me, it's not about "good" and "bad" (because everyone is both). It's about what is effective and what works best for the most people most of the time.