for me i think... and this is after looking at the raws and reading some loose translation...

I don't like the violence in this one, but I'm ok with cheating in stories because it's a thing which happens, even in normal(as in, non-abusive) relationships. And honestly, it may even happen more between men(I say this as a man, so to be fair I cannot really speak from the perspective of women). There really is a huge amount of cheating and forgiving, and doing it all over again. That isn't to say that all gay men cheat, or that all men in general cheat, we're just more likely to. Plus, our relationships are often really muddled, because there is a non-comittal culture, I think largely because we didn't even have the option to marry until recently(and obviously in many places it's still not an option). Some men are just wired that way, but I think many more are programmed to think and act a certain way by society and by their specific cultures.

As for the "once a cheater, always a cheater" thing, I think there are simply too many variables at play to say for certain. It really depends on the specific situation. There are types who just cheat. They have roaming eyes and unsincere intentions. That type will probably always cheat, if given the chance. But there are so many different situations which make people cheat. I have had an affair, once, in a long term relationship. I didn't feel loved, but also couldn't bring myself to leave. We had a whole life together, with a house and pets, and shared friends. I gave in to that desperation and found love elsewhere. Would I cheat again? Probably not. I learned a lot from the experience.

thanks so much for sharing your personal experience! also i agree with many things you stated so eloquently here. i actually had regrets on posting this as after the shock of looking over the raws and the heated discussion i re-read the raws and felt this sorrow, things were broken here in so many ways, and in the end they tried to mend the wounds in a way that is completely up to them so i can't really judge. in the end i was just sad, both sides made mistakes and they made personal decisions regarding it so i changed my mind on my original opinion. i actually wanted to post again but now i guess will just leave as this comment that i'm thankful for this story as it gave me more perspective from the comments on how different people view this sort of situation, including the author of this story. i also felt bad for the third party since he wasn't aware of what he was involved in until the damage was done. not saying he's innocent 100% but he seemed regretful when the long haired guy caught them and afterward

"Some men are just wired that way, but I think many more are programmed to think and act a certain way by society and by their specific cultures."
Really agree with this point about all people really

To further expand on what I was saying before, I actually like to see cheating and normal levels of relationship ugliness in BL. This one was particularly rough, but generally speaking I am more offended by the overly idealistic relationships or overly sadistic relationships which are so common in the genre. I'm coming from a different place than most readers as I'm neither a teen, nor a girl, so most just aren't written with me in mind. I like to see realistic relationships, and it's pretty rare.

I think that a lot of the super anti-cheating sentiments in the comments are coming from that place of wanting to only see relationships which aren't connected to reality. They want an escape, and most BL has nothing to do with gay men, and everything to do with fantasy. So, when reality leaks in(in this case, in the form of cheating which causes pain and not just some kinky threesome), some will get really offended. The second issue is just not being able to relate. It's a lot of young women with limited relationship experience, and everything seems a lot more black and white before you experience things first hand.

Forgive my ranting. I'm normally a lurker as there just isn't a place for me in this arena, but I felt like commenting for some reason.

Your comment was quite interesting XD

Speaking specifically about this manga, There was cheating okay, seemingly for a whim, still okay and then he got caught, didn't confess, and almost immediately followed by forgiveness and retribution came in the form of violence. Not okay. If the author really wanted to make this realistic then maybe giving this manga darker overtones would have been better, it still felt pretty fluffy in the end and that's what made the whole thing feel kind of disoriented for me. Neither of them really reflected on what happened or why it happened and it felt brushed under the carpet. Honestly I prefer my escapes to poorly treated sensitive plots, not saying I expect idealistic endings but just something that makes me able to relate to the characters and I couldn't here.

Same guy, here to babble some more(woo!). While I totally get where you're coming from, I actually do relate to this *to some extent*. I think it boils down more to the mannerisms, temptations, etc which are honestly all quite well done and realistic.

Sometimes it makes me happy when I can relate to a series and girls can't. Like, oh, finally something for *me*

...because it's not like they're not using my entire culture for their fantasies while totally leaving me out most of the time...or anything...

*somewhat bitter*

Because yeah, there is manga about gay men, written by men, but honestly 99% of it is just porn, and quite frankly if I want porn, I'll just watch porn. I deserve emotional plots and well developed characters too. （￣へ￣）

Dear Anon, your comments are always welcome, and you're also welcome to sign in!! though you may feel you come from a different place that's fine, and you'd be surprised what you may find! Also I find it to generally be a pretty fun and friendly community, but of course trolls are everywhere. I am twofold of reading BL to escape reality and want to see the idealistic relationships so I can have a mind's escape from the wear and tear of reality, and also I don't have much relationship experience so I can't empathize with this situation. After the shellshock I do appreciate the perspective this story brings, although it haunts me as well - just like Choco Strawberry Vanilla which will taunt me forever. It sticks in that uncomfortable way, where I normally just want an escape, or to have no emotional attachment if I'm going to read this kind of story. Say for CSV, I read that story when it was ongoing and got attached which was bad, at least for this story I know how it ends.

i appreciate your POV and don't feel left out! Feel free to give us your input on stories, it's good to get diversity, and sometimes a reality check, it is a very spazz heavy community, which i am guilty of, but most appreciate another perspective and all varying opinions :) clearly this series and topic has triggered a lot of us

I have to say I think I had an orgasm reading your rant. True story. I don't know if you've seen me spewing out long replies in an effort to analyze the characters and the scenes but NOT justify cheating, which I am very much misunderstood.

Mangas and fiction in general are read for escapism but to me stories are suppose to share one's life and experiences. Fantasy and supernatural genres do not happen IRL but the underlying stories and themes are still based on everyday experiences or special ones that normal people wouldn't encounter, but that's the beauty of story telling. You tell a story that you experienced or someone else did and share it to more people so they would have an insight to that scenario, in the hopes of widening one's intellect or understanding. Stories, though told most of the times in first person, make readers omnipresent. They see both sides of the story, unlike IRL.

I haven't experienced first hand being physically abused nor cheated on, but my parents have so I have an idea how painful it is. I don't know how my brain works but I never saw cheating as one sided, I mean there are multiple conditions for a person to cheat and/or to do it again. The reason for doing so, etc. There are a lot! Even for Arata to accept Nacchan back, there are conditions why they stayed together. They all have reasons without having to condone the act.

I agree to everything you have said. It's nice to see idealistic relationships in BL but when they get real, it's like finding a real gem buried beneath fake ones. You get to learn things and not just read for entertainment.

Also, ever since I learned about sex and love, and pretty much everything about sexuality, not always matching together like how ideally society says so, things have become clear for me.

On brushing under the carpet, I completely agree but I think it was meant to do so, or not, but it's possible. These two have been together since they first learned about love and it's their first time after so many years, feel threatened by that same love, they could have broken up, so to keep moving forward they just tucked everything under the rug. Honestly they didn't learn to mature from their relationship because they didn't escape from each other. They kept being inside their bubble, yes Nacchan cheated, tried other stuff but without the intention of letting Arata go.

Normally, you're suppose to learn from relationships, particularly previous ones, but these two never had that so just resorted to moving forward without properly talking things through.

Lol, I actually had to make an account. I hold you personally responsible for how annoyed the fujo will get at me.

HAHAHA. well welcome US Buddy :) I take full responsibility! I will be your fujo sponge. If it gets out of hand come holler at me. and see you already have someone who shares your perspective! @pennyinheaven

it's more fun when you're signed in you get alerts to comment responses and can battle it out when it gets passionate - alternative perspective is welcome by most of us!!! :)

Thanks! I try not to push my opinions on women, because I know you get enough of that from men, but I think I deserve an opinion on this topic at the very least. Lol

Thank you! It's good that some agree.

I disagree!! Opinions do not depend on gender! Everyone has an opinion on the topic. Just because BL targets women, it does not mean men cannot read them nor cannot have an opinion. More than women's opinion, you have the experience, that is worth than any inputs I have ever read. Most comments are idealistic in nature, pushing what they think and know what is right and they are very adamant about it. Not scrutinizing what the author has presented.

IMO, most well written stories have a lot to do with psychology. Everything the characters decide and do are based on their experiences, which shape how they think and behave, thus each character is different from another. That's why when I see comments like they know it all, I just get pissed. "This is what he should've done", "this is how to do it" blah blah. Nope. It will always be a case-to-case basis. There's no fun in stories if they are always presenting idealistic scenarios, the more flawed the characters are, the more real the story is, the better. These authors don't just write, they do their respective research on how people deal with similar scenarios they want to write about.

I agree with Kiyotake. The battle could often times get intense. But it's fun when you find people who can think objectively and are open-minded. So I encourage you to just keep pushing your opinions, they are all welcome.

I do feel I am owed an opinion on this topic, becauce honestly I find the disregard of actual gay men really offensive. Like, if you're going to fantasize about us, please at least consider real life. ╮(￣▽￣)╭

And yes, the best stories are written from personal experience. Because BL is mostly written by women, there is often a disconnect, but sometimes that disconnect is too large. As for the fans, there are things which annoy me, and things which don't. I honestly don't mind when people want idealistic stories. They aren't usually for me, but I get it. I think it's fine. What I don't think is fine if the whole obsession with "uke" and "seme". I've even seen people comment that they've dropped amazingly well written stories because they didn't like who tops or bottoms! That's so shocking to me. That isn't real life. just the fact that you can look at a first chapter and know is a problem for me. That isn't real life. Yes, many people DO have preferences, but there are plenty of couples who don't, or who don't do anal at all.(I don't know what the fujo army would do if there were a story like this, with full on sex scenes where NO ONE wants anal, and no one forces the issue!).

I clapped on reflex with "please at least consider real life". LOL, it's so true! I couldn't agree more. I know this is fiction and a lot of readers use that excuse but authors still base their stories from real life and work their way around that, so there must be a compromise between fiction and reality when looking or analyzing stories, that goes to pretty much any genre. The ratio of fiction and reality adjusts depending on how the author sets it.

I'd say there is culture difference not just for readers but the authors as well. I can see you are from the US, so there could be a great difference on the culture, not just society on homosexuality in general but even within the gay community. Like the concept of exclusivity and sexual roles. But hey, what do I know?! My knowledge is only based on porn, connecting dots from what I generally know about Japanese and American culture and my friend's Mexican gay friend.

Most readers don't know how it is in real life. Reading BL pretty much defined what they think they know inside gay culture, then add their assumptions and parallels to heterosexual relationships. I even have my own preferences but I am thrilled when those preferences/tropes are challenged, like seme cross-dressers or cute effeminate semes. I guess it's also about being open to something new, of course, not everyone is like that.

On my friend's gay friend, up until I knew about him, I didn't know that bottoms are supposed to do nipple play, semes do everything for ukes in BL and that stuck on me; and that preference on ridiculously big dicks are just in porn. There are gays that are scared of them and prefer non-penetrative sex than getting hurt. #KnowledgeEnriched

Lol, yes. There is SO MUCH variation. Why do we only see one "type" in 90% of yaoi!? It's so boring. Don't people get sick of seeing the same thing so frequently? The same stories, the same roles, over and over and over. Yawn.

As for it being a cultural difference, it's totally not. There are differences, especially because they're just behind us as far as rights and social acceptance goes, but that isn't one of them. That's just what happens when women write men in to a heterosexual relationship dynamic. Someone HAS to be the woman, because that is what their personal experience is, and that is all they know how to write, and that is all the readers want because that is all *they* can relate to.