lol! so true. her reaction was so normal, i don't get why people are hating on her. where's the logic in that even? she was the one who was deceived, ofc she would be angry. she did say that "marriage" was something that uncle wouldnt be able to do, but seriously? that was the author's subtle dig at S.Korea's current system. hello? wonmin was undeniably the better person. she didn't spread the word that suho (the uncle) was gay. she could have, but she never did. she had a lot of pride, that was for sure. but, if she was a bitch, she wouldn't have waited until her coffee's gone before (pretending to) splashing it at suho.
also, idk, but have you guys noticed (we're already at ch 18) that lee manse doesn't really write a character whom you will hate (as far as i've read)? which makes this webtoon a treasure find, bec it is hella funny, but she inserted scenes that practically yells "hey, y'all shouldn't ignore that this is tagged as drama".
That's exactly it, the author was making a jab at how in korea you cant get married if youre gay and how unjust that is, yet people seem to miss this and automatically start hating on her because they didnt properly understand -_-
I don't hate her. Especially after she gives her wedding invitation, I actually like her. It definitely would take a lot of time and effort to accept his breakup reason, and that invitation is like a sign from her to tell him that she has forgiven him and move on to her life. Sadly the guy feeling envious instead lol.
I'd like to see her again some time
That's beyond anything acceptable to say. I understand she got hurt, but saying "oh, that thing you've been struggling with and will always struggle with is gonna hurt you so let me rub that in your face". Her feelings can always be overcome. Heartbreak isn't forever. But him not being able to get married in a society that doesn't accept his sexuality will not change in our lifetime. She could've hurt him in a way that doesn't call for hurting him through his sexuality. After all, he would've never done this if he knew it would be considered okay. Plus, cowardly? Do you know he probably would've been brutally bullied and truly suffer more than just some heartbreak? In the meet the first time she acted pretty decent for a girl who hates him. But that marriage shit was way too far over the line. It's like inviting a recently paralyzed person to your track meet so they can see you run which is something they can't do. Her taking a jab at his sexuality was something that goes beyond just him. The only reason she knew precisely how to hurt his feelings is by saying that. And her not doing anything worse doesn't excuse the things she does. If a person beats a child, you don't go "well they could've murdered them if they wanted some they aren't that bad".
I can see why she would want to hurt him and such, but that doesn't mean she can't take it too far. And she wasn't simply stating facts, don't try to simplify it. No one goes to a gay they dislike and says "you know gays can't get married here so I want you to go to my wedding since you'll never get to get married here :D". It was used as a weapon.
Thank you for stating everything I wanted to say.
As a gay male, the comments here have been making me nauseous. I've experienced enough horrible psychological shit here in America regarding my sexuality, and it's so much worse in Korea. I've also performed in the Laramie Project, - interviews about Matthew Shepherd who was beaten to death because he was gay.
How dare people say that him using her to protect himself is worse than the discrimination he would receive being open about his sexuality. Some fujoshi's need a serious reality check.
That being said, I still think he should have just come out from the beginning and he would've had an easier time psychologically, but I understand why he did what he did.
Please reread exactly as it is written. There was absolutely NO discrimination. I also dont see any readon why this has anything to do with fujoshis.
The author, through his ex fiancee, is making a statement on how it is extremely unjust that they do not allow gay marriage in their country. Now even the character herself shows absolutely no discrimination against gays and is simply stating a fact saying that ''it is something that he cannot do''; although rubbing that in his face is indeed extremly rude, it is quite understandable to she is at least a bit angry.
Yes, it was extremely rude of her, however as Ive stated previous times she was NOT taking a jab at his sexuality; she was simply stating a fact (which the author uses to show how unjust it is that gays cant marry). I'd would also like to point out that your example isnt quite exact as he has always known that he would not be able to marry because he knew from the begining that he was gay. Even then, a paralyzed person who is ordered to watch a race would recover faster than a broken heart (in this case it was marriage level serious relationship) because it is something theyve already known for a long time.
For your next example, the extent to what she has done is not even close to that and I dont really understand what you meant by it.
>"you know gays can't get married here so I want you to go to my wedding since you'll never get to get married here :D"
This is LEGiT ALL tht she has done & said. She is being a complete asshole for one sentence.
Say I'm trying to put myself in the shoes of the uncle. I would get angry and think how she's being super rude to me right now. Then before and maybe a few days after the marriage id feel upset, jealous and hurt that I would never be able to do tht in my own country. However, I would get over it, just as how time heals a broken heart.
We see that even the uncle himself is looking just fine and it has not caused him much harm (since i believe tht was backstory just now that happened earlier, correct me if Im wrong). We see it took him just one drunken session of complaining and crying to flush everything, all his emotions and frustrations out of his system and he was back to normal.
Okay I reread your last sentence and misinterpreted.
Nobody said that what she had gone through ->being used as a shield & decieved was worse than
what he went through ->the utter outcast and social unacceptance as someone who is gay.
Now this is even acknowledged by the author themself during the meet between the two, where the ex admits that he had gone through many more struggles and was suffering more than she had.
What I was saying was that:
the ex being deceived for such a long time and during an incredibly intimite relation whereas both had already agreed to marriage was worse than what some people where hating on the ex because of
her being an asshole for a sentence when she was inviting him to her wedding
>Heartbreak isn't forever.
really? i've seen a lot of people who stayed heartbroken their entire life. i held the hands of some of them as they lay on ER beds, crying over their heartbreaks before they passed on. that's already a "forever" for them.
>But him not being able to get married in a society that doesn't accept his sexuality will not change in our lifetime.
how sure are you? in the 1990s, gay marriage was an absolute taboo, but recently, you've got a lot of states legalising gay marriage. pretty sure that's within our lifetime. well, provided that they're non asian countries, but for the sake of argument...*shrug*
just to be clear, i don't have anything against gay people. i'm a very active supporter of them, and i have many friends who are part of the LGBT community. what happened in the chapter isn't about discrimination against gay people. what me and the OP were talking about, was being a decent human being. suho (the uncle) was clearly at fault, but he manned up, though it took him years, and he apologised. again, people seem to miss the point that IT WAS THE AUTHOR taking a subtle dig at S.Korea's current system by using wonmin's character. i can't believe people are missing that part out. why else would the author wrote that part where the uncle was drunk and yelling out about "this country"?
>Plus, cowardly? Do you know he probably would've been brutally bullied and truly suffer more than just some heartbreak?
so, it's okay to use people and play with their feelings for your own sake? you know, i don't have the right to say who would suffer the most in their situation because both of them were at fault. no one's above or beneath the other in this case, so don't just THINK of the side of one person. they are both at fault. period. we were simply negating people who are one-sidedly attacking wonmin. (suho - for playing with wonmin's feeling, and then wonmin - for being insensitive towards suho.) also, in connection to what i said about being friends to many LGBT people above, i know a lot of them who would rather be brutally bullied and suffer more than just heartbreaks as long as they don't use and deceive other people. everything in this world has two or more sides. just because you could get hurt, doesn't give you the right to use others as your shield. and just because you got hurt, doesn't give you the right to hurt others as well.
>It's like inviting a recently paralyzed person to your track meet so they can see you run which is something they can't do.
uh, i don't get your point with this analogy? you're simply generalising. a lot of paralyzed people go to track meet to watch runners without others forcing them to go. and they go watch these events because they want to. well, if you put it this way, then let me also tell you that suho apologising to wonmin is like: "it's like trampling over a person's heart and then casually picking up the pieces, handing them over to the person then, saying a casual sorry afterwards."
i wish people would stop seeing this as simply an LGBT vs a heartbreak thing, because you're just further labeling suho. i wish readers would see wonmin and suho as "human beings" not simply as a gay male and a heartbroken woman. discrimination vs emotional pain isn't the issue here. none of these two weigh more than the other. seriously.
How many cases have people died from a broken heart?
And you know, it's been hundreds of years, black people in america have the right to vote and such yet they're still getting shot up and mistreated? It doesn't happen so quickly. And even then, people can still be against it and harm them. It isn't a carefree thing. And this is compared to America that countries look at and so in the Asian country they live in; seeing the day he can happily marry in his home country is a long ways away.
Yes, that's good of them, but I never said he was right for it. I just don't see it as cowardly. I'm not going to call someone a coward for trying to dodge a bullet. I see that people get shot and murdered over homosexuality. People are seriously in danger. And even if they get past physical harm, imagine those who would cause psychological harm? And lead to suicide? I'm not saying he is right, but I don't blame him at all. He was young, (proven that the brain doesn't fully mature until the age of 25 and the area concerning judgment is the last to develop. It is used as something in court when teenagers do crimes.) and being gay is a life threatening and huge realization.
And the whole analogy is talking about using something that someone can't do as a weapon. It isn't simply stating facts. She was trying to be an asshole and she accomplished it. Very well.
And I do see them as human being. Him being gay and dealing with different challenges than her is apart of that. Of course it's not just about that. His problem is more serious due to the harm that can come from it, but just because someone can/could have it worse than another person, doesn't mean their feelings are invalid. He fucked up. She took something too far for my taste and that's okay. They're both humans with flaws. Very real characters.
>And you know, it's been hundreds of years, black people in america have the right to vote and such yet they're still getting shot up and mistreated? It doesn't happen so quickly. And even then, people can still be against it and harm them. It isn't a carefree thing. And this is compared to America that countries look at and so in the Asian country they live in; seeing the day he can happily marry in his home country is a long ways away.
Okay if you bring that up then literally everything has its exceptions.... And I believe that discrimination will only continue to diminish as more and more of the population become educated, just as how as how equal rights for gender is a huge thing nowadays and was non existent 'hundreds of years back'.
>I'm not going to call someone a coward for trying to dodge a bullet
Again I am not very in agreeance with you here because he is dodging those bullets by using other human beings.
>I see that people get shot and murdered over homosexuality. People are seriously in danger.
Yes this is happening and it is very well a large issue that has yet to be fully addressed however I am confused as to what this has to do with the topic.
>imagine those who would cause psychological harm? And lead to suicide?
And can this also not be the case for a broken heart? I quickly searched up the number of suicides due to love and the first link tells me that the actually the #1 and #2 reason for suicide are both related to love:
http://news.abs-cbn.com/lifestyle/09/26/11/love-number-one-reason-suicide-expert
>She was trying to be an asshole and she accomplished it. Very well.
and this leads me to the whole point that I have been trying to get across in the first place; that she was only being an asshole thats it, period.
It also seems you have not addressed my other points and have either disagreed with them without explaination or ignored them and you still believe that she has done something wrong.
Sorry, your comment has been bothering me for a bit so I will confront you about it honestly.
In the end you have called out my comments (or others), due to a misunderstanding on your part, as 'nauseous'. You have also assumed that everyone is female and implied that everyone's opinion is wrong (despite every single person commenting, regardless wht side they are arguing for, having pretty reasonable and explained support to their opinion).
>How many cases have people died from a broken heart?
you are clearly underestimating the psychological and physical effects of having your heart broken. also, it is not a simple case of a broken heart in wonmin's case.
>He was young, (proven that the brain doesn't fully mature until the age of 25 and the area concerning judgment is the last to develop. It is used as something in court when teenagers do crimes.) and being gay is a life threatening and huge realization.
no, you just didn't use this. if you use being "young" as a supporting fact for what suho did, then i can as well use the supporting fact that wonmin is "just a woman" and women tend to say things that they don't mean because they are scientifically proven to be emotional. is that what you want?
>And the whole analogy is talking about using something that someone can't do as a weapon. It isn't simply stating facts. She was trying to be an asshole and she accomplished it. Very well.
oh, and did you just read past what i've written that it was the author who used wonmin as a medium to convey what she thinks about south korea's present system? and therein lies the message already. the author wrote that part not to insult suho, but as a message for the readers about a system that needs to be changed. so no. wonmin isn't being a bitch or an asshole when she said that. and hell no, she didn't use that as weapon.
>People are seriously in danger. And even if they get past physical harm, imagine those who would cause psychological harm?
take a minute, and apply that to wonmin as well. let's factor in age, since you used it for suho. (and let's add that she's also a woman while we're at it- you know, rash, irrational, emotional, etc) at that age, let's say that the brain isn't fully developed yet... a time when people make stupid decisions... let's say that wonmin got depressed, her depression progressed and lead to suicide... it wasn't shown in the webtoon, but honestly. did you think she suffered less than uncle did? look at her reaction and you'll know that she faced her own hell as well. doesn't that put her in the same danger? this could've happened to uncle, too, but he ran away and you know what? i don't question that he had a hard time, too... i just can't believe that you're ONLY blaming wonmin for what transpired between them in the cafe and for the words she told him.
>His problem is more serious due to the harm that can come from it, but just because someone can/could have it worse than another person, doesn't mean their feelings are invalid.
don't you think this entirely contradicted the way you "labeled" wonmin as an "asshole"? because... just because his life he could be the one in "more danger", doesn't mean that wonmin's feeling of anger are invalid (thus, she was able to say those words).
>your words. "she took it too far for my taste"
and i'm telling you again that no. you're understanding the entire thing in the wrong manner. "wonmin" didn't say that to hurt suho. neither did the author. lee manse only included that in the scene as a way to convey her stance on gay marriage in S korea.
I never said everything was wonmin's fault. I simply thought the comment was too far. I cannot see it as her doing something friendly. Even if she was a "medium", it is still her. And I never said she wanted to insult him. I'm saying she wanted to get back at him. That comment could only be said because he is gay. Yes, the bigger picture is the fact that author is addressing the problem, but wonmin said it only to get back at him so she could forgive him. That was her case. Wonmin herself didn't say it to address the problems with Suho. "I know gays can't get married in this country and that's a problem". That's what she's saying after expressing her dislike for him? That's very hard to believe.
And I cannot take heartbreak and homosexuality on the same level. I don't see people being mad murdered for it. And this is not to say heartbreak doesn't do fucked shit, but i cannot put it on it's level. It's a sad thing that no one should suffer, but
He's an asshole for what he did. She's an asshole for what she said. People are entitled to feelings and all, but that doesn't mean you escape criticism nor consequences. So I don't blame her either. Even if I disagree. It's simply my opinion that she took it too far. And we just see things differently.
Oh boy. This is precisely why I tend to stay out of the comments section (piranha pit) of anything - not worth the headache lol
wow you consider this to be a vicious argument? As far as I have read actually nothing was targeting people at all to make it like that, everything has been pretty civilized and level headed debate where each side presented their support and (sometimes not) rebuttal.
Funnily enough though, your comment could probably be considered the most damaging as youre targeting the commenter themselves. Now after I have called you out on those actions you have replyed with this excuse (which I do not think is correct) leaving all the points I have laid out in front of you remaining unaddressed, to which I can only assume that you have chosen to ignore them.
If you enter a debate using that sort of language towards the other side, it would only be expected that you would at minimum try to defend yourself with facts instead of ''oh you commenters are vicious fujoshi whom make me sick and give me a headache because I havent time to properly read all that you have said. Goodbye that is all''
It would seem that my opinion upon this matter has remained exactly the same as before as nobody has actually addressed all the major points I have taken the time to make on multiple occasions and thus, I state just as confidently as before:
Wonmin did nothing wrong.
It has been a blast while it lasted lady and gents however if after all of that you still think she is a bitch who discrimates against gays and made the uncle go through life trauma because she told him to go to her wedding, ...then I am afraid that I have nothing left to say.
I hope everyone, regardless of orientation: gay, asexual, straight, etc... experiences a bright and happy future to come. Have a good day:)
I’m sorry. Maybe not vicious, but frustrating (= headache). My comments are not only concerning this thread, but others as well. I’ve become quite frustrated with (typically) straight female readers who enjoy reading about gay romance, yet seem to be completely oblivious to the hardships gay people actually go through. I’ve been seeing a lot of insensitive/ignorant comments lately, so I’m sensitive. The character’s comment in the manhwa angered me on a personal level, regardless of what the author’s intent was. I don’t hate the character for it, but I feel there are absolutely no grounds to defend what she said.
Between this thread and another one you commented on, it seemed like you (and others) felt that her heartbreak was worse than his mental struggle and potential harm he could face. Considering what I just mentioned before, it frustrated me. If you don’t feel that way, then I’m sorry. That’s just the way it came off.
To add to the conversation, I’d like to point out that she did mention that she suspected he was gay from the beginning, so it’s also on her for committing to marriage despite those suspicions.
I see, that is very understandable as I too have come across these sorts of people online and it is pretty annoying.
Now I am going to sound like a parrot again and reiterate something I have already been trying to say multiple times
'' What I was saying was that
the ex being deceived for such a long time and during an incredibly intimite relation whereas both had already agreed to marriage,
was worse than what some people were hating on the ex because of:
her being an asshole for a sentence for inviting him to her wedding ''
Now I will stand by this and also add that her asking him to his wedding would cause him no physical harm. Mentally, it was shown that the uncle was also able to get over it quite quickly as it took him one night of drunken complaining to release all his frustrations.
(side note as someone raised under harsh circumstances that your mental fortitude ends up quite high. Especially if you are a part of a minority like that theres no way you would have been able to live up to that point if every single mean comment makes you sad for months. Pretty much what Im trying to say is that it's certain the uncle has faced much uneducated prejudice so her telling him to go to her marriage wont affect him much, just as how it was shown in the manga)
You do bring up an interesting point when she admits that deep down she vaguely suspected him. and yes that does make her partially responsable however again, (because the author is such a good wrtter who builds characters that feel real) one can understand where she's coming from. Pretty much she was subconsiously, knowingly lying to herself because she wouldnt have been able to cope with the situation. Afterall, love is indeed a very powerful emotion, she would rather choose to believe he is telling the truth instead of confront him about it and which could mean losing him.
In the end I still think that neither character should be put to fault as the circumstances were pretty complicated and their decisions aren't really clear cut ''bad'' or ''good''.
wow people seem super forgiving of what the uncle has done. In fact I don't even think some people think he's done anything wrong at all. Keep in mind that this guy went around dating girls and playing with their feelings for his own benefit to dispel the rumors that he was gay. Pretty cowardly and morally wrong if you ask me although I do see why he'd do something like tht.
Then he takes it further than just simply dating and we're talkin about MARRIAGE. Just think about her point of view for a sec.
How do you think she'd feel if theyre both in a very deep relationship and probably in love (at least she thinks), have had talks about marriage and their future together and then *BAM* ''sorry Im gay and all this time Ive been using you to make people believe Im straight as society looks down on anyone who is not the norm. Oh and btw my bestie who Ive introduced you to is who Im in love with.''
Understandably she would feel pretty betrayed and upset. I really think she acted pretty reasonably in that meet where they talked and was not be ''bitchy'' at all. Then she goes and says she wants him to come to her marriage because it is something he cannot do in their country. Okay that was rude af but honestly she wasnt discriminating gays, she was simply stating a fact and all she did was say be really rude with tht one sentence v.s him leading her on for years. So in conclusion yall are going way over the top hating on her when she didnt really do anything wrong.
End rant