Hilarious misdirection. I thought for certain that this manga was going to go down the extremely, very serious route of "Oh, noes! Mr. Earthmother Construction Worker vs. Mr. Elite, we haven't got enufs in commons for this relationship to last" but it turns out they did have everything essential in common. ROFL.
A wild-assed corporate romp about an interdepartmental secret society of sexual harassment avengers. Ride 'em cowboys!
Interesting story, but has anyone else noticed the continuity problem between volumes? I wonder if it was because there was too much of a time gap between publication.
Ummm ... why the disclaimer on page 7?
Seriously!
*dies laughing*
I noticed that. I guess there's a legit fear some people will think stories about supernatural were-cats who fuck like bunnies are based on their personal lives.
Who are these people and what kind of drugs are they on?
I was so scared for Natsuo, but nobody that sweet could stay unloved.
i know right ^_^
I think there is something a little more subtle in Kurose's speech than it sounds like.
"I came to love Shirotani-san ... It's because Shirotani-san has mysophobia."
Shirotani clearly interprets that to me that it's his mental illness that attracts Kurose, and in that case, how would it serve Kurose's agenda to cure it, but Kurose is aware that Shirotani thinks he's dirty because of some past trauma involving his father. Maybe the attraction is about getting Shirotani to accept the fact that he has already "been defiled" or "warped" (in the language and self-talk of a mysophobe) , and that he can't change the fact that this happened to him, but meanwhile, the world hasn't ended, he hasn't died and he is loved and desired ... in spite of being "dirty" and "warped". Acceptance is the first part of working through a condition like this.
"I can't help but get excited by you getting warped and you accept no one else but me."
What Shirotani thinks is warped — ie.., sex — isn't, but if he persists in thinking it is, Kurose will still love him all the way through it. That's the biggest love confession a person can give: that they are willing to love another, warts and all.
"The feeling of not wanting to hurt Shirotani-san and the feeling of defiling you so badly are both existing inside of me."
Well Kurose doesn't see Shirotani as defiled at all. He is, after all, Kurose's ideal. He loves him and doesn't want to hurt him, but also desires him — the fulfillment of which Shirotani sees as defilement. It isn't. All Kurose is saying is that he wants to break through that blockage that Shirotani has which prevents him from enjoying human touch, specifically Kurose's touch.
We can see it is Kurose's action. If he didn't care, he would've used Shirotani to get off in spite of Shirotani's misery. Instead, all he has done is help Shirotani to get off.
As a Japanese proofreader with a close Japanese friend that reads the volumes along with me, Kurose's personality in the translation is totally different. To be honest, the changes between "Shirotani-san" and "Anata/Anta" are HUGE. It was never clarified by the translator that, in the Japanese language, referring to someone by second person pronoun (any form of "you" in Japanese. ex: anta, anata, omae, aitsu, etc.) is incredibly rude.
In written text, the use of anata and anta isn't as bad as it would be if said in real life, but it still have a very casual, or sometimes downright inappropriate or demoralizing connotation. In this case, Anta is the more casual, boyish, but also the ruder of the two which Kurose could have used. It technically isn't a word, but rather a slur of anata.
So when Kurose is switching between Shirotani-san and Anta, he's really been echoing all along that ideas that in this chapter he just recently explained to Shirotani: he is caught perpetually between wanting to covet and keep him safe (calling him Shirotani-san) and defile him irreparably (calling him Anta). It's quite interesting, and if we could speak Japanese here in the comment region, we might have been able to pick up Kurose's personality quirk beforehand due to his Japanese in previous chapters. This series is VERY big on playing with the language usage, trust me.
Also, hi there! I see you around quite frequently and I've been meaning to give you a shout out~ <3
WOW.. Thot & Yuuki, you two amaze me. ヾ(☆▽☆)
I got into a muddle since it turned out Shirotani's afraid he'll dirt other.
And seems like I can't go on till Sensei clear that part. Poor me! (+_+;)
Is Japanese your native language or is English? Your English grammar, vocabulary and sentence structure denote either a native speaker with a decent education or a non-native speaker with a superior grasp on the language. In either case I was impressed by your skill in communicating such an intricate and nuanced idea so clearly and eloquently. I am interested in learning to speak and read Japanese - though I will admit to being a bit intimidated by the reading aspect. I am such a "grammar Nazi" in my own language and would hate to butcher one as pretty as Japanese.
Goodness. Now I'm quite embarrassed to have written that typo-latent blurb. OTL. Thank you for your kind words; as it happens, I am a native English speaker, though I have been raised with Japanese, Chinese, and French buzzing around since my early years. Long ago, I was an intended creative writing major. But currently, I am in Japanese Studies and Illustration, though I plan to transition into study of the language itself (as its history is tiring me, especially with the way academia tells stories of the East, even today, through a veil of fetishization). I am a teacher's assistant at my college for the Japanese language. In my experience, reading quickly becomes less intimidating than speech, though learning of kana and kanji initially takes quite the commitment. If ever you find yourself with the free time or the dedication to learn, do shoot me a mail and I'd be happy to help in any way I can.
Japanese is a very nuanced language, but more than that, like with any language, it is the bridge of cultural contextualization itself. I feel as though in that way, we do have an obligation to master our given language as much as possible (as it is the primary bridge of our thoughts); then and only then I believe the transition into learning another language will be smooth (unless one is bilingual from a young age). Certainly, having a command over English will help you find the proper phrasing, moving forward, with which to rationalize difficult grammatical structures of another language. I wish you luck.
Aww, thanks so much.
And yes, it seems like Shirotani has quite the M streak in him, to the point where it really isn't healthy and he's started to materialize actual lasting ideologies (or rather, complexes). It is my opinion that he was always looking for a reason to dislike himself, especially because it was pointed out recently to me that, in the flash back with his father and the female student, young Shirotani's pants were pulled down....On the slight chance that he was perhaps masterbating to his father and the girl, I think it becomes pretty clear that his desire to "not want to dirty others" was actually caused by his own masochistic disposition, even at a young age, which caused him to do socially inappropriate things in lieu of being punished (or, In the case of children, out of a desire to be noticed in some way). Well, whatever happens, it will surely be an interesting read moving forward. The amount of sexual content, to be honest, I wasn’t expecting. But I’m glad the series seems to be taking itself seriously in spite of it.
Hi, Yuki. Nice to 'meet' you. It's great to have some cultural and linguistic background added to the discussion.
I was aware that using the second person pronoun was considered unacceptably familiar in the context of Japanese acquaintances. I wasn't aware of where the boundary lies between when it is okay to be that casual and when it isn't, ie., Shirotani and Kurose have definitely crossed that line from casual to deeply personal awhile back ... although the question up for debate right now is whether Kurose is being very vulnerable, or a jerk who thinks Shirotani's emotional pain is funny/provocative.
So, from what I understand (and this is me reflecting back those words to you in order to ensure I understand correctly), "Anata/Anta" is NEVER appropriate in adult relationships, particularly in relationships where the other person is cherished, but even more particularly during serious conversations about personal boundaries and the nature of that relationship?
Because I still can see Kurose saying these things in the spirit and context of "Hey, somewhere in your past, you decided that you were defilement to others, Shirotani, and I love you even though you see yourself that way. In fact, I love you and cherish you BECAUSE you see yourself that way, since I desire you sexually and that sort of defilement is A-Okay with me."
I'm speculating that Takurai Rihito is pointing to that there is an okay sort of defilement (sex) and a sort of defilement which is not okay (resting one's hands on the seats of public toilets.) Shirotani confuses the two, but Kurose doesn't.
If this were the case, then the subtlety I refer to is psychological interpretation, of which language definitely plays a part, but the role of language usage can also confuse both readers and Shirotani, who seems determined to read those words in the most damning way possible (which isn't unexpected given how he reacted to the cupboard scene.)
Thank you, also, for engaging in a discussion about this point with me. It's great to get some different perspective on the story.
*squishes you*
I hope the mangaka makes that point clear as well, but I think she rather enjoys torturing her readers.
" ... And yes, it seems like Shirotani has quite the M streak in him, to the point where it really isn't healthy and he's started to materialize actual lasting ideologies (or rather, complexes). It is my opinion that he was always looking for a reason to dislike himself ..."
Exactly! He can't see himself except through these grimy, pathogen-ridden filters. He doesn't have clarity at all.
I'm actually about to teach a beginning Japanese class. I will ask my students what they think about when it is culturally acceptable to use pronouns in Japanese, and then I'll let you know of their reaction after class, along with my own lengthy reply. Do look forward to it today, and once again yoroshiku onegaishimasu~(￣∇￣")
This would be the bullet-ed list of second person pronoun notes that I derived from a conversation with my Native friend this evening:
In real life, 80% of the time "anta" would be considered inappropriate in a mature relationship.
Instances where it would be appropriate:
Between really close guy friends, kind of like how young adults typically curse at each other in a playful way
A male saying it to a female, when they're romantically involved...Like in advance stages, border-lining marriage.
A female saying it to a male/female when she's angry (A male when he's angry will likely use omae rather than anta, so there is a scale of usage rarity that correlates to the overall level of "rudeness" when looking at usages between genders)
In anime and manga culture, pronouns are used mainly to add extra "spice" to characterization, of a thematic subtly unique to the Japanese language. Usage examples of Anta in manga culture:
The person is young or immature
The person is hot tempered
The person does not respect their elders
The person is jock-y
Also, concerning Anata vs Anta, anta sounds (from a native perspective, and my own perspective as a learner) very half-assed, as if the person couldn't even put in the effort to pronounce the full vowel-consonant pair. It really does sound like that someone is looking down on you, particularly because their choice was to use anta, as a way of making themselves appear less uptight, but at the expense of being informal to you.
It's very memorable in any entertainment platform to hear a character regarding others with a pronoun, rather than with usual pleasantries. In Kurose's case, his base personality in this story is not one like those described above (ie: he isn't jock-y or particularly hot tempered). So the use of Anta really, like I described before, is made to accentuate the difference between Kurose's desires concerning Shirotani's physical and mental well-being. Between the two of them, as a pair of semi-formal, not vulgarity-prone pair, who first and foremost were a doctor and patient, it is entirely contextually wrong to be using Anta. But as I described above, I hope you can derived at least slightly the intricacies of pronoun usage in Japanese. It is very contextual.
Thanks for the detailed explanation. I knew that the pronoun usage in Japanese was fraught, but I had no idea as to the extent.
It will be interesting to see where this story goes.
The order of the chapters keeps getting messed around with and rearranged, and someone in the comments suggested that these stories don't even belong with each other, which makes sense because they aren't by the same mangaka. That part's a drag, because you can't guarantee that a story you liked will be here from one week to another.
Fubin BL is a collection of yaoi/shounen ai mangas by various different mangakas. And yes, "The First Thing I Do in the Morning Is" is part of it.
My beef isn't about the inclusion or exclusion of stories. If the only connecting theme is yaoi or shounen ai, that's perfectly fine with me. It's that the order of the chapters keeps getting messed around, which makes it impossible to correlate comments to the actual corresponding story.
For goodness sake, if you look under the scroll-down bar, there are two Chapter Threes. (At least there were at the time of this comment. Tomorrow, they will probably be rearranged into another baffling order of contents, with stories that were at the front of the list and which have been posted for weeks, now marked "new" and at the end.)
It comes across like the person posting this is just dicking around.
That's it? "Curtains drawn"? This story fizzled more than sizzled.
"Who's up for a Christmas surprise?"
I am, but do I have to wait that long?
I'll have my Christmas in April, please.
Agreed! ε=ε=(ノ≧∇≦)ノ
There is most definitely a strongly enunciated "F" sound en Français. Where does Dear Ms. Soie think the actual name of France comes from? Hint: French people do not pronounce it "Rance" or "Hrance". Effs are not confused with Aitches, and they are not dropped altogether. Fumiya might have a little more Ooooph to his U, which might sound embarassingly sentimental to his ear, but there would be a distinct eff in front of it.
Aside from that, it's a very cute story so far.
I think it's as it said that the Romanized Fu sound is between a F and an H. Kind of like R/L is blurred together in Japanese with a sound in between both the English R and the L.
But it seems in French the H is silent? So Fu/Hu sound is dropped down to a U sound?
That is what is being said, except it's ridiculous. It just isn't so. The only way Fumiya's name would be mispronounced to 'Umiya by a French person is if his name was actually Humiya, not Fumiya (or the French person had a weird speech impediment.) The "F" sound is very clear and distinct in French. No 'Umiyas. No way, no how.
What if the way that Fumiya was pronouncing it was closer to a H sound than a F sound? Like a dialect or something?
Could that then cause the French speakers around him to pronounce it as Umiya?
Hi there. I'm actually the Japanese to English Proofreader for this, though in the credits I go by BonBon. This, as well as a number of cultural things in the series were up for bit of discussion, particularly because a lot of us working on this series knew either French or Japanese, but not both.
I have studied both, so explaining this requires a bit of knowledge for the consonant-vowel development of both languages. An abridged version follows as such:
The development of the F sound in Japanese is actually a bastardized version of the H. Formally, Japanese people have no F set of hiragana, it is ONLY "fu" which has developed from the hard "H" into a softer, more segued liaison between an F and an H. This and the sound for "tsu" and "hi" tend to be the hardest sounds for any foreigner to make, not including the "R" series of Hiragana (Ra, re, ri, ro, ru, ryu, ryo,etc.).
As you already know, because I am assuming you've knowledge of French, with the "H" sound, such as in Hiroshima or another word that begins with the consonant, the H becomes totally omitted (making the word "iroshima," meaning color island...a completely different word).
The "Fu" sound in Japanese follows the same principles as the H series in Hiragana, and requires much force from the diaphragm - not as much as regular hard, western "H" sounds, but arguably, because the sound of "Fu" in Japanese is a light, hollow push of air, wherein both F and H can be heard, it requires even more effort from the mind and the vocal chords to produce. In basic terms, it means that no one that is foreign can, on the sly, simply make the "Fu" sound upon hearing it for the first few times.
In that way, most Romance language speakers and Germanic Language speakers cannot adequately say Fumiya correctly. French people would more likely say "Umiya" because the first sound is too foreign - although, if they saw its romanized form (Without hearing Fumiya pronounce his own name with the proper "Fu" hiragana sound), they might do the same thing that most readers here are doing, which is naturally harden the "Fu" into the "Ffff" sound that doesn't exist in Japanese, but which is a common pronunciation of F in English and French alike (In French, however, the "U" vowel in Fumiya would be quite a bit closer compared to the English "U" pronunciation..."Foomiya" - very unappealing. So in that way, Romance languages have a one up as far as pronunciation accuracy, especially when it comes to vowels.)
Indeed, my last name is Hu. In Japanese, the closest equivalent is "Fu -," which, when said by a native, sounds very close to "who," the proper pronunciation of my Chinese-origin surname.
Lastly, concerning the use of "H" and the confusion with how it correlates to Fumiya - again, since "fu" stems from the H series of Hiragana, Japanese people tend to treat the F and H roman consonants exactly the same, even though to most Westerners they are not pronounced the same (and therefore, an H or the sound of an H is not associated at all with Fumiya's name). The original raws for the chapter had a Roman letter "H," clear as day amongst the Japanese characters. I voted to change it from "H" sound to "fu" sound, but it was shot down by our head editor. I feel as though "fu" might have been more acceptable for most of our French speakers here, as "Fu" and the sound of "H" are not immediately associated with one another, unless you have a background in Japanese. This was a passage that stumped only those without a Japanese background in our scanlation group, as a matter of fact.
I hope the explanation helps! It got quite lengthy~ I apologize.
~Bonbon
To reiterate something in my massive blob of explanation above, I agree with you, but only if they saw Fumiya's name written before they heard him pronounce it. F IS a very distinctive sound in French, but if they didn't see his name romanized on a roster, they would have assumed he was saying some sort of mix of H and F, leaning more to the H than anything..... If you have ever sampled playing a woodwind instrument, the kind of air control you need to make the "Fu" sound properly is comparable to that sort of mouth configuration. In that way, when they heard it, either they heard it as a H and simply omitted the sound (because we're assuming French stereotypes here), or they heard some strange thing that they couldn't pronounce even if they tried, so they just said what they could manage, that being "Umiya." Later, when he tried to show them, it was still impossible to make the "Fu" sound. I think because it's not just the guttural "Hu" of the Western languages or lip-to-teeth push of the western "fu," but some sort of sound in between, created not from any action in the throat, but a push from the stomach through lightly closed lips in the partially-attempted shape of the western "fu" sound.
If it wasn't written on paper and an individual heard him say his name, most likely not adapted to a vowel-consonant sound characteristic of French, they would probably have no know what in the world his name was, be it Humiya or Fumiya.
^_^ Hope that helps,
London
Wow! Thank you so very much for your wonderfully detailed explanation!! I know some French and would love to learn Japanese. I am in awe of your abilities! I'm so jealous!
Your explanation taught me a great deal. Thank you.
Thank you also for all your hard work in translating this wonderful story. We readers would be so lost without generous people like you.
I've been interested in joining a scanlation group but, I'm not sure how to go about it or what I'd need (hardware) to do the job. I have a background in theater, journalism, and medicine. Bizarre mix, I know. I'm a bit of a terrible grammar nazi and would love to help a group proof read their English or help an individual hone their English skills. Please let me know if I can be of service.
Thanks again for EVERYTHING!
Ok, that was sooo cool. I used your explanation to try to imitate the sounds you were describing and... I GOT IT!! I understood EXACTLY what you were getting at!
Awesome description and explanation. Thank you soooo much!
Ok, that was sooo cool. I used your explanation to try to imitate the sounds you were describing and... I GOT IT!! I understood EXACTLY what you were getting at!
Awesome description and explanation. Thank you soooo much!
It's like trying to describe the sound of a French "R" versus an American "R" (not just English but American) to an American English speaker. You have to make them gargle!! It's a sound made in the throat not the mouth. American English speakers tend to only use our mouth to speak and we forget that other languages use the diaphragm, throat and soft palate.
You are an amazing teacher!
Thanks again..
It does help to explain a great deal, because the thought that French speakers could not produce a clear 'F' sound was just too preposterous, but if the Japanese consonant is heavily aspirated (like the "Bhu" or "Dhu" sounds in Sanskrit), then I can see where someone who is unaccustomed to the elipsed sound would omit it altogether. B and D are percussive, which makes them clear even when they are expelled with that breathier accompaniment, but F is already aspirated, so there would be less distinction.
What a tricky puzzle to work out. I can see why your lead editor didn't want to change it, because it seems to be a key plot point, but it is confusing to people who've heard French. I kept thinking "What? What? No, no, no, no, no! Vive la Fffffffrance!" LOL. I commend you for working through it.
(Now I will have to go back to my old Samurai Champloo subs and listen very, very carefully to the way the lead female character's name is pronounced, so I can be sure to pronounce yours correctly in the. admittedly unlikely, event that we should ever discuss anything offline.)
Okay, I got it. Yuuki explained it in a way that I could follow. The aspirated "F" is a Japanese sound, and inclined to be misheard as an "H". That's very different than saying that the French do not pronounce their effs.
Hello! Thank you for your explanation. It was most enlightening! =) I speak a little french but not at all japanese so I had no idea of all those interesting subtle differences in pronouncing the phoneme 'f'. I'm also a former student of french so linguisics is allways very interesting. =D I'm so happy that your scanlation group does all the hard work of translating this wonderfull manga, and may I say so splendidly! Keep on with the good work and send my thanks to everyone =)
I apologize for taking so long to get back to you. If you think you have the time, you can apply to any of the positions in a small scanlation group - with any luck, you'll get in. It helps to have a background in Japanese when you're a proofreader, because the translations you get, even if they go through two or three people before you, are reallllllly funky sentences that are sometimes really abstracted from the original meaning (it has a lot to do with the translator using incorrect vocabulary at times).
My group is Indigo, as you might know. We work in conjunction with a lot of other groups. If you're good digitally, we're looking for typesetters and cleaners at the moment. But do check our application process and apply for what suits you! Here's the link! http://indigoscanlations.co.vu/join
No problem! ^_^ I love the scanlating process~ <3 I have 3 more projects on the way. Snip,Snail, Dog Tail and another set of goodies that I don't think I can disclose. Be looking forward to it!
thank you so much for this, yuuki/bonbon. i had a general idea what was going on with the french characters mispronouncing fumiya's name, but this linguistic explanation was beyond excellent. when i learn languages and even people's names, i rely mostly on my ears, so i'm more of an imitator. trying to pronounce something the way it's written down on paper can be the trickiest thing, unless you're aware of how every single language in the world works lol. i think we americans have a tendency to anglicize everything, so the hiragana explanation was super key. it makes sense that the french found the closest way they knew to pronounce his name, so i see why you went to "umiya" and not "humiya". super scanlations and super story. <3 and again, thank you for taking the time to educate us.
No problem! I've since moved on to become a translator in recent years :) I'll plug in for that read - it's called kaze to ki no uta. If you're not reading anything, check it out! Glad my comment helped~ happy reading!