blueninja89's Topics (631)

or even asexual. i have never seen an asexual man in a bl story and it's disappointing

and it's such a "banality" in the bl genre that people don't even refer to the characters as their name but as their role in bed. which is disgusting and fetishizing and sexualizing gay relationship. even in shounen ai they somehow ask "who's the seme and who's the uke" as if it's the most important thing about that story

You’re completely correct (how heteronormative the majority of BL is, how sex positions never change, how you don’t see verse/verse tops/verse bottoms), but don’t drag this work. Zumiya Zeniko is a lesbian who started out with Shoujo Ai/regular comedy and then got into shounen ai . I’ve never seen her be fetish-y towards rl mlm

If a member of the LGBT wants to write their story this way, so be it. It’s not their responsibility to write the most accurate/educational LGBT romance. It’s on the audience to never apply BL knowledge to real life mlm and to do LGBT research.

Also, as a high femme lesbian, I like GL/BL with clear defined roles, and I’m tired of being told I’m a disappointment for ‘liking heteronormative gay media, you’re not a real lesbian’.

In the end: yeah you’re right and I do wish to see a change in BL for the sake of rl mlm, but also don’t drag a work which was written by a LGBT member.

Thare is a man who is ace in "All about lust"
Hmmm... This statement itself is a tiny spoiler(￣∇￣")

And this is question i made before... Thare is recs and an article with tons of recs... Not only stories but thare is so much ship analysis and stuff like that... Its really interesting if you're wanna know more about ace people and stories.

https://www.mangago.zone/home/mangatopic/12253100/

I understand your point but thats ridiculous to claim that a member of the LGBT isn't allowed to be critiqued solely because they are a member of said minority. I may not agree with how the plot is written but I'm critiquing her work not the individual themself. Granted the fact that she may know better and choose to perpetuate stereotypes as you've said does come into play but is afterall her own personal business. As a lesbian as you said and not a gay man she's not directly impacted in her own writing and that does say something, additionally she's not writing for an audience known for its LGBT accuracy or even reader attendence. Would she apply this same level of stereotype writing a GL story given her personal background? That's a question we don't know. At the end of the day as you've said it's her work and her decisions, but please don't tie in an author's sexuality to excuse their work, just as an author is valid to write so are others to critique it. It's like if Caitlyn Jenner a transwoman but still showed homophobia or transphobia as she actually does and excused it because she's LGBT it's not fair to others in the community and insulting.

You are so right! I'm so sorry it's a sexually that is constantly overlooked and I even did it myself just now!

i'll have to read it

While I can sympathize with your frustrations with BL as a genre, I think you're being a little unfair to this work in particular.

"penetrative sex is not a requirement to have sex let alone to be in a gay relationship."

And what happens when - just a thought - one of the partners wants to have anal sex?
You say that there is no room for change or compromise, but Seichirou literally does just that when he volunteers to switch from seme to uke after Uta becomes anxious with the idea of bottoming, putting his lover's comfort over his own sexual desires. That's already a far cry from what happens in most BL, even more tame BL like Given doesn't do this. More often than not the seme just forces the uke into submission and they don't even bother discussing positions at all.
You say this is heteronormative, but I disagree. Seichirou has almost all the stereotypically seme characteristics: he's taller, more confident and composed, and is by far the more sexually aggressive of the two, and yet he's the uke? That's pretty subversive for most BL.

"Regardless of the reality of gay/bi men being bottoms, tops, verse, verse top, verse bottom, side"

But it's also the reality that many gay couples do have partners with exclusive top/bottom roles. I don't think that preference is any less valid to be in a gay relationship. And besides, we don' even know if they are exclusive, just that they have their preferences like any couple.

There is (￣∇￣)

There really isn't an issue nor are you wrong in how this couple can decide how they should sex based on what they feel comfortable with. The issue is the reason why one is bottoming is rooted in their partner's discomfort in the idea of anal sex in general and given the setting of Japan is likely rooted in masculine identity and a general Iack of sex education in sexual practices between mlm relationships. Seichirou obviously still wanted to top at some point but now as this is a BL and is often binary in it's expression of sex, Seichirou will FOREVER remain the bottom in their relationship despite the clear evidence he's doing so specifically because he would rather relieve Uta of any discomfort physically and emotionally. Realistically neither has been in a gay sexual relationship and neither has experience but now this experience will be locked in defining roles, that had we had Uta possibly doing his own research as well as instead of solely relying on Seichirou both boys could theoretically come to an arangement that didn't feel completely to the benefit of one partner.

We see this a lot in in BL when it concerns virginal characters or even one character has a preferred sexual position but completely changes to accomadate their partner's needs. Sexual compatibility never seems to be an issue in BL it's just someone rolls over for the other to just make the story work, despite many relationships requiring intimacy that each partner receives within that relationship that meets their personal needs wants or desires.

Sex isn't everything nor should it be but they do in fact have a sexual relationship that is a fact presented here. And it just gets annoying how unreleasatic that Seichirou is completely fine with the situation when he's a grown man who has shown an actual interest in not being a bottom but now for primarily the readers sake will be defined by his role as again BL conflates sexual position with characterization. One great example of a plot that actually properly breaks the mold is Neko x Neko. https://www.mangago.zone/read-manga/neko_x_neko/

So in conclusion I get your point of about preferences and such within gay sex but it doesn't apply here is what I'm saying. It's one person just making their partner happy and probably enjoys it now but that wasn't that they actually wanted from themselves is my point.

"how unreleasatic that Seichirou is completely fine with the situation when he's a grown man who has shown an actual interest in not being a bottom"
How is his indifferent change of mind unrealistic when it matches his pre-established blasé characterization? It fits perfectly well in my view.
And there is no evidence to assert that he was ever opposed to bottoming. At most, we could say that he desired to have sex with his partner and just assumed he'd top since he clearly takes the most initiative between the two?
Does it conform to a pattern within the genre? Maybe, sure. But it's not like it's just done just for the sake of convention as you assert, there's adequate justification for it based not on just being a naked trope, but based on characterisation that naturally flows into that decision.
You could say it's unrealistic, but how sure are you of that? Because we clearly do have real-world examples of gay men switching positions, sometimes even permanently, based on which partner they are with from sex surveys and academic studies.

"BL conflates sexual position with characterization."
In general? Sure. For this work in particular? No, in fact, it reverses it by having the naive and innocent virgin as the top.

" One great example of a plot that actually properly breaks the mold is Neko x Neko"
I've read it, and yes, while that manga does subvert some BL cliches, you must admit it absolutely wallows in others, no? For example the feminine character design, the infamous “I’m not gay it’s only you“ trope, and equating masculine appearance with being a seme. Remember, only when Keita matures into a "manly guy", i.e. when he assumes a " masculine identity" (to use your own words) and grows in stature and physique to match Satoshi, does he actually want to become a top. Pretty heteronormative right? And yet Kawa ni Sazanami doesn't conflate sex positions with stereotypical gendered roles. Again, as I've argued, by standard BL tropes Seichirou should be the top as he's coded more masculine, but he isn't and based on the raws he doesn't care either way. Seems bizarre to champion Neko x Neko whilst simultaneously belitteling Sazanami, not to mention how unfair it is to compare and criticize a small, 3-pages-per-chapter comic strip for not being as comprehensive and detailed as a 3 volume series with over 500 pages of content.

Look, I get it. If your argument was one of taste, i.e. "I personally prefered switch couples and feminine ukes", I wouldn't object. But it just seems unreasonable to criticise a work not based on its own merits, but because it doesn't cater to your tastes.

They are mates and he was in heat. Also the seme is hot as hell, resisting is not an option.

Holy fuck you're right
That mf

Its a demon, its not human (￣∇￣") they dont have our morals, they are driven by desire

yeah... ヽ(`Д´)ﾉ of course, he won't do those things till he teen idk...my assumption. (￣ε(#￣)Σ

Welp he is a demon indeed

I agree with this.

exactly ! sunwoo shouldve moved on nd been happy wit someone else like it was 8 years later ! then dahm can see he made the wrong choice but he was too many years too late

like almost a fucking decade?! get the fuck out of here.You've spent more years as strangers than having even known each other, especially since you were only just teens people completely change from their teens to their late twenties. That's just ridiculous.

Wellll technically it wasn’t too late seeing how sunwoo accepted him pretty easily, no hate tho I get what u mean lol

He didn't really say no, it was more of like a not now its my turn. and most bottoms in bl probably wouldn't top either way. i dunno why that is though.

hahaha i dont rly know if i qualify to answer since im lesbian and not mlm, but within the gay community, positions in bed rly depend solely on the persons involved. some ppl are strictly top, and either dont care/dont feel comfortable about bottoming. vice versa with bottoms. there are also switches which are ok with both. i myself only bottom and would feel awkward and out of place topping a girl.

I have to say this but being mainly or solely a bottom or a top is not heteronormative nor is it that rare. In this scene, Hwi didn’t want to bottom and Param didn’t show “discomfort” in not being allowed to top Hwi. Maybe he doesn’t want to bottom, like ever. I don’t want to bottom in sexual relationships. Couples many times pick and choose sex roles based on what they are comfortable with. In this case, Param had taken control and was pleasuring Hwi. Hwi teasing Param really is not that serious. Param did not show discomfort or a huge urge in wanting to top.

I have a college best friend who is gay and he also likes to only top. I personally thought most queer people switch but it really depends. Not that it’s my business.

the rational of my point is the context of how their relationship started. You have a virginal man who is made fun of for his repressed expression of his sexuality, and then for it to be policed (blackmailed) for the sake of the plot to create not only the plot but the initial main character interactions. The whole plot centers around a man who cannot freely express his desires and turn-ons. My point isn't about their chosen sexual roles per say, but rather Hwi discouraging the idea of Param topping. They can decide of course that they're fine with their chosen roles, not everyone is versatile or even engaging in penetrative anal sex within a gay relationship that's BL's ignorance. It's rather that Param's sole sexual experiences have been with Hwi, Param may in fact like topping he may never know, but because BL often creates strict sexual roles and adheres to them, a plot centered around a gay man coming into his sexual identity and now actively pursuing sexual pleasure shouldn't be policed when it's convenient for the plot to maintain the status quo. It's a very specific thing in BL, that doesn't make sense when especially it's two men sexually involved, and can easily take on dominant/ submissive role should they choose, but the option when presented is often solely decided upon by the more experienced partner. It creates these binaries for sex, given sexual positioning in BL is not solely just an act of sex, but a characterization and significant to that character's reception. It bothers me that people are so desensitized to BL's incorrect and stereotypical portrayal of gay/bi men is seen as gospel and any critique or point out maybe something that could have been written/ drawn with better insight is just wrong for doing so. I could break this down further, but it's often just a waste of time.

I brought up the chosen roles not being heteronormative because I keep seeing it. yaoi/bl is many times heteronormative, but having preferences for positions is pretty common among queer people. There are plenty of queer couples who don’t switch. I agree with strict sexual roles being part of BL but most of the audiences are straight women with fantasies. There are plenty of BL with queer audiences but many times, the audiences are straight women hence why we see the strict sexual roles. My perception of BL is not even close to real queer men and I would hope this is the case for most? There is not much realism.

In regards to this story, I think the author did something new by having Param explore sex with another man. I don’t usually see this in BL. So his only sexual experience has not only been with Hwi. But I don’t think it’s a bad thing for someone to have sex with one person in their whole life. Hwi is still the more sexually experienced so it’s not really that out of place for him to take the lead more often than not and it makes sense. While I can see your point about it being cliche and overdone, it’s not far fetched. I agree that it would have been great if they switched but the story still wanted to stay true to their sexual dynamic, in that Param is still learning and becoming more sexually experienced. Which has been the main plot. They might switch later on, who knows? That comes down to how Hwi feels about it but I don’t think this sex scene was supposed to be a toxic element of the sexually experienced one putting down the less sexually experienced one.

I'll admit may tone may sound like I looking down on their relationship but that was not my intention.And yes Hwi is Param's first ever sexual experience it is pointedly stated somewhere earlier in the story that Param was completely sexually repressed in all ways. Again I don't dislike the story, I'm just exhausted by this dynamic of virgins taught by more sexually experienced partners, and somehow their sexual education is limited to the roles and desires of the experienced partner. It's very common in BL, and while it's not actually toxic, I mainly find issue with it because of how it just unfortunately plays into BL's narrative of emasculation, misogyny, and gender roles which are in fact heteronormative and can be toxic. This author and this plot may not even be intending to be complicit to this, but my pointing it out has been received with hostility from others not willing to engage in conversation like you are kindly doing. Again i wouldn't have any issue with this if this trope didn't rely on the uke/seme dichotomy defining a character rather than just a preferred sexual role in a genre centered outside of "conventional" = heteronormative romantic partnering.

Many books and movies of all backgrounds have the same dynamic of the virgin being taught by the sexually mature one. It makes me think that it could be a huge desire for many? Or maybe it’s a common thing that happens? I’m not sure. But it does give the sexually mature one more power. I agree with that. I also really like this story and just like to discuss the negatives as well as the positives. It’s not perfect and I agree with the points you made about the seme/uke roles defining characteristics but I still like their relationship. I also like how Param is becoming more confident and upfront. I hope to see a more upward trend.

yeah it's officially that last chapter solidified that Bliss is straight up entitled trash.

Good lord, couldn’t agree more! This story kinda frustrates me