blueninja89's Topics (654)

Sorry I can be blunt. I’m just tired of plots like this. They rely on proper character and world building but completely undermine the entirety of the plot to hyper focus on unrealistic romance elements. It’s not a love story, it’s a romance so regardless off the dark themes and elements a “happily ever after” must be insured for its conclusion. When a love story does not. Thus it romanticizes all aspects of the story providing this as sufficient for validating the plot’s motivations and progression, despite the damage or harm done to its world and characters. It’s the same mindset used to excuse actual abuse and rape, and it’s tiring that an entire genre centers around this as entertainment and is projected as a space of female sexuality, the irony.

I haven’t finished but I like it so far. It’s pretty much very similar to this one in atmosphere minus the standard rigid seme and uke personality roles.

I don’t even mind if others disagree with me, this would be considered a diamond among the usual, but if you become accustomed to a certain standard, that’s only to be expected. Cliched stories aren’t bad stories but there is so much that could be improved on in this one especially given the foundation is clearly there for it be unique.

See then we differ completely because I loath plots like the ones you enjoy because that mentality can bleed into reality. That’s not to say this is the case for everyone or even for you for that matter, but fiction is not entirely removed from the realm of reality and both can be an influence to the other. My issue isn’t someone enjoying dragons and unicorns but when it’s along the lines of rape, murder, etc and every single plot is either a comedic or light hearted rendition, exposure to this becomes desensitizing. Rather no one expects to play violent video games to proceed a murder spree, but the separation of empathy blurs the impact of either experience. Hence you can have a character date raped, and a reader will apply the same logic of well they didn’t resist and alcohol isn’t enough to designate rape. Is that not already a problematic rhetoric of our current modern rape apologia? Providing material that reinforces these internalized biases and learned behaviors is just as much an impact regardless the medium of dissemination. Thank you for your suggestions though,I do enjoy reading mostly anything and you seem well versed.

Oh this was quite sad. It’s good.

I’ve wanted to watch the movie is it good?

Why aren't you still here looking for your favorite?

I’ll have to give if a watch now.Haha I’m like an open book now. Thank you :)

Also should tell you i stared solo leveling because of your rec. I like it. I even finished the novel version as well.

!!!

Shiiiiii. You right(￣∇￣") but still Hahahahahahah

FACTS!!! I hate hate HATE the ml because he forced the fl to have sex with him multiple times, and he never told the lf about the affair. The fl found out about the affair on her own, and instead of doing something about it, she literally fetishizes it and tries to watch them doing it. How could you be so happy watching your partner have an affair that they tried to keep a secret from you?!

why? ╮(￣▽￣)╭

(assuming I got this right) since Toma is in highschool he's around 16-18 (let's assume he's 17) and since Nao said he finished college when Rei, Toma's classmate, was born
so that means Nao is 41 years old leaving a 24 year age gap, which makes most people uncomfortable

I don’t really get the point of judging people who date guys who are older or younger than themselves, even if it’s a large age gap.

You date people your own age because you have something in common with them. You date people who are older (or younger) because you feel like you don’t have much in common with people your own age.

Cross generational relationships are pretty common in the gay community, and I hate how straight people see it as all daddy fetishes or perverted old men. Being gay already puts us in a small community; our relationship standards don’t have to be the same as straight people’s.

Even in the gay/ bi community it’s commented on because it can be fetishizing. You have older men after the age of 30-35 already being put to pasture called Daddy and sexualized for their sexual experience. And on the other end younger men barely out of their teens being coveted for their youth. Of course this happens in heterosexual couples just as well. Being part of the lgbtq+ doesn’t mean these issues shouldn’t be acknowledged. There are ways of addressing it that make sense to question age differences and ways that are clearly agist and a prejudice. Of course everyone should be with whomever they love. However in this plot you have a 20+ age gap that is directly related to their difference in maturity, current life goals, responsibilities, and most importantly how there’s a need for secrecy as it could ruin a father and his son’s relationship. The uke was lied to but after finding out the age of his UNDERAGE sexual partner continues to engage in a relationship with man who is not only his son’s age but also his son’s closes friend. Knowing this is wrong but allows it to continue. The maturity level of the seme is none existent, being childish enough to lie about his age, betray a friend’s trust and likely boundaries-having not spoken about how he’s pursing his friend’s closeted father. There so many elements to this plot that are problematic even disregarding the age of its two main character. This stuff does happen in real life too, and the drama of how this would implode an already tentative relationship between a father and his son all so he can continue to get dick is so unappealing to me and I’m sure to many people. I’m sure some can enjoy the fantasy or as I personally know with my own group of gay friends have pursued the said fantasy tried their luck and hope they don’t regret it.

I was mostly commenting on prejudices against age gaps, not on the particular circumstance of it in this manga. I guess I can address that later in my comment.... this is going to get long...

You’ve seen an age gap and have already labeled it as ‘an issue that needs to be acknowledged.’ Daddy and youth fetishization exist, sure, but if you see a couple with an age gap irl and immediately become judgmental and assume a problematic dynamic is happening, then you are probably not questioning unequal power dynamics. More likely you’re just prejudiced against non-conventional relationships. It IS a form of heteronormative projection, of trying to assign what makes a ‘correct’ and ‘healthy’ relationship, and monitor the types of relationships that should and shouldn’t exist.

If someone sees a gay interracial couple, and their immediate reaction is, ‘Well, they must only be together because they fetishize their racial difference,’ what’s happening is that person is trying to dismiss the validity of those relationships because of their own assuming prejudice. Do gay men sometimes fetishize race in terrible and problematic ways? Absolutely. Should this be addressed? Again, absolutely. But to use that as a framework for looking at and questioning ALL interracial relationships is just another way of trying to confirm people’s own (racist) biases.

Age and race makes an imperfect comparison, but I felt the similarities of cultural bias were striking enough to point out.

As far as this manga goes, I’m guessing the mangaka is trying to form a question around the age gap: If a kid has a terminal illness, should they be given the opportunity to have adult experiences before they die if that’s what they want? I haven’t read the raws, so I can only speculate, but all of those differences—maturity, life goals, responsibilities—how important are they when the kid has/had cancer? How does potential death/a-close-call with death change the priorities of a relationship? This is probably the question the mangaka is working towards. The premise seems similar to a very sad chapter in Love Mode.

The hard thing about a lot of BL is that the stories are not just erotic fantasy, like you pointed out, they are also fiction. There are stories with premises and questions beneath all the romanticized sex and unhealthily idealized relationships. The manga industry probably wouldn’t have published a lot of these stories if they weren’t half porn, and a lot of the problematics of BL manga come from that intersection of sincere storytelling and blatant pornography. So I usually read BL manga with that mentality.

I’m mature enough to see the lines between what is fantasy (the porno/jack off material), fiction (the story and questions the mangaka has), and reality. These stories aren’t hurting anyone by indulging in their sex fantasies or asking provocative questions. So why dwell on the problematics as if they were reality? I DO
wish mangago had a better tagging/content warning system so people could avoid the content they don’t want to see. It would probably reduce the number of times I’d have to make this dumb spiel.

How the fuck you gonna be mad someone is just asking for a warning? More so when the comment section is just bitching about feeling attacked for enjoying their rape plots. Enjoy it but let others have a choice to avoid it. Seriously you make yourself look like the clown.

They did add a warning tho, page 2.

That’s great. Then it’s only the tag that’s needed then.

Nah I get where ya coming from but just wanted to point it out ╮(￣▽￣)╭

You’re on the few. God forbid you don’t enjoy rape in BL people come for your head.

One of the few *^

True, people really be getting butthurt if ya call them out on it. I'm still going to follow this one cause I'm curious. ╮(￣▽￣)╭

He turned into an ostrich... biology teacher doesn't have an answer to that either... probably

According to readers it's not real rape if it's in a yaoi

Unless it's by somebody they don't find attractive

Lol.

god, what happened in ther modern day wasnt rape!! read the last few chapters explaining what happened that night...

Here they come.

It's rape but it's fictional. Getting pressed over fiction is pretty pointless

I can't stress enough, how accurate this is.

Did they not just prove my point lmso
It's not real rape because senior liked him and it's fiction

have you read ch52 and 53, they confessed their love and they kissed, after that they made love. It wasn't raped at all if you look close to it, and Hosik didn't hate it actually (when they were having sex, Hosik did hold onto sunbae and yes he is not conscious he still drunk, but he knew what was going on. When they arrived at sunbae' home, Hosik was embarrassed so he wanted to come back home, then sunbae confessed to him, and Hosik said he like sunbae as well. -> He wasn't that drunk that he hadn't known what was happened, and after that, they kissed and moved to the bed, Hosik didn't reject sunbae at all or cried and did things that will definitely happen if he was rape.

In the first few chapters, Hosik forgot what had happened, rather than he thought he was rape (he forgot the fact that he was consent as well) he was embarrassed of the fact that they had sex.

I bet you haven't read chapter 52 53 54, that was not rape, read it. They confessed and H didn't reject S when they started to kiss, and after that when they were in the bed, H didn't reject S, when they started to have sex, H didn't reject him as well.

He was drunk when they first had sex. That's still rape

=))))) he was not that drunk that he didn't know what was going on. =))))))) rape is not defined that way, and it was not against his will since he didn't reject S at all =))))))))

If you jump through this many hoops and excuses to not Call it rape great. Ima call it What did is because the definition doesn't change with me just me.Plus I don't understand why they couldn't go on a date And then go home and it happen naturally. I know I'm dealing with children because y'all definitions of rape is so pathetic

People always only agree to things that suit them lol. It is what it is, no matter how drunk Hosik was. Y'all need to acknowledge that and move on. I don't know why people feel this need to correct every 'it's rape' comment. Most of the time, it is fictional rape. People are such snowflakes lol.

=)))))))))))))))))) yeah right, so I am as a law student who is studying about law just help you to check what Korean criminal code stated about "rape" =))))))) and here it is:
"Article 297 (Rape)
A person who, through violence or intimidation, has sexual intercourse with a female, shall be punished by limited imprisonment for not less than three years."
=)))))))) Referring to what the law stated, did S use violence when they had sex the first time in modern life - nah I don't think so, or, did he intimidation when they made love - nah not at all. =))))))) So well, I will conclude that he did not rape H at all. =)))))

Oh and I found another article relevant to this as well,
"Article 299 (Quasi-Rape, Quasi-Indecent Act by Compulsion)
A person who has sexual intercourse with a female or commits an indecent act on another by taking advantage of the other’s condition of unconsciousness or inability to resist shall be punished in accordance with the preceding two Articles."
=))))))) so did H was unconscious or inability to resist - nah I don't think so, H still can answer what S asked and he did know where the door was also, besides that he showed no sign of resist at all when they kissed or when they started to undress.

Ah right, what definition of rape isn't a matter to you, yeah right, so basically everything should base on the subject point of view rather than the object point of view. =)))))) So no need to have law and legislative system or anything similar, cause you can always jump to conclusion and accuse one is guilty or not based only on your "thought" =)))))))) ok fine, gals, you know the world won't work that way right, if not no one will be able to survive with that "mindset" like, e.g you.

=)))))))))))))) Oh right, for any more information view this site to "wider" your knowledge at least. https://www.refworld.org/pdfid/3f49e3ed4.pdf - this is a pdf for Criminal code in Korean, oh btw, yeah right everyone has their own right to speak anything in their mind, but if you act so carefree and let your mind run wild then you are violating your own right. =))))))))

woahhh,

This is such big the legal age of Japan is thirteen so it's okay if we see a 12 year old girl vetting sexualized. Congratulations on looking up Korean law to prove that blacking out drunk and waking up with somebody fucking you isn't rape. And that they force you to suck their dick. Fuck y'all you ppl on here are rape supporters and you probably blame rape victims. Fuck off and die

Please don’t get heated they’re not worth it.

It's just getting annoying. Yaoi has been killed because I'm tired of ever story being rape. But ppl looking up the law to justify rape is just too much

If you want some palate cleansers that aren’t BL I have recs. I’ve personally started reading genres outside of BL and romance in general (since most of the relationships even in shoju/ shounen ai/ shoju ai can be borderline problematic).

Ive transitioned into a lot of manwhas. I really enjoy the college based ones seeing ppl eat and drink.
And reincarnation but the really good ones

I’ve been loving fantasy and sci-fi monster plots. Literally as opposite as you can get.

It’s all the points you’ve brought that make this plot so good and against the grain of most. But sigh I guess we can’t have everything. What would be such a great plot twist is Kirin actually being smart enough to use Kang moo all while collecting evidence of his own to frame Kang moo. Now that would actually subvert the cliche we are used to. But Kirin is written to be emotionally driven and that’s also his weakness, I so assume the author intends to use that as enough of a reason for him to love Kang moo despite the coerced rape, manipulation, physical abuse, and threats he’s faced. Not to mention he’s already reduce himself to the mindset that he’s a “kept” woman so I guess there we have it.

It’s those kinds of details I love. But most only mainly enjoyed the “romance” that wasn’t even there. I was so glad KS ended the way it ended as it was so satisfying to some degree witness the fickle cruelty of the faiths and on another note have my vindictive self enjoy m those who shipped the romance be dashed of their delusions.I revel in that kind of literary realism.

Exactly! To your last point. Somehow this will then justify Kang moo‘s constant mistreatment of Kirin as it’s in Kirin’s best interest as his savior. With this mindset Kang Moo psychopathy is used to enhance his appeal and desirability rather harm it causes without bias to all those around him, with Kirin at its epicenter. iKirin has no agency in his own vengeance story. The mere fact of this is what undermines the plot if even he can’t accomplish his goal unless it’s at Kang Moo’s approval. Sometime one genre just doesn’t crossover with another genre and makes the plot worse for that. this is just so forced.

At this point because it’s BL, it sells the idea more and garners a reliable audience who’s demographic are avid consumers. it’s more or less exploitative if this element adds no substance or it is not given substance. KS fell in this trap too to some degree by the author relying on mlm but not considering the history of BL and it’s tendency for toxic behavior within its community. When the author attempted to walk that back it was too late and overshadowed the entirety of the work. I love queer representation and wholeheartedly agree it should be normalized, but if the plot just centers around the characters sexualization what’s the point of the rest of the plot if doesn’t further the narrative, but rather just provides detours. It’s counter productive to the authenticity. This especially worse with plots that do opposite of the spectrum in queer baiting. There needs to be a balance. It’d be different if this plot was entirely centered as smut, but it isn’t so this just hurts it in my opinion.

I mean go off. If I had soap box I’d up there all day. And Momentum is a wonderful example of good story telling. I truly wish there were more like it. Truthfully because of the annoyances you’ve mentioned I’ve gravitated to more and more manga/ manhwa that have nothing to do with BL because of these reasons.I’ve been reading BL since I was 13 now over a decade later here I am having grown up and made changes in my mindset and understanding of the world, yet the material I would so gladly turn to as one of the few sources of queer representation has not done the same. And while I was fortunate to seek further outside sources of queer kinship others have not or have been unable to. And have grown with the mindsets and examples of a genre that has done so little to actually help the lgbt it takes from.

Granted look at just the growing downvotes since we’ve started our discussion. How do you expect authors to change or develop better writing when critical discussions is seen as unfavorable even among readers. It’s no surprise the genre is stagnant.

Dont get me started. I know people love it got the art and sex but the utter romanticization of McQueen’s abuse of power in the sex industry and his employees, the typical I’m only gay for you homophobic straight guy Ed, the stereotypical submissive Asian to Eurocentric partner idolization and white savior complex dynamic, the “sympathetic” rapist Chang , McQuee’s exploitation of a rape victim and drug addict(Ryan). All of it is just set up as some tragic love story ignoring every single problematic element and people adore it for its melodrama. I know it’s based on a light novel so I don’t fault the artist themself, the source material is some Harlequin paperback Fabio nonsense just with having everyone is gay thrown in.

This plot







Spoiler:


Looks like it’s going to be either turn him gay bet setup among the doctor’s friends. Or the doctor having a past connected to the MC and is specifically using is position inappropriately “befriend” his patient and gain his trust. These sort of plots are so problematic but are just framed as comedic. When you turn around and have a female character in such a position it would be heinous. Just look the national gymnast doctor scandal hundreds of girls and boys sexually exploited it’s even a documentary on Netflix now, Athlete A.

I’m the sort that likes BL literally only for the plot I could care less about the sex. I’d watch actual porn for that. So when the plot is shit, I actually care. I know some could care less even more so when the plot relies on “problematic realism” at the expense of exploiting queer experiences. I know it’s a low standards things more most, but there are some artists/authors who actually do care enough to write a fully fleshed researched and thought out plot and that’s why I even bother myself to continue to search out those gems.

Chef’s kiss.

Me too!! I Care a lot about the plot, the plot is what makes the sexual scenes satisfying, like it makes sense. The build up is important and it has to make sense. Also non of this abuse of power bullshit that people seem to lean on, do you know any good plot driven yaoi? Any suggestions? I have a few on my list but it’s rare to find those gems

I really would NOT compare this to Athlete A, that comparison is problematic and untrue.

In this story, both of them are consenting adults. In the beginning, the doctor did not have any ulterior motives and saw the main character as a patient. It’s clear that the main character was struggling with his sexuality and didn’t just magically turn gay. The sexual relationship had a more organic flow. Like most things, we can find problematic elements but it’s not a story about a doctor using his power to sexually abuse his patients.

My comparison may be a stretch that's understandable, but if you're fine with a doctor incorrectly using his position to physically and emotionally get closer to a patient, by giving him false information about his physical health, and using his patient's visits to touch him beyond the intentions of his initial visits, that's on you to rationalize. Nothing about this plot is organic. Organic would be finalizing their agreed upon visits in time only necessary, and then these two men running into each other outside of office hours in a public space, both single.My comparison is specifically centered around doctor/patient break of trust that was inflicted on athletes documented in Athlete A often with innocuous explanations they thought were reason enough to listen to their doctor. He completely takes advantage of them, and so does the doctor in this story out his own gain. While it may end up a happy ending ( I personally dropped this story), my point still stands. If you enjoyed this story that's fine, but do not romanticize what happened here just because this is a romantic story itself.

I never suggested this was romantic or that I was romanticizing it but the comparison to Athlete A? No. No. Even if you are discussing just doctor trust. The doctor from athlete A chose that position to sexually abuse children. That was the sole propose. The doctor in this story did not become a doctor to sexually abuse patients. He is not holding his position because he gets sexual gratification from what he does. He is also not choosing lovers based on his position. Even with the main character, his check ups were not giving him sexual gratification until much later, where they both decided to have a sexual relationship. I do agree that it was unprofessional for him to lie BASED on the main character being in a toxic relationship with his girlfriend. That was the reason, after his phone call with his girlfriend. It didn’t come from a predatory place by just looking at context. The plot centers around main character finding extreme sexual gratification from anal sex, from a doctor who he starts to see. Again, there are problematic elements don’t get me wrong but I just heavily disagree with the comparison. Nice discussion though.