Ahusha's Topics (314)

Oh no no
The top is the bottom's Friend's son..
And they were lovers in past life.
(The uke is 250 years old and he didn't age)

Nah!!! IDC that thing is a freaking child ..
And, he is an old grandpa who is aged... It means he is the real villain who is grooming after a kid

how???

I MEANT TO PRESS DISLIKE OMFGGGG NOOOOO

What? Nothing like that happened at all

Icl I don't even remember anything it's litch only been 2 days

WAHHHH THAT JUST HAPPENED TO ME TOO T-T

I dont think its cheating when she WANTED him to sleep around tho like it was a marriage without any love thats why they didnt really care which makes sense

It's not pretty privilege to forgive him when there's nothing to forgive him for. He's done nothing wrong to begin with. What is pretty privilege is ppl excusing Ines for manipulating him, forcing him to be engaged with her, forcing him into a marriage with her when she has no plan to rly be with him but just to use him to get his child in order to divorce him afterwards and use that child as a link to use his family name to avoid marrying the prince.

The og commenter is complete disregarding the fact that Ines TOLD him to sleep around though. That was a major part of the plot lol.

But i think your tale is kind of harsh on Ines considering what the alternative was. Y'know .. all the rape, stds and having to die over and ever again. Maybe I'm being dramatic but ...

She’s not being harsh. Even the story author doesn’t excuse Ines’s actions.

Kim ChaCha:

I think they're both flawed people, and they're both bad people to each other. They are selfish in different ways. Even when they were young, Ines overwhelmingly did. In the past life too.

So in the early days when the novel was serialized, Ines was also criticized a lot. If carcel is the man who betrayed his fiancee, Ines is the woman who used her young fiancé.

I think that the two main characters are both imperfect people. And I think they are a perfect couple who can fill in each other's imperfections. No matter who blames them, each other is the best option for them. The journey to show it was my novel.

summarizing this entire 96-chapter (and still ongoing) manhwa with such an oversimplified and offensive phrase is just not it. I won't even question if you read the entire thing. Carcel wasn’t forgiven just because he’s “hot and funny.” the younger, cheating version of Carcel was an abomination, a sorry excuse for a man. and since this story is told from Ines’ pov, I hated him for her (at first). but everytime his past cheating gets brought up, although I get the point (cause whoever supports cheating cjgth), I think about how Carcel said in one of their banters before marriage that he'll leave his debauched lifestyle once they're married. and he kept his word. we aren't excusing infidelity here, Carcel was a trash. I dropped this manhwa before because of him. this isn't "pretty privilege", rather it's growth, redemption, and breaking cycles of fate. we didn't just randomly forgave him, we saw/read his actions, his sincerity, and his commitment to change. he was faithful to Ines after they were married, and that's why we forgave him. at the end of the day, The Broken Ring isn’t just about romance, it’s about characters/people making choices, growing from them, and breaking free from the tragedies of their past lives. reducing it to “hot guy gets away with cheating” completely misses the point.

Another manhwa issue. The reason why Carcel was faithful in his marriage from Day 1 is because he does not believe in adultery. He believes as a Catholic once he said his marriage vows before God, he should honor them and honor his wife and family. He told Ines this before marriage and she was upset with him. Carcel is all about his responsibilities to his family. Season 3 will show it even more because at least then the manhwa can’t screw it up since events will show it.

When readers say Carcel changed or redeemed himself, Carcel is essentially the same person. We know this because the novel is full of his thoughts. The irony is even though he slept with others out of 3 months of the year when he visits Mendoza, his thoughts weren’t as bad as Ines’s thoughts and that’s why Ines’s was also criticized by readers. Ines herself does come to realize that Carcel is essentially a better person than her and he always was since the beginning of the story. As long as manhwa doesn’t cut out more things that make Ines look bad, season 3 will show more of why she would think that. Carcel of all timelines is consistent and it’s more proof that he’s always been like he is now. The irony is the author considered him the darkest in the true first timeline where Ines had a stronger influence on him early on and the brightest in this final timeline because he was estranged from her during their teenage years into his early 20s.

Another thing, the story is not told just from Ines’s point of view. Carcel and Ines’s are true co-protagonists of this story. The novel begins with Carcel’s point of view first then switches to Ines’s point of view and continues that way back and forth right to the end of the side story. Cárcel is not just Ines’s male lead, he is equal protagonist with her. It’s their story told from their points of view.

well we only know what the manhwa shows, and while we'd love to read the novel, too, we currently don't have the means to do so. you're coming in with a broad knowledge of Carcel's inner thoughts, while we only know what's shown to us in the manhwa adaptation. (though I admit that I might remember Carcel saying something about him not believing in adultery, which I may have overlooked while building my own idealistic 'promise of loyalty' for him.) but still, what we saw early on was a guy cheating to his fiancee for years. so of course, it felt like he needed to prove himself (considering the fact that he's the male lead or, as argued, an equal protagonist of Ines). whether or not he was always faithful in his heart won't change the fact that, for a manhwa-only reader's perspective, he ought to redeem himself by his actions, because we do not have an insight on what's supposedly always been inside him(yet?), and we don't have any reason to trust him. and I get that Carcel and Ines are co-protagonists in the novel, but in the manhwa here, we're mostly seeing things through Ines' pov. I'd bet that's why Carcel's initial hate train even started, because we are experiencing Ines' emotions and perspective more than Carcel's in the manhwa. we do not have the benefit of knowing whatever Carcel is thinking like novel readers do, so he just comes across as a reckless playboy to us. and honestly, his reasons for having that debauched lifestyle while being engaged... feels like nothing but excuses which highlights his immaturity more, especially when the manhwa has focused so much on Ines' tragic and failed attempts to rewrite her fate. that said, as the story progress and the focus shifts, I do feel my impression of Carcel change(drastically so). it even get me to the point where I can defend(?) him with only my knowledge of the manhwa... and I just hope they continue showing more of Carcel in the next seasons.

well, perhaps it's only a matter of storytelling differences because manhwa obviously is very limited and requires a lot more work compared to a novel that can dive into deeper narration. in the end, we are just having two different reading experiences, novel readers and manhwa readers. novel readers already know a lot if not the full picture, while we manhwa readers are still here hanging by the cliff of season 2's abrupt ending, piecing together what we know. so of course, our perceptions of Carcel aren't going to be the same, at least not yet. which I think is fine? as long as we don't expect manhwa readers to see Carcel's character the way novel readers do, because without the extra depth? it'd be unrealistic.

I mean, we only know what's covered in the first two seasons here, and anything beyond that are spoilers.

I’m often at a loss to understand why readers judge morality with double standards. Time and time again I see manhwa readers judge Carcel and call him ‘trash’ solely because he had consensual sex with other women during his engagement when he was basically estranged from his fiancée-in-name only whom he was not in a romantic relationship with. They even disregard the fact that Ines does not care about the way Carcel lived during his engagement to her. In fact, manhwa readers care more about Carcel’s premarital lifestyle than Ines ever does and ever will.

Another thing, if readers are judging Carcel as trash solely based on what he did with his genitalia during his engagement, why aren’t they similarly judging Ines who walked uninvited into a frightened stranger’s bedroom and proceeded to sit on his genitalia when she didn’t even know his name while she was not only engaged but in a romantic relationship with the crown prince for ten years and was three mere months away from marriage? Isn’t she similarly trashy? At least Carcel always had 100% consensual sex which I thought it would be something modern people can appreciate but evidently not since they turn a blind eye to Ines’s questionable behavior.

Carcel has not changed drastically. From the very moment Carcel got married, he acted like a decent husband. How in the world is that a drastic change?Did he change overnight? He was unmarried today and married the next day and he was the same person. He took care of Ines from Day 1 of his marriage. What happened is the story showed more of his character but readers don’t seem to understand this. They think they know his character in the first few chapters when as the story progresses all it does is reveal more of his character. Ines is the one who will undergoes drastic character development because she has a lot of lessons to learn. It’s the first time she will actually undergo good character development because she needed the maturity.

Also, calling what Carcel experiences frivolous is biased. Everyone’s pain is their own. If a male lead of another story neglected their fiancée like Ines treated Carcel, readers would call him trash. I see it so often. But when Ines does it, she gets the trauma card because for manhwa readers, trauma is the free excuse for all kinds of unacceptable behavior. Nevermind some of Ines’s trauma is from her own bad decisions. Since Carcel didn’t make similarly bad choices, readers thinks his life and grievances are trivial. That’s how they shallowly look at things when Ines herself will come to understand how terrible her action was in the way she treated him and even cry over it because she finally understood she hurt him. At least Ines grew enough to understand what some manhwa readers apparently will never understand and dismissed as unimportant.

Also, calling Carcel immature while ignoring Ines’s immaturity and very bad decisions is biased as well. Carcel never made ‘very’ bad decisions for his life. Carcel was always mature even from a young age. In his teens, like a teenager, his pride was hurt and he rebelled. Ines made bad choices as a teenager as well. However, if it’s one thing I can say about Carcel is he always took care of Ines. Even when he wasn’t her husband, where ever he could, he helped her. The two times he was her husband, he was more mature than her. Just wait until season 3 reveals the trouble she gave Carcel in the first life. Like another novel reader said early in the manhwa adaptation comments section, she was a shitty wife to Carcel. I usually say she was an extremely difficult wife to him but I couldn’t really disagree with that reader.

I get your frustration with the double standards, but I really do think the reason for the disparity is more about storytelling than reader hypocrisy. the manhwa frames Carcel and Ines differently from the start. Carcel’s playboy reputation is front and center, constantly reinforced, and given weight as a defining part of his introduction. on the other hand, Ines’ choices, even the ones that could be considered morally questionable, are presented within the context of her trauma and desperation(yep, trauma card as you called it). that naturally leads to different reader reactions, not necessarily because people excuse Ines and condemn Carcel unfairly, but because of how the story presents them.

manhwa readers don’t have the benefit of knowing Carcel’s internal thoughts like novel readers do. so when we see him engaging in infidelity, we only see the action, not the deeper reasoning behind it. at that point in the story, we don’t know that his actions are influenced by Ines’ past decisions, nor do we know his actual stance on loyalty. so, yes, he comes across as a reckless playboy. from a manhwa-only perspective, he has to prove himself through his actions because, at that stage, there’s no reason to trust that there’s more to him. and I did not say that he changed drastically, I meant to say that my impression of him did and my understanding of him deepen as the story evolves and we are given more context. that's why I said my impression of Carcel changed drastically, not that he did.

now, about Ines’ own actions... particularly the one you mentioned, where she slept with a painter three months before her wedding. I don’t think manhwa readers "turn a blind eye" to it, but the framing makes a difference. she wasn’t acting out of pleasure or indifference; she was in full desperation mode, trying to find any possible way to escape the same fate she suffered in what she believes was her first life. As you've said, three months, she only have three months left to escape the marriage with the crown prince, her ist, the very reason she had to khs. That doesn’t make her actions right, but it does provide a clear emotional motivation that makes us more inclined to sympathize rather than condemn. Carcel, on the other hand, is introduced as someone who seems to be living a carefree, indulgent life despite his engagement, with no visible sign of struggle or internal conflict. readers react to what’s in front of them. the more we see his actual perspective, the more that perception shifts... but that takes time.

I also think that comparing their morality needs to take into consideration the expectations that comes with their roles as the main couple in a romance manhwa. as the male lead, Carcel is expected to be someone who idk, deserve(?) the reader’s investment like any other male leads, because it calls for another character for the role otherwise. yes, it's shallow, but it's a manhwa in an overused setting, and this cliche leads to that cliche expectation. since his early introduction centers around his playboy lifestyle, that puts him in a position where he has to "redeem" himself in the eyes of readers. not because he's inherently a bad person, but because the genre itself sets that expectation for a male lead. Ines, on the other hand, is introduced as someone suffering and fighting to escape her past. even when she makes questionable decisions, the immediate instinct is to understand rather than condemn. we may or may not approve of her actions, but the story presented them in a way that it evokes understanding rather than an outright criticism. which isn't necessarily a double-standard, rather a matter of human perception. we see Carcel as someone who chooses his circumstances, while Ines is someone trapped in hers.

as for Carcel’s maturity, I do think there’s a valid argument that he was always emotionally steady in comparison to Ines. but again, manhwa readers don’t see that right away. what’s presented to us in the beginning is a man who looks like he isn’t taking his engagement seriously, while Ines is someone who has been through hell and back. without the additional knowledge that novel readers have, the initial contrast makes him seem immature in comparison.

I won’t comment on events that have yet to unfold because I simply don’t have the knowledge to do so. my perspective is based entirely on what the manhwa has shown so far, and my arguments reflect that. novel readers may have a fuller picture, but manhwa readers are forming opinions with the information available to us. it might be unreasonable to expect both groups to view things the same way at this stage.

Thank you for pointing out exactly why this manhwa is freaking biased. This is exactly why novel readers dropped this shitty adaptation and I’m probably one of the only original novel readers left reading this altered story. Author particularly made Ines the way she is on purpose. A selfish, spoiled female protagonist. She even recently said her current female protagonist was more selfish than Ines. She said this because her Korean readers were complaining about her current female protagonist. There are also novel readers who like that Ines was a flawed character. What this manhwa did was erased or basically hid Ines’s flaws that should have been revealed in the beginning and made everyone else in the story a villain except the guy from the previous timeline. They made Carcel the villain from day one and some novel readers were plenty upset about it because we already know Carcel is a MUCH better person from Ines. Who do think influence her change and character development? Carcel Escalante.

As to Ines’s trauma, you are precisely right that manhwa storyteller used it to wash Ines’s flaws away because they know the trauma card works and it worked so effectively that Ines can do no wrong in the eyes of manhwa readers. I even saw someone who read the novel who didn’t like Ines say she much prefer manhwa Ines. Why? They frame everything about her under trauma and she liked that because now Ines didn’t seem as much of a bitch, selfish or unlikeable. Personally I wouldn’t even be surprised if they further diminish this beautiful story in season 3 by cutting down on all the scenes that make Ines look terrible. They probably don’t even understand how important those scenes are for Ines’s growth as a person and a wife. For novel readers, they know how beautiful this journey is for Ines because ultimately the story is more about her healing than her past lives trauma.

Also, for me, I’m not carried away by consequences resulting from poor decisions. When I first read ch11 as a manhwa-only reader, the first thing I thought was Lydia Bennett of Pride and Prejudice. Then I thought, why didn’t she do like other desperate women had done by shaving her head and joining a convent? Or, why didn’t she just gather money and run away with her maid? How couldn’t she foresee the poor decision of running away with another man while engaged to marry the crown prince of the country is like throwing oil on fire. Not only does it implicate her family, it’s creating a nationwide scandal.

It was a story told in hindsight in both the manhwa and novel so I wasn’t caught up in blind emotion like it seems a lot of manhwa readers were. After I read the novel, I understood why she did that and part of it was her teenage emotions (confirmed by Ines in the story and author in the Q&A). When Ines explained it in her perspective after Carcel’s perspective, she was coldly giving an account of her past and even said, her 26 year old self would’ve slapped her 16 year old self for her foolish behavior. That’s the context it was framed under then she said her 16 year old self was looking for love after Oscar disappointed her in marriage in the previous life. That’s why any nice and good looking man would have done for her and she hung the frame, started painting then put the first man that fit her external criteria in it. (Ch94).

However, even without any of the above, it doesn’t change the fact that Ines chose a 6 year old kid, judged how he will turn out and decided to ruin his life. She knew the nobles would rather murder their spouse than divorce them. Yet, she intended to subject Carcel to this humiliation despite knowing it. And since she has the trauma card, manhwa readers just turn a blind to it just like they turn a blind eye to the fact she was constantly plotting to try to entice Carcel to commit adultery. Let’s not forget that she already gave a hint that Carcel helped her and her people during the previous timeline when they were running from the soldiers. So, what does it say about her when she repays the person who helped her when she was in dire straits that in the very next life she chooses him to use and dump? Wow. She’s such a good and kind person. It’s okay for her to destroy someone else’s life for the sake of her goal even when that person has always tried to help her without expecting anything in return. Yet, she’s considered the ‘better’ person.

Well, despite Carcel being called trash, he has never touched another woman without their consent. He has never destroyed anyone’s life. He has never used anyone’s life for his selfish purpose. He has never avenged himself on anyone. He has always treated his servants well. He takes care of his family and does his duty. Even when Ines gives him a hard time, he puts up with it. Even when Ines brings a woman into the house to entrap him, he doesn’t hold a grudge. Most people would have been angry and upset for a time but the same evening Carcel already forgot his anger and also told her he doesn’t want anyone to treat her like the crazy lady did. Excuse me. Who is the better person in this situation? Who is the mature person here?

I really love you all ... U all gave a pretty amazing argument.. It was good to learn...
Actually I was stuck with this fact that even though she's his fiancee he continued to meet another women which irritated him..

Irritated me*

I understand where you're coming from, and I get that Ines’ actions can seem hard to accept, especially when viewed from a hindsight perspective. but it’s really important to remember that her decisions were made in a moment of desperation and fear. yes, running away with another man while engaged to the crown prince was a reckless choice, and it did have big consequences, but Ines wasn’t acting out of malice but desperation. it's nowhere near Lydia Bennett's elopement with her now husband. Ines' decision is rooted from her feelings of fear and survival, not the same with the recklessness and thoughtlessness of Lydia's. she was trying to escape a traumatic fate, and her judgment was clouded by her past experiences. she was a 16-year-old girl who had already been through so much(iirc, she just woke up from khs), and it's very easy to criticize her decisions when we see them from the outside, but we need to remember the context in which she was making them. at that moment, she was desperately searching for a way out of a terrifying situation, and that's not something that should be dismissed outright.

I also understand that there’s frustration over Ines’ behavior in trying to push Carcel into a position where he could be humiliated or harm his reputation. but I really think it’s important to look at her intentions and context. she wasn’t just plotting to ruin Carcel’s life for the sake of cruelty. she was operating out of a deeply ingrained sense of fear, shame, and her own trauma. in her mind, she was already a woman scarred by past choices and was looking to escape a fate she felt powerless to change. her actions weren’t driven by malice but by a desire for control in a world where she felt trapped in (she's been through many reincarnation, and none of them are even remotely worth living). and yes, I am completely aware that understanding her trauma doesn't excuse her actions, but it does helps in explaining them. the pacing of her backstory-reveals also shows that she’s not just a victim, she's someone who’s made questionable choices while trying to survive. it might not be as dark as the novel, but I believe that's intentional. after all, manhwa readers tend to lean toward stories that balance romance and drama rather than diving deep into tragedy. however, that doesn’t mean the adaptation ruined the story... it just means it's being told in a way that better fits the format and its readers.

now, in terms of Carcel being portrayed as 'much' better than Ines, I understand why novel readers might feel that way. however, I don’t think that’s the point of their story at. all. Carcel helps Ines heal, yes, but Ines also changes Carcel in her own way. they both start with flaws, and they both grow together. it’s not about comparing who’s more morally upright, but about showing how they evolve together as a couple. their relationship isn’t about finding who the 'better' person is, but about two flawed individuals learning to love and support each other despite their imperfections. 'cause clearly, Carcel’s character isn’t perfect either. he’s introduced as a playboy, and even though the manhwa doesn’t dive into his internal conflict right away, it’s clear that he has his flaws... like his infidelity. while the manhwa highlighted this part of his character, it doesn’t make him out to be an 'irredeemable' villain. if the adaptation was truly biased, it could have exaggerated his flaws even more. but instead, we see him as kind, patient, and loyal, not a perfect person, but someone who is capable of growth and redemption. and when it comes to their moral choices, it’s crucial to consider the role that trauma plays in both characters’ actions. Ines, while making mistakes, is motivated by survival, and Carcel, despite his initial behavior, is shown as someone who learns and grows over time. so I really don’t think it's fair to turn this into a morality contest between the two. they're both flawed, but that’s what makes their love story beautiful. it’s not about who is the better person, but about how they learn to grow together. that’s why I believe this story is more than just a comparison of who’s right or wrong, it’s about how love allows people to change and heal.

still, I respect that novel readers have a different perspective tho, and I understand that you may prefer the depth of the novel more. but dismissing the manhwa as having 'ruined' the story disregards the experience of readers who only have access to this version. the story is being told differently, but it’s still meaningful in its own way. and for manhwa readers, the unfolding of the characters’ journey still feels impactful, even if some details were... well, adjusted.

and though I've said all that, I just genuinely love both Ines and Carcel. they're complex characters who make mistakes. they're not perfect, but I see both their strengths and weaknesses. so, I really don't want to dive into a perspective that undermines one over the other. their journey together is what makes the story so special to me, and I think both of them have their own unique path of growth and redemption that we may have yet to be seen. I believe it’s about understanding and embracing both sides of their characters, without diminishing either. I just really believe that the one deserving of my hate(at least) is the crown prince...

Thank you everyone for helping me out I Still have some negative feelings for Carcel but well..

Thanks again for this productive and gentlemanly discussion it is truly worth it

How is this not a discussion about morality when readers are complaining that Carcel is trash because of his premarital lifestyle. This is exactly why I brought up morality because they are judging Carcel as ‘bad’ solely based on his actions while judging Ines as ‘good’ based on her trauma card despite her questionable behavior and motives.

So, a teenage boy who wanted to court his fiancé visited her repeatedly and she rejected him. (Even Oscar was treated better during the timeline he married her) That teenage boy intuitively began to understand his fiancée didn’t give a damn about him, felt hurt and rebelled by sleeping with another girl. Then from there he decided he didn’t give a damn about a girl that didn’t care about him (which is true..his mother even noticed it and brought it up in the manhwa but I’m sure the majority of manhwa readers didn’t care and promptly forgot it) and decided to live his life like most Ortegans in noble society. He doesn’t harm anybody nor does his fiancée give a crap about what he’s doing or how he’s living but because he lived like that, he is forever trashed by manhwa readers even though he wasn’t motivated by malice towards his uncaring fiancée.

Yes, Carcel is flawed because no one is perfect but he was always in essence a good person. Ines even said he would never ruin any of the lives of the women he dealt with before they married. Yes, Ines Escalante said this in her thoughts after church in the novel. This is when she was still trying to get Carcel to cheat and she acknowledged Carcel was very careful and set boundaries to not ruin anybody’s life. In other words, he had principles and never overstep them. It showed that even before he married her, he was the kind of person who didn’t want to harm anyone especially a woman.

Please provide an example in the manhwa that shows Ines has changed Carcel. As the author said, her story is to show that they are meant to be together and they’re a perfect couple who fill in each other’s imperfections. As a novel reader, I know exactly what the author means. You said their story is not about who is a better person and I agree even though we weren’t talking about them as a couple but as individuals whom manhwa readers lift up on the one hand and tear down on the other hand. Them as a couple wasn’t even the topic to begin with. But since you brought them up, tell me what a good job the manhwa is doing by showing how Ines changed Carcel. At least I know Carcel is changing Ines in so many scenes but please enlighten me where Ines has been changing Carcel for the better.

you're right, morality is already a part of the conversation, but my point is how their story isn't meant to be a moral competition between them. I get that the double standards exist, and that it's frustrating(I've explained my take in this before, but it kept getting brought up, unfortunately). but at the same time, the story itself isn't even about proving who's the better person between them, is it? it's how both of them, flawed as they are, grow together. that's why I don't want to approach it as a debate over who wins in terms of morality, ratger I look at it as how their past shape them and their relationship.

it honestly feels like my points keep getting overlooked because the focus is only on the parts that fit a specific narrative. I've been consistent in explaining my perspective as a manwha adaptation reader, yet instead of engaging with that, there's a repeated push to frame my argument in a way that suits the idea that Ines is beyond redemption. if the intent is to hate Ines, then of course, nothing I say will never make sense to you because we're coming from completely different mindsets.

and look at you, justifying infidelity as rebellion against rejection? please, he still chose that path. that doesn't remove personal responsibility. even if he was hurt, his actions wasn't forced onto him. not harming anyone doesn't mean his actions were good, just that they weren't intentionally cruel. being a "good person" overall doesn't negate the fact that he engaged in a behavior that readers find problematic. "always a good person" contradicts the idea that he had flaws and room for growth, tbh.

you lean to much on excusing Carcel's choices while expecting me/us to criticize Ines more harshly. I wasn't trying to shift the conversation to their relationship as a couple. I just wanted to highlight the fact that their dynamic is one of mutual change ratger than one-sided growth.

you exaggerate my point to suit your claim. I never meant to say that Ines changed Carcel for the better outright. what I meant is that Ines (may) also influence change in Carcel, even if it's subtle. just because it's not as obvious to you as Carcel helping Ines heal, that doesn't make it nonexistent. growth doesn't always have to be dramatic, it doesn't always need to be directly implied. growth can be found in small shifts in behavior, perspective, and even emotional connection. influence doesn't have to be loud just for it to be real.

and please do consider that most of the readers who calls Carcel "trash" could be someone who probably hasn't even reached chapter 20. just because they called him trash from their manhwa-reader perspective, doesn't mean all manhwa readers feel that way. maybe we did, but we know more about Carcel now to call him trash because we have progressed with the story. where in this argument did I ever call him a trash in present tense? none, cause I already believe otherwise. and this is what I'm trying to say. you claim the adaptation to be biased, why, because more readers hate Carcel ratger than Ines? please note that comments under this manhwa here are often made real-time, and does not indicate where they are in the story.

did anyone ever said that Ines is a "good person" outright? probably, no. but did anyone ever explained why Ines is the way she is? yes, because of the context. which you adamantly dismiss because trauma doesn't sound valid to you.

It’s truly so telling and blatant how you justified everything Ines did through the lens of her trauma saying how much you understand why she did what she did even though you can understand objectively that she did wrong but she deserves compassion and understanding. That is effectively what you have been saying as though her trauma washes away her sins. Then when it comes to Carcel, there is absolutely no understanding but just blame and accusation that I am justifying his bad behavior. I tried to explain what any teenage boy now and back then would feel in the situation and it was already explained in the story itself. But no….none of you readers can understand his behavior so you only condemn him and accuse him.

This is exactly why novel readers know there are only one or two manhwa fans who like Carcel or understand Carcel for himself. They just like Carcel maybe because the manhwa portrays him as Ines’s simp dog. Thank you so much for proving our point. Furthermore, it is not that I didn’t understand or agree with some of your points. It’s not that I blame Ines for all of her bad choices but I used them to show exactly what you proved. She is lifted up by manhwa readers as good and NEVER held accountable for anything just like your long paragraphs prove. As a matter of fact, i highly doubt you thought that she needs to redeem herself like Carcel. A woman who has been plotting against him for 17 years, after all, is unaccountable in the eyes of manhwa readers because her trauma, her desperation, her holy motives… You name it, Ines is excused for it because she has no malice in her heart they say. Wow. Talk about no accountability whatsoever. Spoken like true inveterate fans of Ines that frames all her bad actions under understanding why she behaves that way, why she needs compassion and therefore exonerates her of any accountability and wrongdoing. I would say the manhwa is doing such a great job of excusing her when the novel held her accountable for her actions.

No, there are many readers like the one who started this post who claim they cannot forgive Carcel for his premarital lifestyle. Some of your comments suggest you also can relate to them. No need to pretend. I read comments and I see them all the time. Couple novel readers and I do discuss some of the comments on here and we often agree that there is only maybe three TRUE Carcel fans here. There is one I look out for all the time because she often asks questions about Carcel as a person without Ines. The rest we can see only likes Carcel as a simp that the manhwa has made him into rather than the three-dimensional man the novel portrays.

Indeed the manhwa is biased. Even the novel author, Kim ChaCha acknowledged it:

Hello Fan:

I fully understand what you mean.

But cartoons have limited scenes. That's what might be included.

Perhaps that's why, unlike the novel, Ines' selfish purpose was not emphasized. I am also sad that only carcel has become a bad character unilaterally.

I think they're both flawed people, and they're both bad people. To each other. They are selfish in different ways. Even when they were young, Ines overwhelmingly did. In the past life, too.

So in the early days when the novel was serialized, Ines was also criticized a lot. If carcel is the man who betrayed his fiancee her, Ines is the woman who used her young fiance.

I think that the two main characters are both imperfect people. And I think they are a perfect couple who can fill in each other's imperfections. No matter who blames them, each other is the best option for them. The journey to show it was my novel.

Your words:

I think about how Carcel said in one of their banters before marriage that he'll leave his debauched lifestyle once they're married. and he kept his word. we aren't excusing infidelity here, Carcel was a trash.

————

Right, you said Carcel was trash which is not surprising from a person who has zero understanding of his feelings but writes long paragraphs about understanding Ines who similarly dubcon a complete stranger while very much engaged and set to marry soon. Apparently girls in desperation only have ONE resort/escape and it’s to get on top of a stranger’s genitalia. Seems only a few girls would think of running away on their own or with a loyal and trustworthy maid. But that’s okay because manhwa readers understand Ines had no malice in her heart and only desperation so she deserves their compassionate understanding. Spoken like true Ines fans.

Somehow I feel vindicated. There are so few true Carcel fans and true Ines/Carcel fans for the manhwa but so many of them for the novel. They already quit this manhwa after some even boldly tweeted the manhwa storyteller about her biased adaptation. So all the manhwa have left now are Ines simps or fans who like that she has a simp dog who would do anything for her. It’s really pretty sad to see as a novel reader.

Regarding influence, she’s always testing him and she is always the hardest on him. Imagine that. Even harder on him than Oscar. Maybe that’s why some novel readers come to vent on BR novel forums after they finish reading the story and start a debate that Ines doesnt deserve Carcel. Some of those readers also had a problem with the fact that Carcel only loved Ines in this story while she fell for two other men. Novel readers see and know everything about the respective characters because we know their thoughts. Koreans even complained that the author leaves no room for imagination because of this.

So, yes, Ines does influence Carcel but not necessarily in the right way until she herself began to change to become a better person because of Carcel’s influence. Novel has that early in this life, she was lovebombing him to scare him off as a little boy. Then when he didn’t scare anymore because he was a bit older, she employed different tactics to prevent him from falling for her. She gladly wore black clothes to worsen her reputation solely with the purpose that other young nobles should remind Carcel that he’s too good for her and he should seek love elsewhere. Yes, homegirl had this whole elaborate plan going just so Carcel wouldn’t fall for her. But her fans will definitely justify her through the lens of her trauma. Oh boy so it’s even pointless to know this for fans who justify her in everything. Well, just keep reading the story through lens that justify everything she did in the past, present and future.

To Ines’s inveterate fans who has great compassion and understanding for her and justifies everything she does, here is preview of the scheme she employed against trashy Carcel from the time he was potentially a trashy young kid until he bloomed into the trashy teenager she always hoped for to garner a trashy husband for her divorce plans which she discussed as a 12 year old girl with lawyers who visited Perez:

———————————-

She had been scheming to get Cárcel to cheat on her for her whole lifetime. She downplayed her attractiveness by wearing black dresses. When others remarked that only women who were “mourning, living as a nun, or had become clinically insane” would wear black dresses, she smirked in delight. She matched the drab frocks with boring buns or braids.

She had kept this disinterested and uninteresting identity in front of everyone not just Cárcel. The whole world needed to remind Cárcel that she was never enough for him. She needed to ensure that he would not have a sudden change of heart one day. She did not want him to ever be intrigued by her even for a split second.

Inés had grown a sizable ego from her past experiences. She worried that Cárcel would fall for her at least once in their long relationship. To hide her charms and her decent face, she needed to be careful to choose the least attractive outfits and avoid all makeup. Once she stripped naked, she wouldn’t be able to hide behind the ugly clothes though. A sigh escaped her throat at the mere thought.

Thus, she resolved to be extra careful. She had to keep associating herself with all the boring and ugly things in his mind. She would continue to exhaust him with her suffocating attitude, gaze and outfit. Back when he feared her the most, she sent him an overwhelming amount of presents and letters to scare him off. He didn’t panic immediately as she expected. Still, she did manage to send him off to military academy and navy army in fear of marriage.

Inés would eventually have to marry into his family even if he tried to ignore her for many years. Their betrothal was inevitable — no wonder he was stricken with fear. Inés wanted to seize this chance and get him to be so stressed about their imminent marriage that he had no choice but to cheat on her when they did marry.

Until their marriage ceremony, she planned to make him feel less guilty about cheating.

you keep insisting that I 'justify' Ines while 'condemning' Carcel, but if you actually read what I said, you'd realize I've been consistent in my stance toward both characters. I acknowledged that Ines has made questionable decisions and that her trauma only explains her actions, it does not excuse them. the difference is that the manhwa itself chooses to emphasize different aspects of each character's flaws. if Ines' internal monologues and selfishness were more present, I would fully acknowledge them. but they aren't. that's not on me.

you accuse me of not applying understanding to Carcel, but I never said he didn't deserve it. I literally said I/we recognized his change and accepted him as he is, but that doesn't mean his past is automatically justified. you want me to acknowledge that his behavior was natural for a teenage boy, sure, I hear you. but then apply that same logic to the 16-year-old Ines, who had just woken up from a horrific past life and ran to the first person who could take her away from the same fate. you're upset that people struggle to forgive Carcel for cheating, but at the same time, you want us to endlessly condemn Ines for her past decisions. make it make sense.

"manhwa readers never hold Ines accountable"really? if anything, manhwa readers are waiting for her atonement and her realization of her own faults(well, at least I am). the difference is that I see it as a natural progression, not something that needs to be immediately forced onto her character. saying she hasn't been 'held accountable' yet isn't the same as saying she never will be.

and about this so-called 'three true Carcel fans' comment lol it's telling that you think people only 'truly' like Carcel if they only care about him as an individual. this story isn't just about Carcel. it's about both him and Ines, and people are allowed to appreciate him as part of that dynamic. the fact that you believe novel readers have some superior understanding of his character just because they had more of his individual perspective is exactly the kind of elitism that makes these discussions frustrating. you claim to respect both characters, yet dismiss anyone who enjoys Carcel's character without hating Ines, bfr.

regarding the author's comments. yes, they acknowledged that the manhwa doesn't emphasize Ines' selfishness as much. but even in that very statement, they make it clear that both characters are flawed, selfish, and deeply imperfect. they don't paint Carcel as some tragic victim of misrepresentation, nor do they frame Ines as a saint. what they highlight is that the manhwa had to make adaptation choices due to limited space. that's not proof of 'bias,' that's just the reality of storytelling constraints. you act like this quote is some kind of 'gotcha' moment, but all it really does is reinforce what I've been saying all along. the way the story is framed changes how readers perceive the characters. that's not the same as fans blindly excusing Ines and condemning Carcel.

what I see is that you seem more interested in proving that manhwa fans are incapable of understanding Carcel than actually engaging with what we're saying. but if you're going to argue about accountability, make sure you apply it evenly. if Carcel deserves patience and understanding for his flaws, so does Ines. if the manhwa made adaptation choices that affect perception, that's a discussion, not evidence of malicious intent. and if your only definition of a 'true Carcel fan' is someone who ignores Ines completely... well, that says more about your bias than mine.

and you know, it's honestly baffling that you keep going on about the novel, especially when I've been consistently clear that I'm speaking as a manhwa reader. it's like you're completely disregarding my point of view and trying to drag this into a debate I never signed up for. I don't care about your novel-based arguments because I'm talking about how the manhwa is framed. you act like I'm some Ines "simp," but I've acknowledged her flaws more than enough, what I'm not doing is excusing her actions based on your interpretation of them.

the fact that you're ignoring that the manhwa frames things differently is a clear attempt to discredit my stance. if you want to drag Ines down for every single decision, that's on you, but don't act like the manhwa is giving me a full picture to do the same. I don't see her as perfect, and I've never claimed that. but you're too busy hating on her for everything, and that's just plain exhausting. why don't you try acknowledging that maybe, just maybe, your hatred for Ines is clouding your view of the bigger picture?

I get it, you're stuck on the novel's portrayal of her, but guess what? it's not the same thing. the manhwa shows her flaws, but it doesn't go as deep into her psychology, and that changes everything. so don't try to force the same judgment I should apply to a version of her that doesn't even exist in the manhwa. you've got a vendetta against her, and it's clear you're using every excuse to twist her actions into something worse than they are. I see right through that.

and if I have to be like you just to be considered as a 'true fan,' I don't want it. I am entitled to have a nuanced perspective that recognizes the complexity of both Ines and Carcel, regardless of what others try to label me.

Even if just the manhwa alone, I wouldn't call him cheating or "an abomination" because if he was forced to an engagement he doesn't want and can't get out of and had tried to get close to her before but she's the one who kept turning her away, then he has every right to do whatever he wants. People always excuse the fls. They say the same about Serena before how she can do whatever she want with Friedrick because she was forced to marry someone. Carcel got more reason to do whatever he wants when the person who ppl keep saying he cheated on was Ines the person who manipulated him and wanted him to sleep around so it's cheating if the partner you're forced to be with wants and lets you sleep around now?

You haven't acknowledged her flaws at all. Ppl like you think of her trauma as her flaws so they use her flaws as an excuse for her actions instead. They nvr blamed her for forcing the engagement on Carcel even when he never wanted it. They say why can't Carcel cancel the engagement then but didn't even know that the empress was the one who put them together so that's like going against the empress and his parents and family couldn't, and also like Ines was the one using the empress to force it on Carcel but no one mentioned that either. They never blamed her for turning him away when he tried to get close. Instead they say he should try harder bc she was traumatized and sick at that time, but he doesn't know that so why should he have to be put in the position to try harder to get closer?

So true. Readers are the one who care more about Carcel's premarital lifestyle than Ines ever will and readers are also the one who pretend to know Ines and go boohoo I feel so bad for you for having such a trashy fiancee who cheated on you while Ines is like OMG PLS CHEAT SLEEP AROUND ALRDY!

please, don't make me laugh. you're bending definitions to suit your stance. you're telling me that he wasn't cheating because he was "forced" into the engagement and because Ines "let him" sleep around? do you even hear yourself? if your logic is that being forced into a relationship means you can sleep with other people, then why is Ines' behavior in her past life unacceptable to you? and before you assume, I'm not claiming her innocent at all. okay, so Carcel tried to get close, yes, but you're acting like he was some tragic victim when he chose to move on by sleeping around. he wasn't forced to do anything. he made a decision. just like how Ines made decisions(ones that you refuse to see as anything but pure manipulation even though her pain is laid out in front of you). their difference? you want the guy excused, and the woman accountable.

'people like me'? like what? tell me. you want me to acknowledge Ines' flaws? sure. she manipulated the situation to secure the engagement, manipulated Carcel, and intentionally tried to push him away. I never denied that, but consider the fact that she's yet to acknowledge them herself, what she does when she does is up for discussion, but not right now. don't even try to come at me with your full list of evil things she's done in the novel. I acknowledged it, I just didn't criticize her the way you want me to. and no, ffs, do you think of other people's trauma as their flaw? when did I ever suggest that? like what I've been saying, trauma is the cause, the context, the explanation why we are so patient with her, not why she's free of accountability.

I won't even get into details of this engagement fiasco, I just know that Ines may have manipulated the situation, she did not force anything. the power ultimately lies with the empress, if she did truly forced it, then Carcel and his family wouldn't have been that powerless against it.

sorry, not sorry, but I'm through with you, 'true carcel fans'. think what you want. I'm so done explaining myself to people who are dead set on arguing while refusing to actually listen. if you really want us to 'change' our perception of Carcel's premarital lifestyle, at least make a convincing case instead of just twisting our words. ffs, calling him an 'abomination' and 'trash' is in past tense because I was talking about a guy who was caught 'CHEATING', to when he was 'CHEATING.' Idfk how you can't understand that CHEATING is a big deal irl, and especially in fiction. oh, don't even get me started with Ines' crimes here. the cheating scene came at the very first episode, and comments here as I've said, are made in real time, which I've taken into consideration before responding. I merely exaggerated my words, because I never thought I would be pulled in this kind of argument at all. Carcel extremists

His actions is based on her action. Would he have been called a cheater if she didn't forced him into an engagement? He would've just been called a playboy just like every other lives that she thought she knew him and that would've been no issue. She knew him as a playboy from previous lives. She chose him specifically bc of that. She manipulated him to act that way bc of her own wrong assumptions of him. She made decisions without thinking about others just as he made his own decision without thinking about others but you are claiming her innocence instead of his. You think her reasoning for her actions is better than his reason so you don't think she did any wrong.

Ines knows the empress well. She knew the empress would enforce it. You put the blame on the empress for enforcing it but it was Ines who was behind it. She told her father she wanted to marry Carcel. She didn't tell her father that without any thought. Ines always knew the empress wanted her family's power. The empress is Carcel's aunt. The empress also hated Ines as a daughter in law and nvr wanted her to marry her own son Oscar but she would gladly marry Ines to Carcel to bind their family together. Ines knew all that. She used the empress to enforce it on their families and Carcel. Carcel's family is powerless bc the emperor is always untrustful of their family. He married the empress but don't trust her family. He's always testing them and later you'll see that more when Miguel's own fiancee dies and empress tried to force Miguel to marry her stepdaughter and Carcel will be forced to go to war just to prove his family's loyalty to the throne so that Miguel don't have to marry the stepdaughter. His family don't have that much power against the royal family.

You think cheating is a big deal irl but if Ines exist irl she wouldn't even think of Carcel's action as cheating. You ppl always like to put thoughts and insert yourself into fictional relationships but not even thinking about the characters and the stories' situation. Was Ines hurt by Carcel's action? Did Ines think of it as cheating? Did she even care if he slept around? You think he was "caught cheating?" She purposely went there to pretend she caught him so that she can make him feel guilty and rush their marriage.

This was from the novel https://www.novelupdatesforum.com/posts/7038672/

At a time when he was frightened of her for a long time, Inés had spent a few years sending extreme love letters and gifts to the point where he was terrified. She made him overwhelmed by the pressure so he would run away and spread their distance on his own. (She lovebombed him.)

In those days, Cárcel did not run away as easily as she thought, but it was clear that there had been some progress. Eventually later on, she was afraid of getting married, and she made him go circles when he was in the military academy and the navy. (He did tried to get close to her and she made him run in circles.)

Nevertheless, the more inevitable time had arrived, and his fiancée, whom Cárcel Escalante was said to be ‘negligent’ with would finally enter the Escalante household. It couldn’t help but be fearful for him.

Nevertheless, at the beginning, she would hardly be able to do anything else. So she was willing to release the reins in advance. She intended to make him feel guilty as much as possible. Because they had to get married, and he had to have an affair. (She was purposely there in Prologue to make him feel guilty to rush the marriage.)

Cárcel Escalante would be under so much stress that he had finally gotten married to someone whose marriage he had been postponing, thus of course he had to have an affair.

LMAO HAHAHAHAHA a wise man once said, "cheating isn't cheating if the 'victim' doesn't care." what a wild take. by that logic, stealing isn't stealing if the owner has enough money. you're bending reality to excuse Carcel while blaming Ines for everything. the mental gymnastics are crazy. anyway, have fun with your echo chamber.

you've really proven my point. it's honestly impressive how confidently you argue while completely missing the point. you twist words, contradict yourself, and move goalposts. I'd break it down for you again, but seeing as you struggle with basic comprehension is already exhausting. if this is the best you've got, I'd just be wasting my time. enjoy twisting reality to fit your narrative. must be nice living in a world where logic doesn't apply.

C'mon didn't you read the comments?? I already thanked the previous commenters for helping me out by clearing my issue and keeping the conversation clean..
Go and read the comments...
I thanked them for behaving like humans and helping me out .
Not like you..

may I remind you that you started this all with your shady comment? so let's not act like you were just here for a 'clean' conversation, okay? and if being 'human' means dodging the argument while throwing passive-aggressive remarks, well you actually nailed it. but don't act like calling out flawed logic makes someone less human. if you actually understood what's being discussed, you'd realize this was never about you in the first place.

To the Snapplecider, Ines simps only condemn cheating when she’s not the one doing it. There’s a prevailing phenomenon in the BR manhwa fandom where Ines simps excuse her and sympathize with everything she does because trauma means a person should be able to walk all over another person so even when she cheated when she didn’t need to, they understand with a big heart. Conversely, they easily villainize Carcel because he supposedly cheated on a woman who wanted him to cheat, who spent 17 years trying to get him to cheat even after marriage and who he wasn’t in a romantic or even proper relationship with. I’m somehow reminded of that tweet on Twitter, ‘Oh, you have trauma? Feel free to treat me bad’. Spare yourself the trouble because your points about Ines will never register with her simps.

Also, I really wish Ines’s fans would leave Carcel’s defense to readers who actually understand him and his actions. Most of them can’t even tell anyone anything about Carcel except how he simps for Ines. They don’t even know nor understand his personality pretty much like even the manhwa team doesn’t understand him. It’s clear manhwa team is only following the novel story via events rather than investing in the depth of his character like the novel does so by time Ines changes, they won’t even understand the depth nor impact of her change.

Hahahaha

They're not even her rl simps. They're rly painter simps. I would nvr put them as rl Ines simps when they don't even know her well.

True. There are those kinds of simps too.

A rl Ines simp and fan will be happy for her growth and know that painter was not enough for her. He couldn't heal her and she wasn't happy with him either. I don't hate painter but if ppl think he's the best for her, they don't know the story. Simple as that. Maybe painter is good for his fans but not for Ines.

Jajajajaja

Painter simps make him look bad too when he's a good guy and even like Carcel in the story smh

Aww look at you talking to your alt. Please continue this hatred this misery. Soon you'll kill yourself. Make it a competition, if you kill yourself before I do, then you'll get a reward :)

How do u turn off notifications for a post u commented on its been like 3 month ffs

Is there a novel?

WHAT
I mean I kinda expected it
But I hoped it would be the shadow person who she meets in the white space, considering they experience the same kinda thing

YAYYY!!!

well, it's the same dude

WHAT

በዚህ መተግበሪያ ውስጥ ሪፖርት እንዳይደረግ ወይም እንዳይታገድ ይህንን ይጠቀሙ stfu before I rape you and deport you nigger