Allow me to clear up some details.
National and international copyright laws prohibit the public display of altered or unaltered copyrighted material. Period. These brave scanlation groups risk harassment, personal and public internet accounts being suspended or revoked, internet service privileges being suspended or revoked, civil lawsuits, and criminal prosecution to bring all of us the manga we love. Every time they upload, they take that risk. Groups that "get away with it" have either been simply lucky and flown under the legal radar, or have felt the brunt of their choices at great cost and continued regardless.
Licensing is a sub-division of copyright. The license holder pays upfront to purchase the "right to sell copyright material" from the original publisher. They can alter the material (translation) only with the permission and approval of the original publisher and artist. They make back the purchase price plus profit through sales of the materials.
This site boasts 10, 000 registered readers. If each "member" reads one, one volume manga for free, at an average cover price of $14.99, the publishers and artists, as a group, lose $149, 900.00. Most members read multiple volumes of multiple manga. This does not even take into account the non-registered members. The lost profits overall for the manga industry are astronomical - just for this site. Consider the number of free manga sites out there and astronomical becomes incalculable. One artist may lose "a few dollars", but the industry, as a whole, loses far more to "free advertising".
I'm not providing an opinion as to whether "free manga" sites are right or wrong. I am a registered member here with over 1350 manga read. It is not my place to make this determination. I am simply providing facts and information. My only opinion is that people should have information, so they can make informed choices.
What details are you trying to clear up?
If you have read some of the other comments ... this manga has been licensed and the scan group has been asked to stop translating - but may are complaining about this - so @Mameiha is just letting people know why the scan group has stopped.
Yeah sucks. But it's for the best.
Scanlated or not, I still won't be a customer. Not because I'm just that kind of person. But because about time it hits the USA, I would have forgotten about it already.
Well, there you have it. Thanks for sharing.
Thank you dear. How have you been? Drop me a mail when you get a second. I want to discuss this licensing situation with you. Okay?
You reasoning about loss sales makes three assumptions. (1) that everyone who reads a scanned manga online would have bought that manga if it were not available on line, (2) that people who read for free do not buy material once they become fans and (3) that any "lost sales" are not offset by the value of promoting the manga and making it popular so that more people will be willing to by it.
I agree that people deserve to be paid. I think the belief that scans mean lost sales is based on fear and not facts. The publishers' marketing decisions are up to them, but I do not believe that scans mean lost sales.
1) of course not
2) of course yes
3) you have no facts there, either
Well, I don't know of any studies specific to manga, but there are studies showing that people who download music illegally are also the people who buy the most music.
http://www.metalinjection.net/latest-news/study-shows-illegal-downloaders-purchase-the-most-music-legally
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/22/music-pirates-study_n_2526417.html
This is also true of movies.
https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110721/04092915191/industry-suppressed-report-showing-users-shuttered-pirate-site-probably-helped-movie-industry.shtml
And even if they do not buy themselves (or at least not everything they read) they provide publicity and make the work more popular.
I understand the copyright industry and its promoters have paid for studies that show the opposite, but such sources have been caught purposefully misrepresenting their results, so to me they lack credibility.
http://www.cato.org/blog/how-copyright-industries-con-congress
Of course, this does not change the law. I am just saying there is evidence that the people who read for free may (1) buy what they like and (2) promote what they like.
Marketing strategy is based on PSM (potential sales made) vs. PSL (potential sales lost). PSM and PSL are calculated on assumptions. So, yes, I am making assumptions. I am making the same assumptions publishing company marketing and sales departments make about PSL every time they put out a manga. In marketing and sales, a lost sale is equivalent to an outlay of cash. Each lost sale is money paid by the publisher to the artist, the raw materials, supplier, the printer, the publishing staff, etc. with no return. Every reader of every free scan has consumed the publishers product without purchase - this is a lost sale. Just because the product is intangible, does not make this fact any less true. Because of this, the ASL (actual sales lost) far outweighs the any PSM.
My comment was meant to highlight that what is considered "free advertising" is not free to the publisher.
The problem is in how you define "lost sales" and whether you give full and accurate credit for potential sales made due to the online promotion. It seems likely to me that the fans who read online for free are likely to buy the manga they like the most, and likely to spread the word about Yoai to others, at the very least promoting the genre and the manga. It may not be entirely "free" to the publisher (but neither is most marketing). I have no legal right to force a particular marketing strategy on anyone. I am just saying there is no credible evidence that online sharing actually results in lost sales that are greater than the increase potential sales due to the exposure.
You look at the registered users and count each one as "lost sales"--this is not necessarily true. You could look at the users and see "potential sales" but you would have to allow that some people will buy what they read for free if they like it. You would also have to allow for some people to read and not buy. I would be as if people could go to Barns and Nobel, sit in a chair and read for free, and only buy what they want to take home. You could go to the bookstore, call everyone reading there thieves and kick them out, requiring people to pat for the books before they look at them--but I think sales would actually go down.
Look, I'm not going to debate fact against hopes and dreams. Take some courses on marketing and sales, read about copyright law and then get back to me. Because you're not getting this.
I read here too, A LOT. What I don't do, is hide behind false righteous indignation that what I am doing does not negatively effect the manga industry. I also don't try to justify my wrong actions by claiming that those actions HELP the manga industry. You shouldn't either.
Well you wont read 1350 mangas if it was for even 1 dollar, tbh I wouldn't even be interested in manga if it wasn't for these sites. Then again I'd buy some awesome mangas even if I read them for free like Totally captivated and 19 Days for example if I can afford them.
1 thing though. Without free Manga to read online, I won't even know it ever exist! But thanks to free Manga online, I discover all of this author's work. In my country most Mangas are forbidden. Even some shoujo manga, if shows 2 much of skin it's forbidden right away.
Just saying that the mayority won't even buy the authors work if didn't even know about them. But thanks to online Manga sites lots of people became fans and will buy it.
So I don't think by doing scanlating will drop sales. I'm sure lots of people who wanted to buy the Manga in the 1st place has start reading it for free. Like "Oh I want to buy that Manga,"
Here a question: "Why didn't they licence it since the beginning?" 'coz at 1st they didn't knew it will get popular. "How do they know it became popular?" 'coz I think they use Manga sites 2 see how popular a Manga is. Like "Oh this Manga got lots of ENGLISH readers, lets buy the rights of that Manga"
That is so great that you know about manga now. How many have you bought?
I have done both (marketing classes and classes on intellectual property), as well as a lot of research into Creative Commons licenses and free culture works. I simply disagree with the assumption that copyright infringement equals lost sales. Just because you think you have the facts, doesn't mean you have the facts.
If you have done as you say, you know that my argument is sound. The fact that YOU don't think copyright infringement means lost sales is irrelevant, the law and the publishers DO see copyright infringement as lost revenue. If a person is sued civilly or prosecuted criminally, damages awarded to the plaintiff (state or publisher) will be calculated based on the PSL and ASL as determined by the publisher and courts. Like it or not, it is what it is. I didn't write the law and I don't make decisions for publishers. Don't shoot the fucking messenger.
I am not blaming you. I have nothing against you. However, I disagree with what you cite as facts. The definitions of PSL and ASL used to create the data and the data analysis were both seriously flawed and therefore misleading at best. Th fact that the courts and politicians let it pass is no big surprise. Neither group is full of academic or economic experts.
People make money all the time with Creative Commons licenses and other open-culture models. Best-selling author Cassandra Clare posts her work for free on Wattpad, and her Mortal Instruments books still sell. Neil Gaiman put The Graveyard Book online for free, and it still sold (and won a few awards). The popular Cards Against Humanity game operates under a CC license, and shows that the "pay if you feel like it" model can work. Korean artist Miyoung Yi released her art with a CC license, and now she's lost all her money and is starving in a ditch. Just kidding. She doing fine and making a name for herself.
Law and court decisions are different from reliable economic data. Since we can not scientifically isolate and manipulate one economic factor in a real world setting, the data and analysis is subject to interpretation or manipulation. Copyright infringement is illegal and the courts enforced it. However, that is only proof that courts enforce the laws as written. Courts sometimes make errors. Look at all the people on death row who have been freed when they were cleared by DNA evidence. Why is it when some little person gets a huge jury verdict in his favor, people say, "The courts are crazy; those numbers are too large!", but when the courts awards ridiculous damages for copyright infringement, all of a sudden those numbers are supposed to be taken as sensible?
Let me clarify--I am not arguing that currant court rulings and many publishers see viewing something for free as a lost sale. You are 100% correct about that. I am saying that just because they say it doesn't mean it is true in real life. But don't take my word on it. Minecraft creator Markus Peterson says, "There is no such thing as a lost sale," and urges businesses to focus on attracting more sales rather than prosecuting imaginary potential lost sales. Minecraft's actual sales are still doing okay.
https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110303/02203613336/minecraft-creator-says-no-such-thing-as-lost-sale.shtml
Sorry to be so persistent. I have been a huge proponent of the CC and open culture models for a long time, and I champion it whenever the topic comes up. I know many people are afraid of losing money, so I want to make it clear that they may not actually lose money. I am not saying they have to listen to me, but on the off chance someone repeats something to someone who makes business choices about these things, I want to do anything I can anything I can do to encourage people to embrace and open business plan. Also, Harvard Law prof Lawrence Lessig has written a great deal about this before he started focusing on corruption in government, and I think more people should check him out .
Normally, I gladly share my opinion and views on any subject. This subject matter is exceedingly sensitive and I hesitate to inflame readers any more than I already have. However, since you have been kind enough to both apologize and share your views articulately and intelligently, I feel I should do the same. Sorry for being short and dismissive with you. This was not my only thread, my nerves wore thin and I took it out on you. I'm really sorry.
My opinion regarding free online reading is that it should flourish. I believe every form of literature, from comic books to classics, should be available at little or no cost to everyone. Literacy is still in decline. I don't mean "See Spot run" literacy. I mean the ability for individuals to read and comprehend at their age level. Fewer and fewer high school students are able to read and comprehend The Great Gatsby, Great Expectations, Grapes of Wrath and the like. Even current best-seller authors are writing with some of the worst grammar I've ever seen. The best way to combat this "illiteracy plague" is to show people how it's done correctly. Let them read voraciously. Their minds, opinions, ideas, vocabulary and ability to communicate effectively will grow and expand. I think the idea of a site akin to Netflix, where you can read as much as you want for a reasonable monthly fee, would be optimal for this goal. I don't personally disagree with your position. I just know that, right now, that's not the way things are...unfortunately. Changes must be made, readers and publishers must both do their part to make those changes happen.
Clarification: I never claimed PSL or ASL numbers were accurate or fair. I can't debate the fairness of CC regulations, Intellectual Property laws or Copyright Infringement awards with you, because we stand on the same side - I agree with you. My purpose through this entire thread has been to convey how free reading sites are viewed by the law and publishers. I simply wanted to show that, the way we view ourselves and our actions is not how we are viewed by the law and publishers. It was not my intention to portray their views as fair or unfair. Rather, my intention was to give information to readers and allow them to form their own opinion.
That's cool. You are absolutely correct about how the law, the RIAA, the MPAA and most publishers view the issue. I am just here to present the open business model options and suggest that fan sharing may not actually lead to economic loss for creators as many assume. Of course people can decide what makes the most sense for them. :)
You're welcomed :)
My fujoshi sisters and fudanshi brothers, take heart. SuBLime offers the digital download of volumes for approximately $6 per volume. Depending on how the manga is licensed, print versions can also be purchased and shipped or downloaded as a printable pdf file. They accept credit/debit cards and PayPal. I realize that this may not be within everyone's ability to purchase. For those who can, we should support this talented mangaka and this amazing manga. For those who cannot, please contact me here to discuss options for continuing to enjoy this manga. Use the mail feature to contact me privately rather than replying to this post. Thank you.
^^^ it's awesome when they provide a digital format. It's cheap and you can stash it in your secret folder.
And for those who want the hard copies, buy it from Book Depository!!!! The shipping is free (although it can take a while) so you don't have to worry about expensive shipping fee and I guarantee you, it arrives just safe. Even to countries who has sucky taxation administration (I lived in Indonesia, I know).
Don't be so cheap guys. Don't we all want sensei to produce amazing new works even after Ten Count? Let's support her in anyway we can!
And thank you so much for th scan team thus far. I will rely on you for summaries now and wait until 2016 for the graphic, steamy stuff (lol).
And how long does it take them to make the book available for purchase?
thanks for this info! I just wrote about hating when the manga is licensed in the USA, cause i'm from brasil and it means that I will never read the ending (cause brasil never works with yaoi manga). Thanks a lot!
im planning on buying them but im just upset that theyre not going to release it til august 2016
and then probably take another few months to release the next volumes if they dont drop it
its the wait thats going to kill me i dont mind buying it
I understand that it will be available in the fall of 2016
SuBLime is a fujoshi's friend!
Anything worth having, is worth waiting for. LOL
Well said. Often, licensed manga end up dropped by the licensing company when not enough copies are sold. If we want to see all of the Ten Count story, we need to buy the licensed versions. It may not be possible for everyone, but those who can, should support the mangaka and help keep this manga available.
Thanks. I'll try to remember. It's easier to keep up when you are looking for regular updates. I like the story, but I don't know what I'll be doing in a year. ;)
...for this manga. The story wasn't poorly written, the characters, themselves, weren't dull, the story premise was interesting... yet I kept finding myself uninterested in this story. The art conveyed passion between the MCs, but I never felt any with or for them. The "ending" in Ch. 4 felt rushed and left me cold. I don't like stories that involve gay men getting married (hetero) and having kids for "the sake of the family name" or "bloodlines" - too contrived and cliche. The reunion in Ch. 6 was sweet but still felt empty and passionless to me. I can't put my finger on exactly why I felt this way, but there it is. The second story had potential that seemed extinguished by a rush to the end. Both were good stories from a writing and art perspective, I just felt no connection with them. I'll likely try reading this again later to see if my feelings are the same.
Yeah I felt the same way and this is my second time reading this... maybe if it was longer it could have given what it was missing
I'm the same too Σ( ￣□￣||)
I felt that there was this big build up during the first chapters, only to be solved with a few lines of Tomoyuki narrating the whole ordeal and we don't even get to see a proper resolution. We just get told of it. It was rushed and anticlimactic and it pulls you out of the story and whatever comes later feels shallow and empty. We missed a big part of the story (maybe even the whole purpose of reading it) and with it our connection with the characters
You go Sakagou! You got serious game, dude. Men of the world, take note...THAT is how it's done. I haven't been this impressed by a fictional character in a loooong time.
...I'd tell Iori everything I'd been told and let him decide. He'd likely choose to die for me, so I'd grant his wish, then kill myself. If he chose to live, I'd leave and die quietly, knowing I'd fulfilled Iori's wish.
I don't put a lot of weight into living or dying. I believe our souls are eternal and our "lifespan" is one among thousands. Don't get me wrong, I'm not eager to die, but I don't fear it. My body may cease to exist, but "I" am eternal... I'll come back around this way again someday. Death is just the beginning of a new adventure. (⌒▽⌒)
Se lui vuole morire per me e io voglio morire per lui allora credo che la cosa migliore da fare sia morire insieme no ?!
That would be the best way to go. In each other's arms, taking the first step of that new adventure together.
Congenital Insensitivity to Pain is a real neurological disorder. Sufferers can feel pressure but no pain. If they "ripped out a nipple ring", they would feel a tug but nothing more. They can feel emotional pain, however, like disappointment; heartbreak and loss. In the second story of this manga, this is dramatized by the uke ripping out his nipple ring and feeling nothing, then feeling the first pangs of love. Thus, for the first time, he "feels" something. Physically, he is still unable to feel the sensations of sex, but because he now feels love, sex is pleasurable. This emphasizes the idea that "sex is better when you love your partner". I believe this is true. I don't believe that sex requires love, but it is DEFINITELY better with it. "Sex and love are not equal, but sex WITH love has no equal."
I didn't mean to disike! Σ(っ°Д °;)っ
Don't sweat it. I do that myself. Small screens are a bitch.
my worst fear (￣∇￣")
And no undo button (╯°Д °)╯╧╧
... the sense of connection between the protagonists and the feeling of completion with their relationship. The sex scenes felt cold and the ending was ambiguous, since Kazuhito(?) never admits to liking Morishita. The translation seemed a bit too formal, but only for Kazuhito - so it may have been intentional, to highlight how uptight he is. Overall, the story wasn't "bad", per se, but it wouldn't make my re-read list unless there was some kind of continuation done.
... had me asking, "What the hell did I just read?" Chapter 3 was as like watching a monkey f*ck a football - utterly ridiculous. The plot was... wait, was there a plot? The rest of the chapters were better written, but still not up to par with the main story. The kid having sex, or trying to, with his uncle - had the stupidest resolution since the "vision sequence" in Breaking Dawn Pt. 2. In short, the first two chapters deserved more of the mangaka's effort to finish. The rest should have been burned at the manuscript stage, so the time and energy could have been put toward the main story.
...the phrase the sensei in the second story kept repeating? "We'll continue this relationship until you graduate." That phrase tells me Aikawa is yesterdays news come graduation day and Sensei will move on to a new "student target". Aikawa should have chosen Shin. Granted, they'd have double the stigma (gay & incest) but who cares!! It's no one's business if two consenting adults sleep together. (When they become adults. LOL)
I was with shyn too... well they are brothers only on the paper ^^
Shin was a better choice, by far, in my opinion. Maybe in "yaoi-land" they hook up after graduation...I hope. (⌒▽⌒)
Yeah that phrase kept leaping out at me too I'm like really Sensei only til graduation then what bye bye i dont love you anymore i think Shin is the better choice
They were exactly my thoughts.....It would have been much more better if shin had been chosen....I think person wise shin's feelings sounded more sincere plus as you said Double the stigma so it really would been a wonderful win....Alas it didnt happen （￣へ￣）
I think he meant that they keap it secret till the uke graduates :)
actually, i understood it as "continue keeping it a secret relationship until you graduate." moreever, they even try not to be seen walking together in school to keep it like that and they both agreed on that setup too.
it's obvious that the uke only likes the brother as a little brother but not more than that and sensei genuinely likes the uke.
As in the first chapter of this story when they are in the infirmary the translation gets kind of weird. I just assumed that the sensei actually meant to keep the relationship a secret until he graduates. Besides, he says he has been in love with Aikawa two years prior and they have only a year left. If it were just a momentary fling, I don't think he would have chased after Aikawa for two years.
To be honest, as long as this didn't finished in a threesome (I got a scare around the second part) I was fine with either. Don't get me wrong. I like a good threesome. But with personalities and behaviours set in part one, a threesome would have felt out of place.
my thought about threesome ╮(￣▽￣)╭
which is why i don't really read it
Totally agree... its what i was getting too.. with it all
Bunny's masturbater looks like a Tenga Flip!! Hahaha That was awesome!
Hahaha... Someone knew what a "Tenga Flip" was/is. Whoever you are... *high five* LOL
LOL yes high five ε=ε=(ノ≧∇≦)ノ