ReviewRaptor's Topics (1018)

Eh kinda doubt it. The artist who did this one is hugely popular in both josei and terrible yaoi circles so she's playing to what makes her the most money. She just knows what she's good at. Classic case of don't hate the player, hate the game.

Oh, the game is definitely hate-able alright. No doubt! XD
I still find it strange so many good artists prefer money over having their name associated with actual, overall quality tho. That's honestly sad.

You can't judge them tho. It's so hard and too risky to try out new things especially there are so many competition

This isn't about judging as much as ppeople just not valuing having a good or respectable reputation just for the sake of money.

This good respectable reputation won't earn them money. Even if they earn one people still illegally read their work without paying

There's plenty and even higher pay in respectable stories tho. Basically any true popular comic or anime shows that. Smut work is just quicker money, that's about it. Which means someone doesn't care what their brand stands for if they choose to make art for literally the trahsiest of stories just because the pay is good (which, again, good stories provide as well).

The illegal aspect has nothing to do with this either. Because artists don't choose to be respectable artists or not just because their art could be illegally distributed at some point.

You kinda cooked with this ngl. There's plenty of unproblematic manhwa out there but eeeeeeverything is commodified so people don't rlly care about their public image. And why should they? Especially when the only manhwa that go mainstream are your average battle shounen/isekai types. Maybe if these publishing websites like lzn actually protected the authors and their work and paid them fairly, we'd see more creators taking a chance on a story they actually feel passionate about instead of the same yaoi slop 10 times in a row. But I can't even blame them for doing so because the industry is so broken.

I think that's actually two disctinctly different groups we would deal with then: one group being the ones that really do not care and just want to throw out whatever to get paid (aka dumb smut yaoi with shitty plots) and others who actually do not see a worth in trying because they are discouraged.

Lzn and co are precisely why I don't understand why some of these authors even bother with those companies to begin with tbh.
You could just as well try publishing on your own, given they do aparently jack all to really help except provide a platform (which literally any other established website provides already, no strings attached).

I wonder if it would be more beneficial for those that really want to try making a piece of passion, to just advertize themselves on TikTok, YT SHorts, Twitter, Intagram etc with snippets and provide links to their own homepage.
I know people are what I like to call 'click lazy' nowadays and only want ONE single website for everything, but it seems like the only option at this point. At least to cut out the shitty middlemen companies. :/

Respectfully, I have to totally disagree with the illegality bit. I know your entire hustle is reading stories for free here, but one of the biggest reasons why BL creators don't branch out more often is because no matter what you make, people online just see your work as a commodity that they are entitled to. Then you have to look at your bottom line. What makes easy and fast money like you said? Porn. And often porn with very forceful themes. You know Mingwa? The Jinx lady? Well, she wrote a mostly wholesome het story that wasn't teeming with abuse. And people just pirated that, too before immediately forgetting about it. I just can't agree with the mindset that "Nahh reuploading sites aren't the problem and I'm not part of that problem either. These manhwa authors are just freaks." I'm not saying everyone needs to pay for everything they consume, (i'm on mangago too, duh) but I think people have become so cynical about art that they don't see anything as a piece of hard work worth paying for. And that makes the artists/authors cynical as well.

Oh, and the reason lzhn and other sites like Webtoon that are super predatory still attract authors and artists is because of the market dominance. There really aren't super great alternatives. B0mtoon is where a lot of creators went after the mass lzhn exodus several years ago but their system is roughly the same. It's really hard to publish on your own site and try to make money as an independent artist. I cannot stress this enough. Even if you have the savvy to cobble together your own site that has transactions where people pay to buy chapters and support you, you might never break even. Lzhn should have been a site for indie creators to make shit they're passionate about but their horrible business practices have it looking like a total sweatshop. But since it's the most reliable way to get even a little visibility for an unknown artist, Korean creators will likely continue to use it, even at the expense of their physical health.

That only counts for webtoons and co, other types of comic crwators do not factor in illegal websites or such when they create something. They create what they know sells well or what they are passionate about. The part of the comic market doesn't only consist of people who make webtoons and are aware their platform is online only and there are illegal website stealing their stuff. I'm talking about the work they do as a whole, all countries and genres included, mainly the traditional, official comic artists who sell physical copies before they pop up online.
And what I was talking about is the fact they do not care about their name/brand being associated with shitty stories. Not just making quick money because they need to. Even people who need money are considering their options and what they become the face for. And if people just give away their talent for the absolute trashiest of stories, that is really just sad and strange.
Again, comic artists like webtoon creators might be a bit different to normal artists with values, but in general artists DO infact care that their works are associated with quality content, not just porn slop. But webtoon artists specifically seem to absolutely not care what their art is associated with. Which is odd since good artists usually have quite the ego, hence wanting only the best for themselves in terms of reputation. XD

It's definitely not easy to self-promote, that's true, but it could be managable. Especially if burnt creators would group together and maybe create their own, creator friendly, website for this sort of thing.
Another idea would be using other mediums to promote your work entirely; like a page flipping/clicking visual novel you sell on Steam. People LOVE those, you can give them previews and a description and they can purchase it via Steam itself.
From what little knowledge I do have about this sorta thing, coding a page flipping 'game' is fairly easy. Althought just selling a file is also an option I believe, since programs are also sold. Not just on Steam but other places. Hell, even Etsy would be a better option than Lzn to sell I think. Data sales are super easy on there. (〜￣△￣)〜

I really hope creators get a better alternative for what is currently out there.
Or just go to an actual comic company. Pretty sure they should provide better services than online companies who love to mess with people.

I think the demographic of people who are very particular about the purity of their image are mostly western creatives tbh. Because there is very different etiquette there as compared to the values EA consumers hold. In western fanbases and communities, if you make taboo/smutty content then it is seen as the "face" of your work. There are a lot of "clean" creators who have no choice but to maintain a sanitized brand image, even if they want to pursue different avenues. EA fan communities don't usually have such intense scruples but that doesn't mean that they don't contribute to the problem as well. They are also very preoccupied with the artist's "image" but it's contingent on personal preference as opposed to moral ones. There really isn't much of a difference between the "good, clean" artists and the "trashy" ones, like you say. I'm active in artist spaces online and even the lucrative, mainstream artists get freaky as fuck. It's moreso a matter of luck. Are you lucky enough to get published and to sell merchandise? Or are you just making vapid porn your heart isn't really in because it's all you can do? But piracy and the overall commodification of the labor of art is a problem for all artists, not just webtoon artists. And with the rise of AI, I think it's more likely we'll see more artists sell themselves into the content mill. In Lee Geumsan's case (the artist for this manhwa) I think her business strategy works perfectly fine because she's always worked under a pseudonym and is versatile in her discipline; able to make josei, gl, bl, hl, etc. And it's hard for female creatives in Korea because despite the huge "otaku" culture there, people frequently delegitimize woman-made work. And despite her not having any social media, she's still talented enough to be coveted by lots of authors. But I genuinely wish there was more market diversity.

No no, I really just mean eastern creators with all of this. Japanese mangaka and such. People are just actually putting in a thought what it means to have themselves associated with a comic who's only strong point is JUST the art, but the story itself is absolute garbage. Even smut creators among the easterners DO have values. It's just the flood of online webtoon creators that have flooded the market with 'carried by the art' comics, the story being absolutely worthless. That's why so many people make fun of it all by saying the comic is carried by the art. And if the art wasn't good, nobody would care to read it. XD
Usually artists have at least SOME value for themselves. Even those that are just for hire, they contemplate what exactly they will be associated with. But webtooners (let's call them) seem to have absolutely no values in that regard. They draw art for the trashiest of stories, absolutely not interested how worthless the writing is, how shitty the plot, etc..

I'm not saying btw that the 'clean' artists aren't capable of dirty art and such. I'm really just talking about the level of quality people provide art for. To me it's strange ther eis absolutely no regard for any quality except for the art. I know webtoon readers are somehow a bunch with little to no standards when it comes to what they consume (judging from all the overhyped 'good art, shitty story' comics, I mean), but SOME standard should at least be provided or be the norm from the creators' side. But it really isn't. We see this being the norm: Good artist makes art for the shittiest of stories filled with smut at every corner.
And THAT being the norm is a self-made problem by the webtooners. They saw it worked for one of them, then everybody mindlessly copied it and the teenage audience just looking for fap material (and no sense for good writing) bit it, hook, line and sinker. Going into the downward spiral of thinking THAT is peak content. Artists/creators see or notice this, and things repeat.

That's why I said in my post it's yet another one for the list. Because it goes by the same principle it seems. Or at least i do NOT expect this story to be good if we start off with a borderline psychotic seeming rapist that we all KNOW will be the endgame ML the MC will somehow 'fall in love with'. That's the definition of 'good art, shitty story' tbh. Tho i guess if people are just looking for pretty art to fap to this is supposedly peak content. Still sad tho in many ways if you ask me. ╥﹏╥

Btw, now that you mentioned it: I am SO not looking forward to seeing people actually use Ai to make webtoons. We both know someone will do it (or has already). That will be a mess i can definitely do without.

Honestly if we're playing it that way, it might not matter as much as you think, what sorts of content EA creators make. I feel like you're trying to draw a distinction between "webtoon creators" and "respectable creators" when there is no such line between them. I always default onto this one. Author of Blue Period: amazing writer with an amazing and poignant story that is professionally published with its own anime. She got her feet in the water by making Hypnosis Mic incest porn. (And honestly the only people who really gave a fuck about that were the english readers). Author of Given, great story that also has its own anime, she made porny hetalia doujin and haikyuu omegaverse dubcon mpreg doujin. Even if you make obscene content, you still have a chance to go "mainstream". I think the same can go for webtoon creators. Maybe then they can start working on some super deep, wholesome shit. But to be fair, the writing for this particular story isn't that bad. Yes, it is eroticized and graphic without needing to be most of the time, but it's a pretty straightforward story about two guys who hate each other and ruin each others lives built on a foundation of extreme male violence and their propensity for harm. Also, young teens absolutely should NOT have access to this story in any way. It's protected by b0mtoon by an age restriction that requires you prove you're an adult before reading. I totally blame the gold rush of piracy for so many children being able to see this stuff. As well as the slopification of certain genres. It'll only get worse once people start using AI to make their own crappy porn.

No, that's not the distinction I'm trying to make. It's the distinction between people who actually have any sort of value for quality and those that just throw out whatever makes them money. And webtooners as of late have shown there is a distinct difference between these groups. Hence the 'good art, shitty story'/'carried by art' comics we basically see overwhelm the market when it comes to the popular works.
'Respectable' only comes into play if other factors are given or not there. So it's really just the quality I'm focusing on and the value people place on actually producing a good product on ALL fronts, not just the art alone. Which sadly most of these webtoons go for lately.

But yes, agreed. Teens shoul not have access to any of the content we are talking about. But let's be honest: parents doing their job and monitoring what their kids do hasn't been a thing for ages. Even I got involved with BL content due to unsupervized internet access back in the day. XD And I honestly doubt the majority of readers actually is adults, especially what with so many drooling over a story that is really badly written. Or excusing really bad writing just because the art looks nice. That's something I associate more with a teen who doesn't know what factors make a comic good or not rather than an adult being just plain dumb (tho of course those are around as well).

I love the term 'slopification', I'll have to use that in the future. It's SO perfect! X'D
The other day I already saw someone advertize a comic on YouTube, forgot who it was tho. It was a comic on webtoon I think, of furry/werewolf critters in a medieval setting, going to war and all that jazz. And it was SO very obviously Ai generated, I was honestly sad this was even allowed onto webtoon. Each panel the dogs/wolves look different and you could tell Ai made many mistakes in crowded panels.
I can only imagine what messed up nonsense we'll get if someone tries to make smut content with Ai. 3 feet, 6 legs and 13 fingers will probably be a normal occurance in panels when they go at it all intertwined. (I hate that I can precisely picture this scene btw.)
Fingers crossed websites will actually implement rules against Ai content soon. That might at least help weed out the really sloppily made ones. ╮(￣▽￣)╭

No there isn't. The industry is massively saturated especially in BL not much space for creativity. Who are you reading from an illegal website to tell the artist to do what with their skill. Absolutely hypocrite and disgusting lol.
Toxic stories sell just look at the popular ones here almost all toxic.

There is, Naruto, Bleach and many shoujo works prove that just fine. XD And even many BL comics are wastly more popular or for longer simply because comics with an actual story and effort are valued more than fap material just filled with dumb, empty smut.

Reading illegally doesn't mean we cannot judge or critique people. I'm not sure who tells you this nonsense but this is NOT how any of this works.
And it's not hypocritical, this word has a set meaning that doesn't apply to any of this topic.

You have to remember btw that the things you find on these websites are NOT the true popular stories anyway. They are the hyped stuff that happens to get scanlated. There exist A LOT of other comics outside these illegal websites and webtoon websites that only publish online. And the vast majority is factually not toxic, it's just the trash that scanlation groups prefer picking up. And what scanlation groups provide is NOT the only stuff available on the market.

Why don't you just read another yaoi that suit your taste? instead of complaining about how this story goes. Girl just respect the author's decision 'cause this is their own art. Just read another story, there's so many here that have a good art and a good story better than this.

That is exactly what I'm doing tho.
Having a conversation about the ups and downs, positives and negatives of the market and some corners isn't forbidden tho. And that's all this post was/is, a conversation about an aspect of the market I/many people noticed. ╮(￣▽￣)╭

Okay, so you're basically saying "It's okay if they make unholy, ludicrously grotesque and problematic work, as long as there is some level of quality control put into the art"? I'm not saying I disagree, I just feel like we kinda weren't catching each others thoughts very well. My whole argument was that a lot of EA artists don't care too much about their public brand because it is completely possible to make a career while anonymous and find success in your niche. Not everyone has to attach their face to their work. Even ShindoL, a Canadian dude keeps his identity a secret due to the dubious nature of his work. But he still has found success in the hentai niche. The idea of a public image can be quite double-edged, because people pass a lot of harsh judgment on artists if they don't agree with their art or values. On the other hand, having a clean reputation helps you become available for the "mainstream". Nonetheless, it's still possible to beat the odds and be a successful artist. This is an example I don't like to use because obviously nobody should support this man, but Shadman (before he got arrested) was a hugely successful artist because he appealed to edgy gooners, pedos, and bigots. Despite the fact that his public image was filthier than a carnival port-a-potty. I suppose success is relative, in that way. Putting aside Shad and many of the other horrible artists out there, I don't think it's inherently wrong to make cheap porn and other low-effort shit. Nor do I think that if you become successful doing it, that delegitimizes your success when compared to people who found it another way. Maybe the artist who worked on this has truly just sold her soul to the craft and her career is very limited now, or she could be perfectly happy and successful. One thing we both 100% agree on is that we ought to diversify the manhwa scene a little more. I think there are a lot of stories that just haven't been told because there is no room on the market for them, which is very sad. I don't even have a problem with corny hentai shit existing, but it shouldn't be the only option for artists.

Also, to the other person, I do acknowledge that we are all on mangago: therefore we are hurting these artists indirectly. It is a simple fact and there is no refuting it. And I understand that may devalue some of what I said, because I am consuming so much of this art for free. I'm an adult, so I try to buy most of my manga and manhwa using official platforms. And I would encourage others to do the same if they're really invested in supporting the industry in a positive way. Although at the same time, there is no true end to piracy, and it is a necessary component in fandom culture, especially when you consider it as a repository for media that might otherwise be lost, or a way for underprivileged people to have access to certain art. But ultimately I do agree with and understand what you're saying in that people who are very critical of these works believe themselves to be entitled to them for free just...because. I dunno, I like to talk about shit on mangago but I also wouldn't mind if the site just exploded. It's done a lot of harm to the manga and manhwa industry as well as exposed a ton of children to pornography...it's wild.

No, that wasn't what I tried to say. I agree, we were probably not quite on the same page with things. XD
It's the STORY that should at least have some sort of quality to it. Not only the art. That's my main concern with seeing so many comics with exceptional art but literally no or trashy, nonsensical stories. As sad as it is; Jinx is a great example: While the story is infact really bad, it is well written in the sense of it actually trying to make sense with what it has and makes an effort to have the story be just as big a focus as the constant smut it throws at the readers. (While I hate the story, that is a factor to praise, oddly enough. besides Mingwah's constant back and forth of character developement, that is.)

I definitely get what you mean about the other artists and that making just empty smut can also pay the bills. That definitely works, otherwise we wouldn't have so many artists doing it. Not just comic artists, but Furry artists are also a good example.
It's really just the overwhelming constant of 'good art, bad story (if it even has one)' that I'm noticing and am honestly sad about. Because think about it; how much more success would all of these artists have if the products they created had a memorable story and not JUST good art and lots of sex? They would be even more successful than they already are, because the BL community seems to generally prefer detailed, coloured art nowadays. It's a missed opportunity for them to just sell themselves for the quick buck. And a missed opportunity for readers to have some really amazing, support-worthy comics to gush over.

All in all I don't disagree with the things you talked about, there is definitely truth to it all. If it sells well, you do you, as they say. I just always get sad when I see top tier art attached to stories that are the exact opposite of the quality/effort spectrum. ╥﹏╥

Thank you for coming to clarify! I have trouble reading tone sometimes and come off a little aggressive sometimes but I really appreciate hearing your thoughts. Totally agree with you on Jinx…Mingwa is an artistic genius but damn does that lady need a ghostwriter to do some of the work for her lol. (I have liked the recent updates more though). I feel like we both agree on a lot of stuff lol. I wanted to say that your perspective about oversaturation in the market and how it is a huge detriment to the thoughtfulness and overall integrity of a work is spot on. I do enjoy a lot of stories that have problematic elements to them, but I think they need to at least have something successful in the story for anyone to be invested. A lot of the dark romance manhwa these days is literally just fetish content. Which is cool, I guess, but you and I both clearly wish there were more stories with depth. For example, I love Warehouse. The team behind it put a LOT of thought and commitment into the story and fleshing out the characters. It wasn’t a perfect story, but it was one they clearly loved a lot and it showed. These days you can’t get a single “kidnapping” plot manhwa that doesn’t just jump straight into noncon fucking. I think the plot of this particular story is a really interesting idea, but because all of the contextual information is only available after you’ve slogged through a bunch of kinky torture, people don’t care about the overarching story. If I were to personally change two things in the manhwa, I’d spend more time in the MAIN STORY fleshing out the character’s psyches. Polnick/Fallnick writes Jiwook struggling with PTSD and depression as a result of what’s happened to him, but that’s only in the side stories . I think it needed to be more consistent. And secondly I would have gone into more depth about the main characters relationships with other people besides each other. There was so much promising shit with Jooyeon’s mom and the Lee brothers but all of that gets shoved to the side. But anyway, you’re totally right about this story and a lot of others having potential but the authors choosing to bloat the whole thing with porn instead of plot. It’s pretty bleak.

Also to be fair, Warehouse did technically jump into noncon fucking. But it was extremely PLOTTY noncon fucking.