Cleopatra's Topics (811)

people can respond in ugly ways when they have been hurt is what id say. im seeing tons of people talk about how theyre too old or the characters just irk them or whatever but i think what some people are missing is that this manga is not just a romance, its also a coming of age. being a teenager is hard and the growing pains are intense. for me though watching them struggle through that, making mistakes and learning rights from wrongs is what makes this manga and others like it so endearing. i dont agree with hananois actions at the beginning either, but he didnt know they were wrong yet. i will say it doesnt "get better fast" theres ups and downs but thats cause 1. drama is needed for manga plot lol and 2. real human emotional growth isnt linear either theres no equation you can memorise to figure out your life its truly trial and error

I mean, I'd say ofc some people are feeling a bit "too old" for a shoujo manga that's a bizarre critique to have imo, people in different walks of life and ages have different outlook on what they want in a romance, but I wouldn't say that's my issue. More like I know what these behaviours look like in real life and they always lead to unstable, dangerous situations that irreparably traumatize or hurt people. So unavoidably this is all I think when I see this dude act like that.

I am still gonna give it a shot after hearing what you said, the series sounds promising, but if he makes any suicide threats or something extreme of the like Im outta here man lol

I mean if you want spoilers. There is no "shrine" hananoi just knew hotaru when they were children and he wants to hide that fact from her. He's a person with abandonment issue who's now dating the girl he liked so much when he was a kid so he's definitely way more obsessive. But he learns to be better & become more social

i definitely agree that hananoi has a lot of toxic obsessive traits to him but i also believe there is true development in his character. not that’s in excuse to be a shit boyfriend, but because he was so emotionally neglected in his childhood, his warped idea of love meant to be the most important person (she is the most important to me, so i should be most important to her).

after entering a relationship with hotaru, he has to contest with the fact that he is not the only one in her life and he learns how to create boundaries, become in tune with her boundaries, and form relationships with others instead of only relying on hotaru. initially he wanted the relationship because he hates being alone but he really comes to love her.

obviously in real life a guy like hananoi would be an immediate no from me but i guess i can suspend my disbelief because this is a fictional teenager who still has time to grow, and actively shows his growth despite still falling into the ‘possessive boyfriend’ trope

Ah, I see. Thank you for explaining. I was sincerely creeped out by him and felt forreal like I had been in a bad prank show. Thanks a lot to both you and @takemeaway, you helped me be more open and hesitate less to continuing the show and maybe eventually the manga! I really appreciate you guys taking the time to type this out, this sort of reassurance was exactly what I was hoping for and more!

im glad i could help. the story mellows out into a fairly sweet romance but it all depends on how long you’re willing to give it to set in. it’s totally valid if it doesn’t click with you, since hananoi’s initially offputting personality definitely screams red flag. i was reading your earlier reply in this thread so i wanted to add, hananoi is possessive but it doesn’t get to a destructive level with hotaru (suicide threats n stuff), it’s where he learns self reliance and boundary respect because at the end of the day, he values her happiness over his own comfort. sry if this became rambly lmao

no no I legit really appreciate these comments, it's more than I hoped I'd get! Thank you for putting up with me despite how probably for fans this is an irritating discussion from an ignorant anime viewer ╥﹏╥
This type of behaviour when Ive seen it irl always turned out suuuper bad and traumatising so I guess I couldnt really suspend my disbelief the same way other ppl would, it made me feel anxious that this was romanticizing some crazy ass shit haha. I'm definitely gonna keep watching!

Your comment made me cry. Damn, I hate myself sometimes cuz I have lots of insecurities to the point that I don't expect to find anyone that would accept all my flaws.

aaawh girl. I don't know if this helps at all, but a lot of the time intimacy needs as a foundation a love of the self. In my opinion it is not about waiting for someone to accept your flaws, it is about learning to be appreciate of what's great about yourself and being open about your own potential. Learning to think about what "you" want, whether from society, others in your life, or yourself.

The most attractive thing about a person is usually when they find themselves enough and are open to doing their best. I dont mean be confident and optimistic all the time (thats not possible lol), I just mean be okay with the fact that you have shitty parts, learning to be proud of your gifts, and be aware that as a person you will never stop evolving and learning as long as you allow yourself to do so. We all evolve through life in many directions and ways, the most bizarre of us are those that stubbornly stay the same. And I mean, we love imperfect people all the time, a perfect person does not exist. Most of us do not pay nearly as much attention to other people's flaws as we do to our own just out of sheer self-consciousness (and those that do... well I feel sad for those people honestly, they must lead very lonely lives).

We humans are social creatures, we can conceptualize ourselves through having relations with others, so the best thing we can do is be in strong community with each other. I hope you meet wonderful people in your life that make you feel loved and welcome!

Awww thank you for your response. You must be a psychologist. Your words are really comforting. Magdilang anghel ka sana. And I hope I could meet someone that would make me feel loved.

lol more like Ive done therapy for waaaaaayyyy too long haha I am glad I could be of any comfort at all, be well! <3

My only knit pick is that the “dead lover” backstory felt so out of place for what the author was going for.

indeed hahaha, kiinda explains his earlier attitude and trauma sure but it's just told out of nowhere it basically gives u whiplash. I think if they added a couple moments foreshadowing it it would be better. I don't think it necessarily doesnt match the plot since a big part of the vibe is that the Demon King like just doesnt get bothered by stuff that usually fucks people up both physically and mentally, so one dude killing himself over this while Hel's like "huh I dont get it SEEMS LIKE A GOOD TIME TO ME??" could very well be on theme but it just was rushed in execution lol

tldr; okama is (mostly/partially) no longer considered a slur. It has regained common usage within Japan for a while now, and or sometimes refers to a specific vocation. It's not the equivalent of trap, it's just a word for catfishing.

what does "common usage mean" though? Do gay men and trans women use it for themselves? Even the fact that it groups them together says a lot. Is it a reclaimed word? If straight people use it that doesnt mean it's "no longer a slur". I don't particularly care about this topic or this manga, I was mainly posing a question, but if you are going to make such a claim then you should back it up.

Last time I checked (3 years ago) I heard statements from gay men and trans women who complained that it's still used against them as a slur. Maybe it has changed since then, but not to my knowledge. From a google search there is no discussion of it no longer being derogatory that I can find.

Ok I did some more research but I found that it's still a kind of reclaimed word by some LGBT members but many disagree with its usage so it's very mixed. So I guess a bit similar as the early usage of the word "queer" (though there are differing opinions on the history of the word queer being used by LGBT ppl and I dont know the specifics well). Interesting... a lot of food for thought. Would you mind sharing where you got this information anyway?

I lived in Japan, so it is just what I've seen. Over the course of the years, many words with negative connotations get reclaimed by it's users, but never quite shed 100% of its negative elements. Like the word fujoshi has quite a lot of history to it too, but it is far less negative now than it used to be.
It also depends on the region/area of its usage, and who says or uses it. Yes I would agree the equivalent may be close to queer, (though it's exclusive to males).
Because Japanese is a contextual language, the word itself is less important than who says it and how. It can still be a slur when used in such a tone, but it can also be used by men who are okama to identify themselves.

I'll give you an example. There were some guys in a bar I knew who crossdressed. They didn't identify themselves as women or gay (some were bi actually), and they didn't identify themselves as trans either bc they weren't transitioning, but the word okama was convenient for them since it was easier to explain. There are straight okama too.

Hoo this is very interesting. Thank you for explaining, this is very useful context, it was genuinely difficult to find a trustworthy source online about how the word is actually used! I've been wondering about it for a while. I have a couple of acquaintances from Japan (gay men) who talked about the word negatively as something straight ppl at their workplace used to call them, so my understanding was up till there. Thanks a lot!

Yeah, it's really hard to explain these things because of cultural/language differences too. Like here in the west, a slur is a slur, but there isn't strictly something equivalent in Japanese because the delivery is more important. Anything can be an insult or a praise basically if you deliver it in such a context. Like the word "erai" (meaning: great) is a positive word but can be used as an insult, while in some parts of the country side it can mean something else entirely. The language is so frustratingly vague that even Japanese people complain one thing can be read so many different ways.