Cleopatra's Topics (811)

Not gonna lie, its completely true

I feel ya

I vote your comment as the "BEST COMMENT EVER". Sassy, clever, on point!. Ten of ten!!!!

At face value your comment is very true. But it would mean that noone could ever criticize any literary work, or fictional character simply because it is fiction. If we feel that the bahavior of the characters of this story are not behaving true to life, or as portrayed earlier, then we are at liberty to discuss and say so amongst ourselves. We are also free to voice any opnion we may have as to plot etc.

In this spicific case we are all upset because we got emotionally invested, and that in itself is a compliment to the mangaka.

This is in no way demeaning to any author or mangaka etc. They are free to listen or not as they want. Most tend to like to have some sort of constructive feedback for the general public.

Couldn't have said it better. I too was disappointed, but not by the mangaka at all just by a character's actions, in fact I really appreciate the mangaka for making it more 'HUMAN'. As for the original comment, its demeaning to us readers... just because we have an opinion and want to share it doesn't make us think of ourselves as 'psychotherapists', it is simply ALSO called being 'human'.

Well said, i wish i could 'like' your post because i agree with it 100%

I don't know what was expected of me but I agree with your comment. Which is also why I called my opinion a "rant". I find that people need to be accepting of others' opinions and it is pretty ironic how these days I seem to lose my patience over... other people's opinions. Anyways thanks for the calm and collected reply, when I randomly logged in and remembered what I had commented, I had a face shrouded with doom and was all like "it's okay, it's fine, you don't have to reply if there's a lot of hate '''>__> " so this was a relief.

Oh and I did not imply that said people are trying to demean the creator, more that some people tend to forget about the fact that this, as a work of fiction, also a yaoi, is not meant to be taken at face value, but it is what someone put out there that has to do with their own fantasies and ideals. Passing judgement on a story character is way different from criticizing the mangaka herself, and no crime whatsoever lol, but it is like bypassing the fact that these are not real people, but people of a world created by someone. Someone is trying to connect with you and say something, and it feels, to me, that when people get hung up on characters' imperfections, when these imperfections where desired by the mangaka and thought of for a pretty long time in how they were going to be presented, is a shame, it is like the reader is missing the point said mangaka is trying to make.

Of course, any creation has two different ways of interpretation, the creator's and the audience's/viewers', meaning I have no right to criticize people just because in my opinion they "don't get it", which is why I called my comment a rant, it was just me throwing shade, at the end of it, it is a beautiful thing no matter whether you try to understand with Sakyo Aya or you just get invested in the smut and the story and get off so, thanks for making me think again ^^

I just wanted to compliment everyone who posted to this thread as well as the OP. All of you displayed such beautiful intelligence and eloquence in your comments and replies. This thread has raised the intellectual bar for this site. Thank you.

Kudos! There aren't many who would so openly admit that their rant might not have been quite fair. One thing I personally can't stand, is hateful commenting, especially to other comments.

Yaoi has several facets. Some explore sexual fantasies, some more relational elements. I don't think one can view different mangas in the same way. Meaning, this manga has a more heavily relational component, for all the sex and fantasy elements, that in the end drives the story. Which is why readers get so involved in analyzing the characters. Compare it to Finder, that for all it's plot, is far more of a sexual fantasy. I feel no need to deeply analyze the various characters involved. It also means I have no expectations of any sort of realism.

In those mangas though, that are about relationships, they do have to be emotionally true inorder to satisfy. And that I think was the problem here, it didn't feel emotionally true to a lot of people. So it may have satisfied plot requirements, but many felt it betrayed one, if not both characters.

hmmmmm, that's completely true, people have the expectation that they can be invested in the characters here enough to complain and bitch about them making bad decisions. another fair point that someone else made is that you might complain about how you disagree with a character but that doesn't mean that at the same time you don't appreciate the content, simultaneously. It's just about how into it you are at the moment.

I incidentally really love imperfect characters who act selfish or are driven by emotions into everything and fuck sht up so I was pretty biased and my pride tbh is too big for me to act like a snotty brat and not admit my mistake. I always want to be in the right side so... -___-''' it's a hopeless case.

You should also think about it in a different way. What is it so many are upset about? On the surface the behavior of 2 characters, but if you think about it a bit you realize that somewhere they feel that the mangaka did not resolve the situation in a positive manner. And I do think it is relevant that a large segment of a loyal readership all have issues with the latest development.

Of course IDK how this was received in Japan (but would love to know), but I would think that it is a troublesome sign that on such an international forum as this, I can discern no pattern but an individual preference as to whether a reader liked or disliked the last ch.

I really respect your opinion, in fact I appreciate the way you express yourself (mainly with respect) and how clear you've made your point, and I hope with the same amount of respect express why I'm not agree with you, though I understand your point.

First at all, english is not my first language so, pardon me if anything you read here (if you read it of course LOL) seems bizarre or not so clear. When you decide to read a story, either because you're a fan of the artist or someone said to you "oh you should read it, it's too good" whatever the reason you came here in the first place, there's something that it must be clear to you (I'm talking in general, I'm not making this personal) the artist draw/write for an amount of fans/readers like yourself. Said this, there's a thousand of people, which it means thousands on POV affected mainly with their own experiences, way to see the life and more importantly what you expect of the life itself. It's hard to give an objective opinion about something, that touches in a way your most sensible side (this only happens if you let yourself be so emotionally involved with the story). You always will give your opinion based in what you expect or how you wrote in your mind the story, which is natural and of course a selfish way to be and to be honest (and it's my personal opinion) a lack of respect for the artist. And this is the point I wanted to get in the first place: the mangaka decided to make an universe where werecats exists, therefore they have a human side and an animal side.
I think that she has been doing a terrific job developing both characters between their human and animal sides, and through all the stories there's a pattern (the one who's difficult to get him attached emotionally to someone and the other dealing with it in the way he thinks is the best way). If you have been following the story from the very beginning it should not be a surprise why they're acting now the way they're. Another thing is that you recreate the story in your head and idealize the characters and put in them your own feelings/how they should act/what they should say and of course whatever the mangaka would write/draw it would not be ok for you, but she's not writing only for you and she's not writing what you think she should write.

She's writing something based in her own fantasies, in a world created by her where the characters are half animal, half human and tend to let themselves go between the thin line of "how to be rational and not let myself go only by instinct" (which happens the most of the times).

What I'm trying to say is that, if you're buying the all package, you should accept it based in what it's offering to you and by itself how it reach your expectations if you know in what you're getting into, and not based in how it should reach your expectations according to your standards because that's not the main intention. If the last should be the rule, that means that the mangaka needs the power of read all our minds to satisfy each one of us. And it's too selfish to presume that she needs to write something to satisfy our likes and not her own creations and how it could be see it by the rest of the world. That's when I say "if you like it, if you understand it and if you're involved with the story because it has reached your expectations, go for it...if not maybe you should stop because you would get dissapointed."

Wow this is too long...anyway to finish this, it's ok to have an opinion, it's ok to express yourself, it's ok to criticize, but with subjectives works, creations of others it's too hard to maintain an objective POV, you always will get too personal and for me, its there when your opinion lose its power.

I hope that my rant it's not too annoying or too long and again sorry if there's something missed here...que soy terrible para comentar en ingles!!

Have a nice day/evening. ╮(￣▽￣)╭

Creative writing (and drawing) is a skill and a talent, some have it better than others. If a person writes a book, thinking they are a literary genius, and self publishes online, do I have to repsect their possible lack of talent just because they had an artistic vision? Or am I free to express my opinion that the characters and events do not conform to anything previously experienced in history?

I'm not saying the mangaka is untalented, not at all. I just want to point out that you can't ask readers not to have an opinion, or not to have the freedom to discuss, just because the author who wrote something may have intended it one way. I once in school did an analysis of a book my uncle had written, later, when I asked him about it, he was rather surprised, since I got a lot more out of the book than he had thought of, but it made him go back and reread what he had written. I was not necessarily wrong. The story, you see, stands on it's own merits.

eeeh, now we are getting far away again. "if you think about it you realize that somewhere they feel that the mangaka did not resolve the situation in a positive manner"
that, by quote, just looks like someone pushing their expectations. so what if it's not resolved with a positive manner? that's clearly not the point of it. the fact that you would prefer an alternative where it would is a whole other matter.

it can either be because a) the mangaka didn't have many pages left, she wanted to skip over to get to drawing the smut (which happens in yaoi lol) so she created a weird logic to skip over other basic stuff and didn't give a fck about whether or not shit got resolved, or b) she invested time in it and wanted to have characters who acted more instinctively and wanted them to be more irrational and "get dirty" to make things right.

will we know for sure which one it is? noooope. I got the impression that it was (b), but even if it wasn't, if you were unhappy with how things got resolved, that's your problem in the end and at that extent, your right to.
anyway, if i ever wrote a yaoi i sure as fuck wouldn't make it while thinking about what the majority would want to see but what i wanted to see. that's why any creation has two parts, because when you make something, you put a certain amount of thought into it, thoughts that the person who experiences the result later doesn't have to know and might never know or understand.

so, the fact that many people were unsatisfied, and it's not like it's a random unknown inexperienced mangaka, is freaking Sakyou Aya, in my opinion, does not reflect a bad image on the manga itself. the end, have a nice day.

hahah your rant didn't throw any shade at other people you were very respectful and your english is quite good. also I COMPLETELY AGREE.

That's the problem with too subjective opinions over stuff like manga or books and movies... it's too hard to dismiss one or to accept another one. everything's valid and invalid at the same time, makes sense but it doesn't. but I feel like that's what's fun about arguing like this (๑•ㅂ•)و✧

I wanted to make a "xx, raising the intellectual bar since 2016" joke but in this case who the fck even goes on the xx part? (⊙…⊙ )

Whether or not the mangaka cares that she has upset great many of her readers with this development, IDK, nor was I as such refering to it. I was in fact refering to the cohesiveness of the plotline as a whole, and the fact that so many seemed disturbed by it. There is a subtle difference. Also that the characters don't seem to be quite the same as portrayed in the earlier books, as quite a few have commented on.

While the mangaka is certainly free to take the story anywhere she wants, I am also free to opine whether I think this furthered the plot or not, developed the characters or not. And anyone is free to agree or disagree with me as they want. Just don't give me this line, 'you can't state your opinion because you don't know what she intended' or that 'she has no obligation to satisfy all of us'. That isn't the point. All that is relevant is the story itself, and I have every right to feel that something is lacking and to try and describe what that is.

Agreed!!! I love the flow of the conversation/discussion happening here! It's quite refreshing to see two opposing parties explain their own thought process, beliefs, etc. without trying to attack the other.

and even louder for the people in the back! (๑•ㅂ•)و✧

We're in the same boat lovely human being!! Your comments are truly appreciated! (づ￣ ³￣)づ

What I tried to say is that it is difficult to give some objective opinion about something that is the impression of someone based is its way to interpret different shades of a relationship (for example) and mostly painted by its own fantasies (to make it even more complex).If there's anything remotely close to rules/standards about how a mangaka should draw (like a trend and obedience to canons) or if there's a method in how she should make a plot development and she's sticking to it, if you're giving an opinion based on that and making a critique I would say that you have valid points. But, this is yaoi that not obeys to canons, standards and it's written by people with a certain kind of talent and that they have some story to tell in the forms of beautiful lines and an acceptable plot and they're just making something that at least for me it's a good excuse to make a bowl of popcorns and stay late at night. If I want to get truly and deeply touched or simply just read something that makes me wonder about our existence, my friend I wouldn't go for yaoi, I just simply will go to my favorite writer or someone that I know it will put me to think about the human nature.

"I just want to point out that you can't ask readers not to have an opinion, or not to have the freedom to discuss, just because the author who wrote something may have intended it one way." That's your POV and from mine she has been faithful all this time to the nature of her characters and the original story's plot. Probably I'm one of the fews you early pointed out and from what I read between lines it's very likely that I'm wrong? But ey, that's my interpretation of the story so far. It has reached my expectations, I believe the story is very entertaining (amazing art, plot/characters development good enough to get me caught up by and extremely great smut), I enjoyed my bowl of popcorns and I'm expecting the next chapter as usually (with the same enthusiasm as the beginning).

Also, before I've shared my impressions about Keiichi and Shingo with persons with the same opinions and with others that even they don't think the same as I do it was quite interesting to read what they have to say about them. The majority has the tendency to support one character or another, but I prefer to analize both of them and get in their shoes and try to understand them (and trying to remain in the plot that the mangaka has developed in the story, not adding what I think they should do...that's another thing entirely).

Again, this is too long! I just went with the flow.

Cheers!

oh no I wasn't trying to imply anything like that. Like I said, any work of... well I'll keep on calling it a creation, any creation has 2 different parts to it, which may or may not affect one another, and whether or not it responds to someone's expectations is their problem and their RIGHT to. That's what I meant. In the end, it's a very highly debatable subject, I guess, the lines in between are thin. Didn't mean to go round and round in circles :/ Also, I disagree, I might have not been a big fan of Sakyo Aya to remember the prequels page by page, but this was probably my favorite moment in the whole thing. It had this "we are too old to be going back n forth with insecurities/invested into this relationship so let's just go with our emotions one last time" and for the "proud one" to finally make the first move and the one who always backed down to finally be annoyed. But isn't that what's cool about it? That I liked something different from what you did? Before this chapter I thought this series was only good for dem hot bods and da smutty art and I thought it was an "okay" read. You liked it up till now a lot. Isn't that cool? :P
Sorry, I feel like this is dragging on and I shouldn't have replied, but it's a pretty interesting subject to brainstorm about imo. ¯_(ツ)_/¯ promise it's the last time...

Let me see if I understand you correctly:
"I just want to point out that you can't ask readers not to have an opinion, or not to have the freedom to discuss, just because the author who wrote something may have intended it one way." That's your POV and from mine she has been faithful all this time to the nature of her characters and the original story's plot.
But:
I've shared my impressions about Keiichi and Shingo with persons with the same opinions and with others that even they don't think the same as I do it was quite interesting to read what they have to say about them.
The majority has the tendency to support one character or another, but I prefer to analize both of them and get in their shoes and try to understand them (and trying to remain in the plot that the mangaka has developed in the story, not adding what I think they should do...that's another thing entirely).


If you feel she has been faithful, fine. But you can't seriously be suggesting that because that is your opinion that none of the rest of us may disagree and therefore discuss what we might consider to be a divergence from earlier character traits or an imbalance in reciprocity.

In doing a character analysis , especially if you had already do been doing one, and then a mangaka suddenly does something that is totally out of character, not just once but several times to suit plot requirements, how do you as a reader feel? Or if the characters as they had been start devoloping unnaturally in a direction to suit plot, i.e. sacrificing character for plot (came across that in a book), again how does the reader feel? There will always be times when, right or wrong, readers will feel that an author took a story in a wrong direction. And sometimes they will have very valid points. This why most authors like to have beta readers to give them feedback.

"But you can't seriously be suggesting that because that is your opinion that none of the rest of us may disagree and therefore discuss what we might consider to be a divergence from earlier character traits or an imbalance in reciprocity."

Oh, absolutely no! Everybody is entitled to express/have their opinion, if not this discussion wouldn't have happened in the first place. I think that I've made clear my point before but to wrap this up, according to MY POV and TO MY INTERPRETATION of the story itself, all I'm saying is that most of the readers should not put their own expectations in one or another character based in "this would be the right way to act because it's what is logic or close to real life" and probably not going with the flow of the story thing that for me until this very moment, it has maintain the bases of the original plot (thing in that you and I totally disagree, and IT'S OK!).

I'm not suggesting to you how you should interpret the story either, not at all. I'm giving you my perspective just for the sole reason to share thoughts about it. This I thing, will be enough and thank you for take your time to share your thoughts with me, especially under the amiably tone!

Have a nice day ╮(￣▽￣)╭

I read the raws and SORTA SPOILER ALERT: the ship ain't sailing. there's a new ship tho for da kawaii smol jerk-poo. (▰˘◡˘▰)

!!!!!! (๑•ㅂ•)و✧

WAIT. wait. wait....
which ship isn't sailing? I mentioned two of them! Which one do we get on, comrade??

oh wait I finally got who "kawaii smol jerk-poo" is lmao, yeah it wasn't a ship that was meant to sail, dat sensei was a good seme we just didn't have enough moments for them, awww so happy for everybody!!! ヾ(☆▽☆) la la la happiness!

i think that sensei is uke not seme...or am i mistaken?

hmm I was also wondering about it he would be a better uke than seme defs and Beriko does like to have more uke looking semes, it's just that Katsumi looks like a sasoi uke a lot. Well, we'll just have to wait and see >_> (๑•ㅂ•)و✧ I'm fine with both! (づ￣ ³￣)づ

yup that so funny LOL