Cleopatra's Topics (811)

Ha HA Ha....ur funni

Yeah... I can keep a straight face while crying in public but that's only because I look like an old wrinkly bag on a body if not. Then... I read yaoi and am like *gasp* how you cry so lovely uke-chan?!

Maybe cuz we cry like crazy people n it messes up our makeup and mood. And cute uke-chans cry where it makes their eyes glisten and bigger. They're face turns reddish and swells cuteee. It just has a monsterous effect on us lol idk! Just cry softer and slower lol!!! Hahahah!

I made an account solely to agree to this comment (づ￣ ³￣)づ

Man u stole my words

That was basically me!
(づ￣ ³￣)づ

That is literally action by action what i did just before reading this
ヾ(❀╹◡╹)ﾉ~

Hahaha.. It was my routine... Good job..
╮(￣▽￣)╭

Yeah! Like: I'm going to sleep, I have to study a lot tomorrow (today)... but... .... Is that Nemu?? (☆▽☆)
And nosebleed!

Meant to upvote but accidently hit the down vote...!!! :(

people have the fucking right to get heated up about a certain topic, even if its just a 'ya-o-i' manga. you literally have no sense of respect whatsoever to both bl mangakas and their readers, get a life. no one said that they wanted the uke to be a fucking sin-free saint that preaches about morality, theyre just angry about hes a cheating bitch who will never realise how hes hurting his partner so much.

jeez chill I was just joking about something I was pissy about, no need to go full out angry on me, how am I disrespectful to a mangaka?

I don't judge what people are into, it's just that my expectations got the better of me. It's a matter of morals and how seriously someone takes a work of fiction meant to be taken as a product and manifestation of their fantasies, why call a character "a cheating bitch who will never realize blah blah". I mean... a woman drew him according to what she was into thinking about. I get it if that's not your thing, but isn't it a bit silly to bash something another woman is into (and got paid to do it as well so it was approved by many other women and men) and get so serious about it?

Also no need to talk to me like that, I was just joking, just thumbs down my comment if you disagree or say my joke was in bad taste or something (which ok it was, I was being passive aggressively complaining about people I personally found easily offended, I admit that), Idfk... ╮(￣▽￣)╭

idc if u were joking or not, and thats no excuse to use after bitching about people bc they got too into the story. ur such a hypocrite, basically what u said is 'yaoi is just some shitty fantasy and it is never ever real so >> ur not allowed to get heated over it and even talk about the characters no matter how bitchy they are and no matter how offended u were by them bc i will get annoyed and passive aggressively bitch at u << BUT u should go and read a nice holy book or a watch a hollywood film that has moral shit in it bc thats definitely not someones shitty old fantasy and 100% real!' i said that u were disrespectful to the mangaka especially bc of the phrase 'some womans fantasy' and ur whole comment reeks of the 'at the end of the day, it dont matter for shit' vibe which, idk, u know, like, might be super rude to the mangaka? also u need to learn how to either appreciate other people's thoughts and value systems or shut ur fucking mouth up before shitting on other people.

How can you not see that the way you talk is poisonous to discussion? I don't mind people disagreeing with me but you disagreeing and you getting really angry and telling me to "shut my fucking mouth up before shitting on other people" are two REALLY different things.
Of course I never even tried to imply that someone is not allowed to get angry over it. That's indeed hypocritical. Also, my comment on hollywood movies was just me joking about how things there usually stayed non controversial/vanilla/ethical/non offensive. Sure, it was a prickly joke, but I don't think I was as negative about this whole thing as you are.

Never said "shitty fantasy". I myself have fantasies some people would call perverse or twisted. I am just open about what other people are into. If the author is into writing about characters like that, then good for her. I didn't think the manga was bad or anything, if anything that's the opposite of what I was saying. I don't think I was that bitchy, either. Sure I was passive aggressive, but I didn't even attack anyone, I just expressed my opinion generally.

And why is referring to a piece of fiction which is categorized under "YAma nashi, Ochi nashi, Imi nashi" -> "no story climax, no punchline, no meaning" as" a woman's fantasy" so bad? I mean the older the yaoi, the closer it fits that description. And that's just fine. That's what it is. It's "the good bits". The smut. The sexy stuff. A woman's fantasies. What's so bad about that?

There's plenty yaoi out there that are really good pieces of art and/or literature and deal with serious subjects, concerning society, gay communities, coming out, abuse, psychology, anything really. But since when are yaoi that have shallow plots, rapey scenarios, unrealistic sex scenes and stupid and imperfect characters something unusual and something to act so offended about? You think I was offended by people's opinions on a manga I just found "meh"? No, I am just very bewildered by the fact that lately, yaoi has evolved into a lot more than what it started, and that amazing and beautiful change for some reason has made people bash the way it was. How things started.

And I just... don't get it. Everything has a beginning. Why not accept it for what it is? Viewfinder also has a stupid stockholm syndrome plot, the legendary Ai no Kusabi is about a guy kidnapping someone and using him as a sex slave and putting a tracking ring on his penis, why are fans these days embarrassed to see yaoi for what it was and just... get over it? It's a piece of sexual fantasy fiction. And that's what's so cool about it. Its supposed to be this unapologetic, unashamed movement of gay fiction, made mainly by women, that doesn't care if it's wrong, if it's incorrect and messed up, because it is aware of the fact that it's... just fiction. Not reality. And yet the way it is evolving into so much more is making newer generations act like that unapologetic part of it is shameful and something to bash. That's what I got prickly about.

And if you think that's so fucked up of me and so wrong, and you got offended by this, then I am sorry I made you fell this way. Not my intention to attack anyone. I am all for freedom of speech. But I do not think I was being rude to the mangaka, if anything. My comment offending you is a whole different story.

Now excuse me while I go read some yaoi to calm down, *runs off into the depths of yaoiland* (ps sorry for the wall text O__O)

WHo made you the authority on people's reactions to yaoi? I think the dark-haired guy is interesting--and I like the story overall--but he's also a manipulative, lying, cheating, selfish bastard. That he's loved and their relationship works out in it's own weird shape..sure. But I detest the user/liar/cheater. He's a shitty person.

...hello nice of you to join on this nightmarish conversation that still haunts me from the past (￣∇￣"), uuugh... where do I start now..?
ok, bear with me for a bit, a huge reply is coming!

I read this book the other day for my thesis on transgressive fiction called the Story of the Eye, and in it one of the main characters at some point low key corners a mentally ill person (their close friend) to suicide, then has sex with the other main character next to their dead body, and finally she pisses on her eyes (of the dead body I mean)

Not my lightest read lol, but I don't think I saw anyone talking about that book saying how the main character was such a bitch for pissing on her ex best friend's eyes after fcking the other main character next to her dead body and how her being a horrible person made the book bad. Because that's not the point, or even more, that is PRECISELY the point.

Don't get me wrong, I get the sentiments hahah. I also don't like characters who promote hate speech or commit acts of senseless violence, and I do say things like "kill it with fire!!!ヽ(`Д´)ﾉ" but I just thought the reactions people have for characters like this specific one are a bit..... beside the point.
Of course, in all art and fiction, the author, as a certain literary figure would proudly say, is dead, meaning people no longer care about "the author's purpose" or "their message", but I think in yaoi it is still a bit silly to go around saying how "I detest main characters like this/that", because the plot is so to the point, that you can immediately tell what the author's intentions are. A creator may make a character for the sole purpose of you to hate them, or to make them in a more ambiguous way to leave it more up to you, or to start with making them a shitty character and then develop it gradually. If Takanaga Hinako is into making a hetare uke (who with all due respect, with all the hate the dude got I expected him to be a lot worse, people fucked over my expectations TT___TT, I've seen worse fucks in the mildest 90's shounen ai's), then why go around hating a character who is a "cheater/liar/user" (to quote you), even though that was what the author was into? Isn't that a bit like judging her taste? I mean yaoi is all about what clishe's you are into, or what kind of pairings you wanna try out drawing or what kind of moe gaps a character might have or idk, it's just too straight forwardly about things a mangaka is into. You don't even have to sympathize most of the time, especially if it's a short 1-2 volume story.

To me, this is like someone reading the whole book that I described earlier and then going "that book was horrible everybody did weird orgies and peed all over eggs or eyeballs and fingered cunts and it was just weird I didn't like it at all, horrible author, this Bataille dude" And in the end, it just upsets me, because I feel like this hate for a character is hate towards not only an author's taste, but their kinks. Judging their skills is a whole different thing than judging the topics or interests they are into. An other example would be someone who can't stand horror films watching one and saying that's the worst movie they have seen in a while because it was so scary. Don't you think it's just bizarre? And upsetting to the people involved in the creation, since it's more about someone projecting what they like to see and then going "this is not what I am into so it's not good"

Maybe this is a bit of a prickly subject for me since I am a developing artist, and you meet all kinds of people when you create things, and sometimes you just meet people who don't get what you are trying to do and only try to project what they like on your work instead. It's wonderful to have people draw different meanings out of your work, but to say that "it could have been better if this was fixed" and then not talk about your skill into crafting or delivering a message/point of view, but about having a different message altogether is just meaningless.
I do get though that I sounded arrogant or precocious at first when I commented and this is what brought forth all this hell for me so I am sorry about that. And it is not like I want to dictate how people feel, but just like how everyone said how they feel, I did the same *shrug*

Sorry you had to read all this but remember, YOU replied :P You have no one to blame for this mountain of a text but the two of us! Ok, back to my thesis now...(￣∇￣")

What the author intends has nothing to do with audience reaction. You should know that. A writer may think cheaters are fine (not saying this one approves, and in fact, she makes the character comical enough that we aren't supposed to take it too seriously), but the audience may have cheating as a hot button issue.

I like this mangaka A LOT. And I like this story quite a bit (see my rating). I just think the cheating character is a jerk. I don't see why it's an issue for you that the audience find him a jerk and say so. He didn't kill, do necrophiliac, or rape babies, but he's still a jerk from the point of view of relationships. He's not utterly evil (he cares about the main character, but he cares about himself MORE, hence the cheating and manipulation). The audience's feelings are theirs, not the author's. As an English Lit major, reading all those various interpretations of various novels, every person can go to a story and find something different from what authors did or may have intended. (Living writers will say this. People reading INTO what they wrote.) Once the story is released, it no longer belongs to the author/mangaka/artist. It belongs to the audience--and they interpret it along their own feelings and morals and life experience.

As an artist, YOU should know that. It isn't your work the minute it's public. It's just art open for interpretation and criticism.

Yeah, I do agree with "The Death of the Author" argument. That is why I mentioned it first. Looking back on it, I know I overreacted, or took on an unnecessarily precocious attitude, like I said before. But at the same time, I just said how I felt. And yaoi is most of the time a lot less complex than a work of literature, or a film, a lot more straight-forward and about your turn ons and-well I am not going to repeat myself.

And like I said before, for me it has a lot to do with my personal inner debate over freedom of interpretation, which to me is great as long as when it comes to subject matter it doesn't extend to criticism, and I'm saying this as a person who enjoys discussing their work and listening to criticism. And interpretation is a subject of debate and research nevertheless in the arts. I am not sure if you really read that long text I ended up typing, since it seems to me like we are really not communicating right now, and to reply to your points it just looks like I am repeating myself over and over again, but I am a bit curious about what you are studying..? Is that too irrelevant? In which country do you study if I might ask? Just curious since majoring in English Literature was something I considered before whatever the heck I am doing now -__-''

Sorry for diverting, but to me this topic just feels dry, I said whatever I said a few months ago, I argued on the internet about it, I recently came to terms with my annoyance on subjects like these and got over it, and now we are talking about this topic again, this time when you could say I have a more fully shaped opinion and am a lot more calm about it, but it just seems to me like an endless circle.

I never dictated how people should react, that would be impossible, I have no such power to do so. I just reacted to people's reactions, and people reacted back. I love arguing about things, and learning things about others and myself and getting some form of self elevation through an discussion, but I just don't think we are understanding each other. My point was at the core of it, that fiction should not be taken at face value. If a character practiced necrophilia, personally I wouldn't mind, since I would try to take it as is. I don't get your example. It isn't about how you judge a character's actions but about how you measure them and think of them in their given context. For me at least. That was my whole point on the example of The Story of the Eye, that the whole book is filled with all these taboo-crossing gross erotic things, but you are not there as a moral judge but as an onlooker, walking through a path made by someone and looking for where it ends and what you can make out of it.
Yaoi is plain and simple. A woman thinks a dominant seme with a sasoi uke who are pirate childhood friends is a hot plot, she wants the uke to surprise straddle the seme (who has also a large hairy dick maybe) and starts making a storyboard about it. Other factors that go into the construction of the story is page limit, how many chapters she can work on, what is the target audience of the magazine she works for, etc etc, I'm sure you know all that.
Anyway, I just feel like I am going around in circles and not getting through to you. It isn't about who is right and who is wrong, there are no such things of course, but understanding what the other is saying, and I don't think you get what I am trying to say, you didn't really respond to my arguments and I in turn just feel like I'm repeating myself ╮(￣▽￣)╭

I took your statement as condescending to those who make moral judgments on the characters, as if not making judgments is superior. But people can't separate that. I'm degreed in English. We had to dissect tons of novels. And trust me, debate on morality, misogyny, racism, etc, was all part of that. We do make moral judgments and it's not easily excised. It's like getting frustrated at female characters who let men walk all over them. It might add to drama, but it also might fire us up about such things.

But, I repeat--it doesn't matter what the author likes, doesn't like, intends, doesn't intend. We, the audience, will react. There are people, for ex, who think rape is hot and others who don't. They think torture porn is hot and others find it bordering on mental illness to find it hot. These are legit reactions based on one's own moral core.

So, if you got hot reaction, it was due to the tone of condescension: go read or watch a preachy shitty work...as if a work with a moral lesson is automatically shitty. That is also a fallacy. Many classics have a moral core and work as art. :D

yeah I see your point now.
Honestly this comment was so far back in my brain I forgot what I wrote in it -___-''.
I just read the first lines and was like "ooh that one *sighs*".
It definitely is very subjective and has a condescending tone. Moral lessons in works of fiction is something I personally have a negative opinion on and it's funny because that stupid essay I was writing actually at one point goes against Sartre's idea on fiction (he thinks it should have moral guidelines) and I analyze it (long story short lol), but I never had the solid realization in my mind before I wrote it that I think this way for all fiction. The comment I wrote here is a clear example of it but I just recognized it when you said it. O_____O hahahah

In the end yaoi is also in the genre of fiction and even if I see it as very straightforward about one's tastes, it is in the end, fiction. I just didn't want to admit to it I guess. As long as we are talking about fiction, it should have been a fact that the author/creator's intentions should/can be criticized without a context of their background and intentions. We have the freedom to do so, and even though I mentioned Barthes' The Death of the Author I ended up going right over it. If I had to be honest to make myself feel less guilty, I had noticed from the first time I replied to you about this logic loophole of mine but then I thought you were not listening to me so I got stubborn and did not admit to it rightfully. But oh well this is what happens when you argue over the internet I guess :/

Anyway, I can honestly say that I am over getting frustrated over people passing moral judgement on fictional characters and basing their opinion of the work itself on that. People have brains and they all work different and we (I) should throw less tantrums about it. It was not my intention to seem like everyone should share my opinion, but I complained about it too much.

But, you were a great sport, I really enjoy arguing with people (not shouting profanities but discussing I mean) and I'm glad you were my last encounter in this conversation and we turned it around. I find your major very interesting also, do you study in the US?
See ya around~

Yep. I'm a USA gal. ANd thank you for your civility. I think discussions can be strong and passionate, but shouldn't descend into trollishness (which, sadly, they can.) :)