Imitation as a fair game: about real boring stuff

So scary to find such a serious topic under such a stupid comment as my own was, mostly due to my chronic insomnia. I'm so saddened by the argument itself I don't even know where to start. I agree with those writing that rape is rape even in case of body reaction; mine was irony, pure and simple. Because rape starts in the victim's mind. But Azusa's reaction is simply that of a manga character. I mean, c'mon, we all perfectly see he felt somehow for Karino; in real life he wouldn't. Period. There are victims in love with their tormentors, yes, but those people do not have Azusa's profile. My all life I saw people blaming on art for crimes. If someone does something disgusting after reading a book/watching a movie/listening to a song etc., the problem doesn't lie in the art itself but in the subject. Yaoi as a genre is based on forced sex (sorry for underlining something so banal). I think we can all agree that first chapter was, still, exceptionally incisive: it shocked almost everyone. That's why we are reading it. Because the story works. It's real good to see such an awareness among young people (forgive me if you are not that young, I don't mean to disrespect anyone by saying "young") but a manga forum is the wrong place to worry this much, because it's art, and art is supposed to be provocative. The idea that everything the artist creates must "respect" people's feelings scares me to death. You know what kind of society produces a kind of art that is absolutely respectful? …totalitarian ones. This dramatic approach to art is the beginning of repression, not of a greater respect. Art is a catharsis. There's only one reason why someone rapes someone else: because they want to. Readers who goes around disrespecting other people, well, they didn't find that lack of respect in what they read, it was within themselves.

Agree! :)

From where did this repost come from? It feels genuine to me. He did say he's gay and he himself also feels concernes for how he's represented not just rape is wrong per say. Maybe he misunderstood your comment and replied to you. That isnt a repost unless you find the exact comment. I think the reason why he didnt go all out comment is because he is also aware that rape fantasy is important part of women sexuality as stated in tbe heated comments below so he's just saying that he's concerned like the others about representation because of the many mangas about the same stereotype. Well now im just speaking for him. You just have to wait for him to come back and clarify things out with him. I think he's speaking the truth and for himself because asian countries have an even more complicated issue of homosexuality that stems from representation. I come from Myanmar and when i explain the term gay all they thought was guys who are extremely lustful girly whiny stereotypical transexual that they see all over on television and main stream media and couldnt understand how a guy even though hes manly could love and find a male body attractive. So yea, genuine comment, respect him for respecting yaoi yet daring to point out his own opinions.

And PTSD is not consistently obvious. People can have PTSD and still crack inappropriate rape or trauma jokes because they are trying to come to terms with what they thought would happen and what really happened in real life. They will smile, laugh and talk like a normal character. Like listen to the podcast Anatomy of doubt. Ive had PTSD when my sister died infront of me and i didnt know it even though it kept tugging at me subtly. I also couldnt go into those stereotypical devastation but just a mundane numb feeling which hardly anyone noticed because i just went on about my life without knowing that i was that affected. The symptoms just.became apparent after a long time (around 1 and a half years) where everything just makes me feel agitated at one point and the next minute it disappeared. It took me 5 years to get over it and talk about this openly. Azusa is affected not just the result of rape but all his years crashing down on him as seen in his relationship with his mom and his aloof, sometimes spaced out and closed up distant character. but as we all know, we cant tell whether someone is affeced just by being a mini sherlock and looking for obvious signs. I wouldnt blame it solely on the rape because its a fantasy, but its a rape when you see one whether you see obvious signs of trauma or not

When I first read it, I thought it was a person posting his own thought here, and responded with that belief. Then I re-read it and it seemed like a comment from the youtube video where they were talking about the onee stereotype. So I thought the paragraph after the links was copied and pasted. I don't see it now--maybe I did make a mistake. If I am wrong, I am sorry.

If the comment was actually written by a gay man posting here after reading Caste Heaven, I do respect him and I am very sorry.

But the stereotype issue is different from the rape issue--and Caste Heaven isn't really full of that stereotype.

I also want to add that I know there is discrimination and stereotypes. That is a good topic for general discussion or a political forum. I'm not sure it applies to Caste Heaven.

I believe the best way to change stereotypes is for people to write their own stories and change the narrative. I'm not being mean--but how how can you expect women writing erotica for women to write the stories that change how society as a whole sees gay men? That's like expecting the heterosexual porn industry to write women's stories in a way the breaks sexists stereotypes. Women can't depend on pornographers to portray them realistically. (Have you seen some of the busty women in hentai? You can't walk with boobs that big). Gay men can't depend on yaoi to portray them realistically. Gay men have to write their own stories for the world to start seeing them the way they want to be seen.

I don't mean to sound harsh or unsympathetic. It's not that I don't care about LBGT+ issues, it's that I think that yoai is itself a kind of fringe genre, one that's often labeled "harmful" even though it is not. It's main purpose is to be erotica aimed at a primarily female audience. Some gay men also like it, and that's great, but it's purpose isn't really to educate people about real gay men. I like many yaoi stories that break the stereotypes and I wouldn't mind seeing more. I just don't like feeling like people are coming into a place where fans discuss Caste Heaven and blame it for all the world's evils.

That is why people are posting their comments about how they felt provoked instead of chains of head nodding and blending in. Even Disney have a fair share of negative comments ranging from Stockholm syndrome in beauty and the beast to snow white's almost too unreal character especially when written by an all male scriptwriter group. even though they do not know all kinds of perspectives, they changed and they hire experts on race and gender to come in and advise the plot. They take time to research and plan and thus we have the new good influences like frozen's empowerment (Let it go is said to be related to the topic of coming out and many want Elsa to be lesbian in the next movie) and zootopia's race and gender topics and even sexuality in the nudist club scene. Barbie had a lot of comments for normalising the "unattainable figure" which did affect people to undergo drastic surgeries and also body shaming. And they did change.



"There's only one reason why someone rapes someone else, because they want to"

In the manga fantasy, it is usually because of love and lust ( not talking about caste heaven. Just all rape tropes in general)

In reality. A study shows Most Rapist commit crimes because they want to overpower, humiliate and harm their victims.


The artists don't need to respect people's feelings, but they need to respect the facts about who they are representing especially if they are women and they are going to write about gays, they can do that researching them and keep them in mind when they make and follow tropes that dominates most of their mangas and keep a healthy dynamic where the rape, relationship inequality etc etc are not a normalising force. For example, if I'm writing a story about tribes (even if fictional) I would at least have to research about tribes and plan out a deeper background to my characters like Their in depth history, their social behavior and values that the city life lack and not "They look exotic! they wear fancy hats! They have gibberish names without a rhyme or a reason. And their society is very backwards and they only need to learn 'civilized' values of the 21st century."

And rape is still a rape even if it's your boyfriend, crush or anyone if there is no mutual consent, contract, safe words and one sided forcing. It is rape when someone ignores the dignity and right to refuse of a person to violate him or her.. Support Rape Fantasy, Don't Deny Rape

There is more than a type of PTSD. The DSM recognize three types (an acute stress disorder, a chronic stress disorder, and a delayed onset stress disorder ) In the case of PTSD we can have an entire range of symptoms that can be not that evident -only a doctor or a psychiatrist can make the correct diagnosis. It's normal to respond to a situation that cause allarm with stress (it's a mechanism of survival), the problem is when a problematic situation cause a constant/considerable state of stress/allarm in a person. The disorder is provoked by a extreme traumatic stressor involving the victim himself/herself or witnessing an event that involves another person (death, serious injury, rape). There are differences between the Dsm IV and the Dsm 5 about the diagnosis but I don't have the books with me at the moment. But- as I said before- I don't know if it is the case to be so worried about the characters of a manga that uses overtones and so much drama to entertain audiences.

here I must add something to your very respectful words (I mean you're always very correct choosing your words, which I admire in others). The world as we are experiencing it now it's becoming more and more full of borders - not only physical but identity's borders. Everyone is starting to believe that is a great thing to respect identities at ANY cost. But, as well as any kind of people should get respect, they should because of their humanity that bind us all together, not in force of some label that distinguishes among us as sub-genres. What I'm trying to say is that is dangerous to put all of this emphasis on everyone's idiosyncrasies. If a LGBT person feels offended by a manga, the real problem is that person puts more attention in their LGBT identity than in their being rational human being, loosing sight of the fact that society is not shaped by a manga. This aspect of the question - the fact that the LGBT community is building a wall around itself instead of tearing it down, worries me more and more. If a manga scares you - you have problem with your deeper identity, in my opinion. As you pointed out, porno industry is not the right place to search for "respect", because even having fun plays a role in being free.

"The artists don't need to respect people's feelings, but they need to respect the facts about who they are representing especially if they are women and they are going to write about gays, they can do that researching them and keep them in mind", …so, once you keep in mind they are women and gay who'll be affected by your work you HAVE to keep in mind to not disrespect them, in the end.
Although I see what you mean, Art does not work like that at all (I'm talking about Art, not everything that can be written, because I always keep in mind we are discussing CH that i consider genuine Art)

As an historian, you don't have to convince me of the importance of research when writing a fictional work about something real, but true Art is not about realism and stop. Even because reality is harsh. If you honestly portrays a gay community there will be a LOT of uncomfortable zones, not necessarily stereotyped, but surely not nice to see. Masterpieces like Burroughs ' "Naked Lunch" or Miller's "Tropic of Cancer" can be consider respectful?... Not at all, though they are, as you pointed out, "realistic" but in a very destabilizing way. Miller did one of greatest human research ever, and he portrayed misery at his peak. Women? A hole to be filled. That's what he experienced. Through that experience of emptiness he pictured the disaster coming from the Great Depression; humanity's fall from grace. Art is not about making everyone feeling comfortable but revealing, instead, how uncomfortable reality is. There's a deep difference between being historically or sociologically accurate and being politically correct. Taking care of everyone feelings is nice, but it's not Art, is political correctness. So, yes: you have to deal with the facts, knowing them, but the more you know the more disrespectful the work will come out. That's what make people crazy. A story like Chaste Heaven make everyone feel uncomfortable because, besides the unrealistic "teachers-know-it-all-but-do-nothing" frame… we all feel it is extremely realistic. And it offends us. We don't like being reminded how bad we are as a society.

[and I might put in doubt that teachers pretending not to see are truly unrealistic. I personally know someone who's been bullied heavily in school and teachers turned their head, not to the extend of tolerating rape, but still. That's even part of the fascination this story had on me in the beginning. It reminded me of those friends of mine]

Laws, films books, lit., do not change societies views. they reflect the changes in society. People living every day lives amongest socitey is what changes the group dynamics. Laws have already changed. they changed with the original civil rights movement, but there are people who still want others to think there is some thing left to fight against. you cannot discriminate against any one in this country now for any thing .Even an EX-con(new law ). This maybe should not be on a yaio board but we have to move from our divides to what makes us WE The People.

That's ok, it's just my point was that experts can make mistakes, you can't always consider their opinion as an absolute fact.

Well said. I would add that how a writer approaches a given subject depends on the intended audience and that even large commercial media companies such as Disney change only as much as their intended audience or consumer seems to want change. For example, Disney changed because its market did. It didn't do research because it wanted to represent people more accurately; it did market research and tried to appeal its audience. It didn't hurt that it started hiring and promoting more women and a more diverse workforce (because the best way to change the narrative is to get involved in telling the story). Disney isn't about education or research (Did you see Pocahontas?). It's about reaching a target audience.

If someone is writing a historical novel, they should research the period. If someone wants to write better fiction, that person should probably do research in order to flesh out characters. But the level of research and realism changes depending on the purpose of the work and the target audience.

I still think it's silly to demand women writing erotica do research into real gay men. Erotica isn't about real men (or women). MF erotica has heterosexual men who don't act like real men because they are acting the way some women would like to see men act. I have yet to see men in real life who act like men in romance novels. Erotica isn't necessarily written to be realistic. If the mangaka wants to do research to tell her story better,fine, but women aren't responsible for telling gay men's stories--that is up to gay men.

Add as much as you want. I really do mean to be respectful but you give me too much credit. I have my bad days and sometimes I make mistakes. I also talk/write too much (I also have insomnia sometimes). But I mean well. :)

I agree with everything you wrote here. Thanks for explaining it.

I could say something about insomnia making people too prolific in writing ;)
Your previous comment is truly interesting, it leads us to another step: is an Art Masterpiece meant to reach an intended audience?... I can't imagine Proust worrying about, well, any kid of public at all, while writing the Recherche (honestly think he was out of his mind doing that, that's why I love him). However, he shaped an entire century with his influence. That was a direct consequence oh his creation, that, obviously, cannot be taken as an example because masterpieces are exceptions, not rules.
Disney follows a market (I remember I saw Pochantas. I never felt compelled to watch it again, it must mean something) so do most artists, in order to survive the market. Mangakas surely are among the latter. You reminded me of something Dalì said "the artist should not worry about being contemporary. An artist can only be contemporary". Of course, he was speaking for real great artists as himself. Maybe we call artist too many "honest professional". Although I clearly see you're right, and 99% of artists do worry about the reception of their work, I think the "contemporary artist" is the one that shapes a new pattern and, in that sense, violate any existent rules, dissolving borders.

Does Art have to worry about a target? Or is it is Art because it creates a new one?...

I think in it's highest form, art is about self-expression. It is personal but it also transcends the person. The best work evokes something from the audience. It provides a unique perspective that still connects with people in some way. At its core, what is essential is the vision of the artist.

I think for forms of communication, the intended audience matters. If the primary intended audience is the creator, then that's fine too. Sometimes people write stories to please themselves and if those stories speak to others, that's just a bonus. If the work is meant to reach a specific group, then sometimes feedback from that group helps improve the work. I'm not saying it's necessary, but it helps when you are developing a specific skill and building your craft. If the aim of creating something is to make a point or have a certain impact, you need to find ways to do that effectively.

I think for commercial products, the intended market matters because the purpose is to make money.

Additionally, when it comes to feedback and criticism, the chosen forum matters. Of course, there is room for all sorts of opinions and for negative reactions but the intended audience for such reactions matters too. If an author asks me to be a beta reader, I will give different feedback than if I am writing a review for other readers. Both reactions are honest, but they have different purposes. If someone asks me fact-check a piece of writing, I will look up everything. If I am reading for fun,I will probably only notice errors that jar me out of the story. If I want to vent, I try to find people who are open to letting me rant but I don't contact the author to give unsolicited suggestions on how to improve.

I am going to make a confession. I thought 50 Shades of Gray was poorly written, and I only made it through the book by following people who were making fun of it chapter by chapter. I cou7ld have just not read it, but I found the snark blogs to be funny. I would never contact the author and demand she write better and I would not go to fan forums to tell them how awful it is--but when there are people making fun of it, I snicker. I understand it speaks to many people and that's great for them. But when I read descriptions of a bespoke men's suit hanging off the hips of the main character, I thought "Why didn't the editor tell James men's suits shouldn't fit like that?" and the answer is that for this author and her fans, those facts don't matter. Would I have liked the book better if she had done more research into how BDSM really works? Hell yes. But that doesn't matter to her and her huge success with people who don't care if it is unrealistic. They like what they like and it's not meant to be real or represent actual BDSM. I'm still going to make fun of it now and then, but I am not going to a 50 Shades fan site to tell people who like the books how they need to be more responsible in their choice of fiction because James didn't research real BDSM.

I guess I feel protective of yoai. I don't think it's perfect. If someone I know is a fan makes a joke about self-lubricating anuses, I will laugh and maybe make another joke if one comes to mind. I feel safe making fun of those types of unrealistic quirks with other fans. But if someone who doesn't seem to like yaoi starts lecturing others about how unrealistic it is, I feel defensive. It's okay if someone doesn't like something or part of a story doesn't work for them, but I want to feel people on the fan pages are fans in that they actually like reading yaoi as a genre. I feel that is someone is not actually reading the story, they should find someplace else to talk about why they don't like yaoi. Maybe that's wrong of me, but it's how I feel.

I like your passion, and I substantially agree with you on everything. I must admit I didn't post to defend yaoi as a genre, although I love it, because I think the genre and its authors will survive superficial criticisms, but I was really disturbed by how seriously people tend to debate an argument that is meant to be entertaining, forgetting the essential notion that if someone is influenced by a piece of art in a negative way the issue lies somewhere else.

I never criticize if I'm not really forced to. I think people should focus on supporting the things they're interested in, remembering that polemics fuel the fire of fame as well as appreciation.
Since you named it, I consider 50SOG the kind of crap that shouldn't be legally allowed to be printed, because trees are cut down to print books and we live in a digital era where trees are disappearing, so crap can be digitalized but this is just me dreaming about a parallel universe where people connect their brain and do not buy awful books. It's not criminal to say openly that a particular title, which is made fun of by every acculturated reader, is not a decent book. 50SOG is really the lowest kind of book ever and I'm not referring to its contents, which are, btw, edulcorated.
I'm talking about style. My life is easy - I let Wilde's principle "books are well written, or badly written. That is all" guide it. When I say i dislike a book it does not depends on how high it ranked the bestselling position. I open it casually, and it is good or it is not (of course, I mean in my own language. Whereas I can say when a book is excellent in english, I'm not that sure I could judge so quickly when it is not bad nor really good). An expert reader does not need other's opinions and will hardly disagree when reading what will later be called a "good book". When people defend in front of me mediocre books I fell sorry for them, but I don't go intentionally on a forum to insult them, because, as you said, if that book satisfies them, well, it's a good thing in a world full of horrific events. If I want to debate, I make politics. But I let people being happy with their passions.

"The books that the world calls immoral are books that show the world its own shame" Oscar, again. I'm pretty confident he would have loved yaoi, too, as well as self-lubricating anuses.

Oh, wow, I've just noticed that half of the comments are from my passionate fan with numerous accounts, heh. Honey, it's not healthy to be THAT obsessed with someone. And check your glasses asap as I told you, cause your are replying to some imaganery comment, that I've never posted.
http://static.yourtango.com/cdn/farfuture/9LBR8VDPSx27frKfpCsLBE1QzufTyq7yOrIHRA4IR90/mtime:1378839470/sites/default/files/image_list/haters.gif