I acknowledge that Dan went back and “willingly” made a contract with Jaekyung. I’m not arguing that. That seems to be true. Of fucking course Dan is grateful for what Jaekyung does for him. I am arguing that Dan has the right to say no to Jaekyung even after signing the contract and that if his no isn’t respected it is rape. Dan said no to Jaekyung several times. Jaekyung does not ever stop.
He eventually found out but atthat first moment he didn't know therefore he didn't take ADVANTAGE of it!
No please answer my question if my partner tells me to stop and to go and they keep switching things up, should I just continue? Or should I call it quits, either because it’s clear that the person in question isn’t comfortable, or because their indecisiveness might get me in trouble. I reread the chapters I took notes on the goddamn chapters because you motherfuckers said that I was missing something and I wasn’t missing anything. I will post my chapter notes and YOU will reread the chapter and call ME out on my bullshit if there’s any bullshit to be had.
chapter 1
- dan witnesses jaekyung uncontrollably beat the shit outta someone off the bat in ch. 1, contributing to preexisting fear of physical violence from him. granted though this was not jaekyung’s intention (debatable honestly) and does also count towards why dan could’ve/should’ve known to say no to the agreement
- jaekyung is just overall physically intimidating whether he’s trying to be or not. this isn’t his fault but there’s no question that he uses this to try to get his way in situations
- uh. dan was hired as a pt. not even by jaekyung himself but by his manager? ch. 1
- dan is there for the conversation about jaekyung having knocked the previous pt out. point for he should’ve/could’ve left earlier, but also point for jaekyung (inadvertently here, granted) using threats of physical violence to intimidate, which could contribute to a coerced yes later
- dan comes to the conclusion that if he doesn’t do well, he will have physical violence used against him. jaekyung’s manager basically confirms this saying as long as dan doesn’t do anything to get on his nerves, he’ll be fine
- dan has a history of being physically abused, as such he will do anything he can to avoid it happening. that said jaekyung doesn’t know about this at this point (ch. 1)
- personally this…i feel like jaekyung picks out dan as his next target precisely because he’s a “little wimp” as he describes him after that first sesh
- as stated before dan is having to work multiple jobs to maintain himself which again highlights the sheer power differential between these two (can i clarify and say—jaekyang is not solely responsible for the sex being ultimately nonconsenual if that makes sense and i feel like this is what i was really trying to argue. we’ll see)
- dan is just so. self-blaming nothing to do with jaekyang yet but brother
- dan’s job prospects got fucked because of his previous boss, who was caught sexually assaulting him, but ended up getting him fired and spreading rumors about him. this contributes further to how desperate dan’s situation is hence why he is not given a meaningful choice (again, not ALL jaekyang’s fault)
- dan can’t afford to up and move somewhere where he might have better prospects idk how many times ill list down “he doesn’t have a real choice because he’s poor not because of jaekyung specifically although jaekyung doesn’t help”
- dan feeling unsafe everywhere. nothing to necessarily do with anything yet just an interesting detail
- dan is/would’ve been stuck between a rock and a hard place, getting beaten up by the loan sharks or getting raped or assaulted or whatever by jaekyung
- jaekyung lies to dan about his treatment to lure him to his appointment i guess you can argue dan should’ve used his common sense here but that feels victim blamey and if we can critique dan for lying about his experience we can certainly critique jaekyung for lying about why he was calling dan to his house
- dan says no to going to the apartment, jaekyung offers him more money for him to go (bribery more than coercion though lol but…considering that this is kind of a trap,)
chapter 2
- jaekyung…had someone else he was fucking already? who was willing? why switch to dan all of a sudden?
- dan again witnesses jaekyung use an disproportionate amount of physical violence (slamming guy’s head into a wall) AND a death threat against someone because of a slight provocation. again, this counts towards both “dan should’ve known better and left” and “dan likely (rightly) felt too intimidated to say no”
- jaekyung definitely does find dan physically attractive but we still don’t know why he decided to quit his previous partner for him
- jaekyung does try to get a vibe check on what dan might think/how he might feel about being propositioned
- the jinx in and of itself is a fundamentally fucking stupid plot device so let’s start there. we don’t know if it’s real or not we don’t get any real explanation for it other than that it exists. it exists to justify jaekyung’s sex-pesty behavior though, that’s for sure. you can interpret it as also another method of coercion—what he’s saying is that if he loses, it will have been dan’s fault. this of course puts a disproportionate amount of pressure on dan but maybe im getting ahead of myself
- jaekyung physically grabs dan. nothing violent yet though but this is yknow. erm
- jaekyung does indeed give dan the choice to leave if he doesn’t want to have sex But the added consequence is no money. as noted before this guy lied in the first place. also note the language use: “guess you don’t **need** that five grand after all” just…interesting
- again, dan’s circumstances make his yes not a meaningful yes. that isn’t specifically entirely jaekyung’s fault but ***jaekyung does not help.***
chapter 3
ch. 3
- jaekyung does indeed ask if dan has been with a man before. he follows up with “i suppose it doesn’t actually matter.” now again dan should’ve been honest he is responsible for that but also, jaekyung, if he actually gave a fuck, wouldn’t just assume things—especially with the non-answer dan gives, the hesitance he shows
- dan did just lie though. stupid bitch. you could say this counts against him but you could also attribute his feeling of having to lie to not only his own personal psychology but, again, the various shows of violence and intimidation jaekyung had performed beforehand
- jaekyung uses physical force on dan to get him out of the shower and throw him onto the bed after he takes too long in the shower. again dan ain’t sign up for allat. again jaekyung could’ve/should’ve checked in properly here but whatever it’s his character
- threatens to break dan’s ankle when he struggles and asks him to wait
- I GET THIS IS FANTASY BUT I DON’T CARE HOW EXPERIENCED SOMEONE IS YOU DO NOT SHOVE A COCK UP THEIR ASS NO PREP ESPECIALLY NOT A MONSTER COCK. THIS GUY JUST WANTED TO HURT HIM. “DISCOMFORT” DURING SEX MY ASS? NO PUN INTENDED?
- threatens violence again (“if you waste my time like that last little bitch, don’t expect to be sent home safe and sound”) when dan says he can’t actually go through with the sex, prompting dan to think of. the guy getting his face smashed into a wall.
- dan explicitly asks jaekyung “then how do i do this? if you just put it in, i think i’ll tear.” personally i once again think that this should have been a red flag to anyone who cares about the virginal status of their partner but. ok
- jaekyung says “last chance, no more mr. nice guy after this” which is another threat/intimidation tactic. he does tell dan to leave if he can’t handle prep. but this followed after the threat of getting his shit rocked if he’s too slow.
- do you really read all this and then read dan going “well i asked for it” and think “yep he sure did!” and not feel bad. at all. and like something isn’t right here.
- again jaekyung uses physical force on dan when he’s going too slow for his liking
- dan sure does ask for jaekyung to fuck his ass. after being roughly fingered
- dan tells jaekyung that it hurts and asks jaekyung to stop, jaekyung does not stop. jaekyung in fact proceeds to shove dan’s head into the mattress and say, “keep testing my patience, and i’ll smash your head in” followed by “just shut up and take it”
chapter 4
- dan tries to crawl away from jaekyung, jaekyung slams into him
- very hard pressed to read jaekyung’s response here as being one of concern/sympathy (“what the, are you crying? over that? i barely even put it in!”) it is if anything belittling. again dan is responsible for being honest but jaekyung is responsible for creating a space where he feels safe to be honest. besides that, jaekyung would’ve actually asked if he was okay instead of pounding into him
- jaekyung pounds into him, explicitly saying that he likes seeing dan cry, and that the tears won’t make him go easy on him
- jaekyung does…”check in” on dan, dan foolishly says he can take it.
- speaking of dan lying, when jaekyung says he’s had a bunch of cocks before, dan says that isn’t the case
- dan asks jaekyung to be gentler, jaekyung tells him to shut up and then goes harder and even covers his mouth so y’know even if he wanted to say no he couldn’t that’s very consensual to me
several different websites define rape, legally, to involve nonconsensual sexual intercourse (penetration) being done to another person by means of force—force being psychological coercion, threats, use of drugs, and/or use of physical force.
You mistake lack of comfort for lack of consent.
How do you define consent, then. I'm posting my FRIES model. Do you disagree with this?
Consent must be: Freely given (without pressure, manipulation, or under the influence of drugs or alcohol), Reversible (able to be taken back at any time), Informed (all parties must disclose any information that might threaten the safety of the interaction, any information that would cause someone not to consent), Enthusiastic (parties involved are doing things they really want to do and have expressed as much), and Specific (agreeing or consenting to one act doesn’t mean a party agrees to or consents to any and all acts).
There’s also the CRISP model of consent, which takes into consideration the fact that it can be difficult to always fully “freely give” consent because things like power dynamics and different systems of oppression (like sexism, racism, …capitalism, etc) can’t always be fully erased from an interaction, but can and should still be accounted for in some way. The C stands for Considered (as in all parties are given time to consider all the factors going into something and deciding whether or not they want to consent), and the P stands for Participatory (as in all parties need to be involved in the decision-making process, all parties need to have their thoughts, feelings, opinions heard and considered and accounted for).
My own nuances I’d add are: consent must be ongoing, as in should be acquired throughout an interaction (which is partially covered by the Specific clause) and that all parties, but especially the dominant/giving party or parties, are responsible for deliberately fostering an environment where consent can operate from within these models.
You forgot the part where he said “i can do this”. That's rough sex but on Dan’s part it is sexual assault. Rape could be called sexual assault but not all forms of sexual assault could be called rape.
In my notes I put:
- jaekyung does…”check in” on dan, dan foolishly says he can take it.
Can you define what sexual assault and rape are for me real quick? It is to my understanding that the only thing distinguishing the two is whether or not penetration was involved. Sexual assault is everything up until penetration. Rape involves penetration. Jaekyung penetrates Dan.
BUT ARE YOU SERIOUSLY GOING TO IGNORE LITERALLY EVERY SINGLE THING THAT HAPPENS BEFORE THIS POINT? YOU'RE GOING TO IGNORE DAN ASKING JAEKYUNG TO GO GENTLER AND JAEKYUNG REFUSING? DIDN'T YOU SAY SEVERAL TIMES THAT JAEKYUNG WOULD'VE GONE GENTLER IF DAN ASKED?
Jaekyung doesn't verbally refuse. I don't think you're reading jinx right. Can you give me a few hours so i could get my own notes on the chapter?
Fine.
Thanks
Unfortunately, my note isn't ready. I had a lot of work to do today so please bear with me!
Uhuh.
Damn…work must be real busy huh.
Thank you for all your hard work! I enjoyed the discussion ^^
Look, I’m not like you who dedicates their full time to a Manhwa, I also don’t like writing long essays and I also know we’re having a debate. My point is, I still stand on no rape in this Manhwa, yes, there’s abuse but there is no form of rape here. You can disagree. I can’t just go ahead and say Jaekyung raped Dan when he had told him to leave thrice, I can’t say Jakeyung raped Dan when Dan came again to ask for more cash. I can’t say Jakeyung raped Dan when Dan was aware of what he was getting himself into.
If Jakeyung raped Dan then Dan had also raped Jakeyung for sleeping with him knowing he was drunk. Y’all completely forgot that part ey?
Anyway, it was nice sharing thoughts with you but I have to end it here bc I’m tired. We don’t have to conclude neither do we need to agree. You believe it’s rape and I don’t and that’s that.
Bye.
One last thing, consent can be given and taken back but it can also be given again.
It’s been…literal days. All you had to do was reread four chapters. The gall of you to claim that I was reading Jinx wrong, meanwhile you couldn’t read just FOUR QUICK CHAPTERS and give me an answer.
You say you stand by the idea that there’s no rape in the webtoon, fine. I stand by the idea that YOU are the one who can’t read, that you, for some bizarre reason, refuse to call a spade a spade at no real cost to yourself, and that should you find yourself or someone else in an abusive or coercive situation, you would not be able to identify it as such, nor would you be able to respond properly to that situation. Because that’s what’s at stake here. When you say things like “he knew what he was getting into” you are parroting almost word for word the type of rhetoric people use against real life victims of sexual assault, rape, and abuse, to downplay what they’ve gone through. And this is the kind of rhetoric which keeps those victims silent about their already traumatic experiences at the hands of horrible people—horrible people who are FULLY TO BLAME for not being decent people. It’s the type of rhetoric that traumatizes them all over again, which makes them blame themselves for something that wasn’t their fault, and which excuses their abusers for their actions and behaviors if not partially then entirely.
Yes, Dan does eventually go back for more money from Jaekyung. But that’s AFTER their first interaction together, where they had no pre-established blanket consent. But in the first place, we do not and should not even have to get into the nuances of contracts and blanket consent—both of which do not erase your right to say no—in order to determine what is happening and what happens several times in this webtoon. If you operate from the very simple concept of “no means no,” from the very simple concept that someone can say no in a whole host of ways—including telling someone to wait, or to stop, or “not now” or “it hurts” or “slow down” or that person trying to crawl away from you, amongst other things—if you operate from the very simple concept that when someone’s no is ignored, then they are no longer consenting, and anything done to them thereafter is nonconsensual, and if you have read and paid any attention to any of the text that is in this webtoon whatsoever…you will very clearly see that Dan says no to Jaekyung several times, and Jaekyung continues what he’s doing several times. Jaekyung rapes Dan, several times. If no doesn’t mean no to you, though, then, well. I don’t know what to tell you anymore.
Unlike you I am more than willing to call out rape when I see it, wherever I believe I am seeing it. I like to be logically consistent and sound. Yes, Dan did rape Jaekyung while he was drunk. Because you can’t consent while you’re under the influence. I’m not on some pussy shit like you are, that was dumb and wrong of Dan, even if we actually somewhat understand where he was coming from. And I find it frankly fucked up that you’re using that as a “haha, gotcha!” moment when we, or at least I, am trying to have a serious, actual discussion here. If you can acknowledge that being under the influence of drugs and alcohol muddies consent then you can acknowledge that Jaekyung also raped Dan while he was under the influence of whatever drug the rival team tried drugging Jaekyung with later in the webtoon, right? Or what, is that one a special exception somehow, too.
Okay buddy. Next time I’m with someone and they start crying saying they’re scared or can’t handle what I’m doing to them but then they suddenly “change their mind” I will just continue doing what I’m doing without bothering to check in or unpack that
Like is this too theoretical for you? Should I get into more real life examples of the types of situations people have been in, including myself, to illustrate how messed up the thing you’re saying is? You would tell me to my face that what occurred in these situations wasn’t rape just because…what? If a child let someone molest them several times for money, would you consider that consensual? If a woman’s husband had sex with her while she was asleep and unwilling and she stayed in that relationship, would you say the husband didn’t rape her? If a guy agreed to give his boyfriend a blowjob but that boyfriend took it a step further, despite the guy’s protests, and shoved him down to have anal sex with him, would you say that isn’t rape? Because the guy gave the boyfriend a blowjob?
1. The art is GORGEOUS ( huge improvement from BL Alex)
2. Dan signed up for this.
You hate to see it but stuff like this happens in real life. It’s called being a sugar bb. Dan knew what he was getting himself into. He made a deal for MONEY no where in their contract did it say J has to be kind and loving. ( Obviously I want that and I wanna see him grovel ) but you guys forget yourselves. He is a big time athlete with an ego and money to burn. Dan is poor and in need of money. In fact are we just going forget that J paid off dans grandmothers hospital bills? For no add on or extra requirements from Dan? Did you also forget the part where Dan asked for MORE money a month and J said sure but in turn he wanted have Dan whenever and wherever and Dan AGREED? A deal is a deal. Is J a piece of poo? Yes. Is this story meant to get us riled up for him to have some crazy redemption arch? YES. If you hate reading it, then quit. Tired of you fools yapping and not understanding how things work. Pipe down and enjoy the BL or leave and quit hate reader.