ML is the type of dystopian leader that's actually realistic

Totally agree with you on that. I have read tons of story about leadership, and even observing it in real life rn. Being a leader is sometimes, they only have two bad choices to decide, back out mean death to the whole group. Therefore, they have to take the guilt to move forward and accept consequences/ chain reactions of those choices.

sure, i don’t disagree, but we have to remember there are two sides to every coin. extreme punishment could result in extreme retaliation even if survival calls for it. people like the idea of penance & forgiveness. lacking a code of ethics that expresses a reasonable amount of empathy for those in your group doesn’t incentivize them to be on your side either.

guwon’s ignorance in understanding this could be his weakness in the end despite his physicality. being a leader requires more than that. but yes, i really like the story. it’s an interesting take on things & makes us question the characters actions/beliefs.

right? it's never a black or white choice too, it's always gray vs gray, and as the leader you have to pick which will be the lesser evil, the least likely to cause harm for MAJORITY of the population, not just a select few. Like in this case, yeah it's sad that the dad died coz his kid needed medicine, but for all you know, that kid could be sickly in nature anyway, it would be great to treat him sure, but not when the resources are extremely low.

The reason why they prioritize the hounds is coz it's an investment, not a moral choice. Them being healthy = more resources, vs a sickly child getting better for a short time = just depleted medicine. One might argue that well the child can grow up too and become a hound, okay when? in a few years? they are constantly in motion, the demand is in the now, they cannot afford to lose time and resources. Also, survival of the fittest, right? only the strongest child survives, if they can't live without medicine, they probably won't last long in that world, so dying is actually a much kinder fate for them too.

that would be the case IF the decision was solely on him, if right there and then he became the judge and the punisher to the guy, yeah it's very easy to see how one someone from the town will retaliate, but he gave the townsfolk a choice- they were the judge and he was just the punisher, it was the pontius pilate move all over again, he just doubled down by actually killing the guy and taking the blame, but since it was a collective decision, the guilt is still on the group, that's why it would be hard to go against it, coz if everyone's in on it? who can you blame?

just because he utilizes the group to be the jury doesn’t mean that group can’t decide to oust him if they feel like it. all it takes is one disgruntled member to convince the pack to brutally kill him. going by their logic, if one minor infraction means death for one, then it also applies to guwon. hence the reason why forgiveness should be the balance here.

They could and they definitely would, but then who's going to do their dirty work? you actually believe the ML is the leader because they call him as such? he's their mutt, every decision was already decided by the group before they even raise it to him, they just don't want to get their hands dirty that's why they assign the final act to their "leader" instead. If he did the same infraction as others, the group MIGHT pardon him, not because they forgive him but because there's no one else in the entire freaking town who kills so-called-criminals but him, no one else who'd willingly take his job.

you villainize the group as if they’re not individuals with different thoughts, emotions, etc. they all partake in dirty work. you’re only seeing it from one aspect: guwon. we don’t really get true insight on how everybody contributes, so we can only jump to the conclusion that guwon carries the weight of the group, which is not necessarily true.

you’re absolving guwon & i dislike that bc it implies bias. even if he was, he’s still a perpetrator that needs to be held accountable. guwon can make decisions too… he’s not a child. he doesn’t have to kill anybody.

you’re assuming they’d pardon him, but we cannot forget how they make decisions as a group. if they can decide to kill people collectively, then they also can decide to kill him collectively as well.

why wouldn’t anyone take his job? he’s not the only muscle within the group. there are hounds. they could easily usurp his throne if they so choose. again, you’re not looking at this from all sides & i feel like you’re cutting guwon slack bc you like him.

Guwon awares of his choices will brung consequences, which is when he mention taking on the guilt. I think that’s how I understand this latest chapter rn. I need to think more, and see more to understand this better.

I am not absolving him, I am just stating the most likely possibility based on what was given so far in the plot. I am not villainizing the group, I am saying people want change but they don't want to be accountable for the extremity to make those changes happen. People want salvation but from others not within themselves, that's why they're always looking for someone to look up to and use to blame when everything goes crashing down. They want peace and order but they do not want to enforce the penalties to make that peace and order happen.

Also this isn't a new concept, even in real life, unless a leader is a dictator or an absolute monarch, they are most likely put as nothing but a figurehead while the real people who control the government/system, pulls the string behind. If they find no use for him, I do NOT believe they will pardon him, and IF he were to commit a crime judging by their extreme sense of judgement, they will kill him too no doubt, but I ask again, who will do that? the hounds? the hounds are muscles, sure, but their muscles are used externally-- as a way to retrieve resources no matter the cost, even if killing others OUTSIDE of their group, their strength is not for harming those within the town, otherwise this would create tension between the other factions since they are abiding by the law for the sake of the hounds, and then it's the hounds who also enforce the harsh penalties on them? (that doesn't make sense) only the ML does that, he's the only one given that task of not only taking on the dirty work outside but also inside simply because he's their "leader", not even as a privilege mind you, otherwise why would he cry while bludgeoning that dude to death?

Also what would be the grounds for them overthrowing him anyway? he showed fairness according to the town's standard by not sparing the dude, he satiated their need to punish the "rat" by doing what they want. He, alongside the townsfolk made it a nuclear rule that the hounds are to be prioritized when it comes to resources because it's them who acquires these resources in the first place, so why would the hounds usurp him when the system that he has helped build so far is clearly showing appreciation for their work?

OMG! The mutt is the appropriate term to compare Guwon rn. He got the brawl but less of the brain(? I think). So maybe he is being brainwashed (?). Or he knew better that making moral choices won’t work in the dire situation. Hopefully, he’s also playing mind game with this group of ppl.

In this life & death scenario, the greedy, selfish, hunger… etc consuming majority of ppl mind rn. They tend to choose logically rather morally to save their own butts. In pretend for the better of the group.

The majority only choose to be kind, moral when they are well fed, safe and sound. Create a facade to build good images for themselves.

So how can one like Guwon run that group of ppl? How to satisfy the majority? When should the leader draw the line between moral vs logical?

this! it's so easy to say why can't they just pick a lesser punishment, so easy to say that they should've taken the higher ground, fr these folks are so well fed and so comfortable in life that they can't imagine living in such dire and desperate condition. They forget to remember that this is a life or death setting. Imagine they only have 1 hound left fetching resources, that hound catches illness and dies coz this dude stole the medicine meant for him to give to his kid. So now what? now ALL of them suffer for it. This is why it's such a high offense, might sound over the top, but these are the sort of things that must be nipped in the bud before others copy it and cause the complete collapse of the town.

Also as much as it's sad to hear, people do turn for the worse when pushed to the edge, coz people will always prioritize what would be good for them. Just look at real nations who's struggling with resources to give their people, these countries tend to have the highest crime rates too and the vilest, extremist forms of executing punishments as well.

you are. i understand guwon is ignorant, but he’s not a bystander. if their group has democratic principles (voting), then that showcases their accountability right there. if they’re as cowardly as you say they are, then they would’ve gave guwon the power to make the decisions for them.

i’m not absolving leaders of their agency by going down a conspiracy theory rabbit hole. guwon is not innocent & he has the ability to make choices too. if they’re so bad & cowardly, then he is too bc he aligns himself with the group. why be a leader of a group that you can’t trust?

why can’t they get rid of him if they so choose? they could collectively plan & kill him.

are you saying the hounds would abuse their power if they took guwon’s place?

being a leader is always a privilege, even if you have to make hard decisions. who knows why guwon is crying? we’ve seen him throw up after kissing jinwoo. we don’t fully understand his actions & beliefs. what we do know is that he will kill people in the group if they don’t follow the rules.

because in this setting, it’s about power (those at the top). if they wanted to, they could overthrow him. your group is as good as your people. yes, resources are needed, but emotional intelligence is just as valuable.

there will come a time where guwon makes a mistake & he goes against the group to help jinwoo. the grace he didn’t give the father is the grace he won’t be given when he has to atone for his wrongdoings.

no it is not lmaoooo. y’all make no sense. so he’s a lackey & a leader? (._.)

why do we automatically jump to absolving him? what if his values align with the group? if he’s playing mind games, then that means he’s consciously aware of good & bad.

he’s not choosing that either? again, why y’all keep acting like guwon doesn’t think this way too? he was quick to kill jinwoo in the beginning, but decided against it once he learned that he was a teacher & found his skills valuable to the group.

you just made that up. i refuse to let y’all villainize these people while thinking guwon is a saint.

he can run them bc he’s the leader. he satisfies the majority by making hard decisions & utilizing his physicality. that’s up to guwon. that’s the whole point of being a leader.

i’m not saying these decisions are easy… i’m saying there’s more than one option. that’s how you become an effective leader.

there are poor & homeless people living everywhere. you don’t think those people can’t understand why they do what they do? let’s expand our line of thinking instead of acting like what guwon did is ok.

you’re binary thinking is what harms a group. life doesn’t exist within a vacuum. people will make mistakes, but these mistakes don’t necessarily mean the end of a group. there are levels to communal collapse. guwon killings people for their mistakes is what accelerates & deteriorates trust within a group.

there’s no way they’ll be able to survive if we can’t build these internal pillars of emotional intelligence & understanding.

so do you think it’s justifiable for these countries to kill off their citizens bc they make a mistake? or would utilizing social reform programs & promoting education be a better way in helping their people to reduce crime & life expectancy? you’re indirectly supporting murder & authoritarian rule. guwon’s actions align with those principles.

increase life expectancy**

are you a kid who can only see things in black and white? I did not say that the group of people are cowardly, I even said so that they can get rid of the ML if they choose to, THEY ARE THE POWER- lose their favor and you are out. They can collectively decide what to do with him, if he becomes a hindrance to the order of the system rather than a tool for continuing it, you think they're going to pander to him? you think they can't overpower him? no matter how strong the guy is, he's still just one guy in the end. I'm saying they are conniving and would want what's best for their interest first just like how real life people resort to these actual tactics when put in a do or die situation. Being a leader is a privilege? yeah if you're ruling over a prosperous country, but even then, there would be far too many responsibilities that you'd need to take on to keep the entire thing running smoothly and even more crucial decisions to do to appease people with different beliefs under you. And that's only in a good, stable nation, what more in this shithole town that's literally surrounded by zombie infested lands?

Also, when did I say he's innocent? so far he's proven to be slow in the head, but that doesn't mean he's innocent, even a person who killed someone while blacking out from drugs and claiming to have no recollection of the event is still a killer. The thing here is that he did not go up to the person, look him right in the eye and killed him because he just wanted to, he killed him because it was what the group wanted, and since he is part of the group, he adheres to its decision too, because what else can he do really? go against it? and then what? really, tell me? and then what? you want him to spare the dude? when taking resources for one's benefit is a sore spot for the townsfolk considering how some already took advantage of it previously which lead to the death of their hound? these people are literally enduring their own illnesses to make sure that the hounds get enough resources, because it is the cost of their protection against the zombies, the hounds' survival meant the town's survival- if someone were to threaten that, it is not surprising that they would take an extreme action against it.

Also when did I say that the hounds would abuse their power if they were in charge? not saying they wouldn't either, both's a possibility. But what I'm saying tho is that the hounds will have tension with the people if they are also the ones punishing them for the crimes. The people currently see these folks as their protectors, if they were also the ones to execute the penalties (publicly might I add), that would taint the image that they have of them, which could lead to some losing the will to do their civic duties of guarding the resources for the hounds in return, this would most likely cause for a divide within the town (between those against the hounds vs those for the hounds). That's why they needed to have the leader do it instead, because the leader is standing in between the hounds and the average townsfolk, the people can give the final decision to him/her, and the leader could just enact it without creating power struggle between these 2 groups.

Lastly, I did not disagree that they could overthrow him, he is quite dimwitted on some aspects of life, it shouldn't be a hassle once they weaken him physically-- but I ask again, what would be the motive for people overthrowing him? he keeps the gears running, he's acting according to what they expect of him, doing what they need him to do, he is the poster boy that holds their so-called utopia together, giving a sense of protection, stability, and security from the outside threats. In a world where survival is the ONLY thing that people can think of, they won't give a rat's ass about EQ, all they would want is a leader who can keep them alive no matter what, and if going to the extreme measure is what works, so be it.

whoever said he's a saint? lol have you seen his character design, who would even assume he's a saint? it's you who keep on painting him as a black character when the author clearly meant for him to be a grey one. He did not hesitate to kill the MC on the first chapters because he has no use for him, simple as that, that's why he changed his mind when proven otherwise. The reason why kills them if they are no use either because they could be infected or to end their misery right then and there. What you want him to just take him in to the town out of the goodness of his heart when the people there are barely surviving themselves? he only takes in people who has use for the development of their group, it was just fortunate that MC fit into one.

Don’t get me wrong! 1000% Consequences will come to get Guwon. He aint saint. Killing is still killing, whether knowing or being brainwash. Guwon did mention it too, that he will take on the guilt for the group, meaning he also at fault. He knew he has to pay for it in the future.

But do you know that most manipulative pple, they rather choose some1 to be the King, and themself stand behind the scene giving suggestions (aka a force order). The privileges the king has, is fleeting. They can overthrow that person if it is not useful to them anymore. The leader/king has to be a yes man for the group too. (Why do I believe it? Bc I’m living in this kind of system rn, in 3 different places already. Also saw how the presidents of my mother country, and the country I’m currently living in. The neighbor countries. From small group to as large as a country)

Being physically strong or/and smart is still no use if the majority isn’t backing your back. The lackeys can secretly, manipulate ppl around him.

Rn I’m not sure how old is this group is, how many good and bad ppl are in there. The majority vote happen to kill is also their own choice. Be it selfish, jealousy, greed, or simply just follow the majority vote bc they too lazy to find the truth.

The MC is only doing something he should do, called it moral, kindness. But now is one against many. Hopefully, there will more good ppl to balance the system. And Karma don’t always get every bad person. It skips sometime.

I hope this is a peaceful debate, not an argument. Word I wrote can be misuse, misinterpreted. It is hard to convey in an paragraph than talk. So no offense

lol, have you seen countries with people who has a record of committing high treason offenses against the country? they DO kill them. Also what social reform and programs bullcrap are you spouting, you think they can afford that as of current? they're most probably working towards that that's why they needed a teacher, but in the current timeline, they definitely can't focus on that when other pressing matters are at hand. Also you fail to remember that giving people the chance to have access to the resources is not a foreign thing, they already did it before, and they abused it, that's why the rules are much stricter now and the penalties are even more extreme.

- no, you see things in black & white. i’ve been arguing about nuance for a while now. you’re implying cowardice. your words:

“I am saying people want change but they don't want to be accountable for the extremity to make those changes happen. People want salvation but from others not within themselves, that's why they're always looking for someone to look up to and use to blame when everything goes crashing down. They want peace and order but they do not want to enforce the penalties to make that peace and order happen.”

- ok, but guwon is not a victim. the only victims here are jinwoo (for now) & the children. guwon is a leader with agency.

- right, so when i’m saying that guwon can also be killed mercilessly, it supports my stance about forgiveness. if we’re not careful, they can justify murdering him for his mistakes. we need a silver lining here.

- idc if he was the leader of prisoners, being a leader is a PRIVILEGE. it is not a right. do you hold this same belief for the english monarchy or trump? i don’t think you do. so why are you acting like guwon deserves special privileges? yes, it’s hard, but it’s still better to be at the top vs. the bottom.

- you’re IMPLYING he’s innocent. you act as if guwon doesn’t have agency. no, guwon killed him bc it’s what they ALL wanted. don’t act like guwon didn’t want to either. it doesn’t matter if he looked him in the eye or waited until everybody voted for it, murder is murder.

- i get what you’re saying, but there’s levels to this stuff. taking extreme action never ends well. punishment, law & order, etc. must be well thought out & taken on a case by case basis. nothing is purely black & white. so, yes, guwon could make a different decision. he could be the voice of reason & help them see that. he’s the leader.

- i never said you said that, i’m asking a question. i don’t disagree with your line of thinking here.

- i mean the story is still developing, so i can’t say for sure. all i’m saying is that there’s a possibility in this happening to guwon if they decide go down that route. guwon could betray them, they could get sick of him, somebody could threaten his position or persuade the members to go against him, etc. the possibilities are endless. i only make this point bc guwon isn’t perfect & he’s going to want grace too in these scenarios. it’ll be hard for his peers to care when he didn’t extend grace to those he killed.

- guwon is not a puppet. he is an active member within their society. leadership requires active engagement. idk why you’re acting like an apocalypse means EQ has to be thrown out the window altogether. humans are social creatures, they need it to survive. it’s how we’ve evolved as a species.

- sure, but extreme measures are only temporary fixes. a society will never thrive under binary thinking. you can see this in countries today who hold these extreme beliefs. prosperity is scarce & their quality of life is nonexistent.