Nerves

The difference is that you don't condone his action as much as me * (sorry, English not my mother tongue)

"Actually he hasn't done anything which prevent him to learn properly. He just took his usually seat, and coffee, (which are not his properties so...). He sat next to him but he didn't even talk to him. He never crossed the line, never been disrespectful, never bullied him, and never prevented him to study or anything so..... I must admit that he kinda looks like a stalker because to know all his habits I presume that he followed him everywhere, but overall, he hasn't done anything serious, it's mostly childish."

These are your words that sparked the discussion.

You claimed that what he did isn't serious, just childish. We clearly see it's not, it's having bad repercussions on his day.

Even if you claim he didn't know these repercussions would happen to this extent, fact is that he is purposefully triggering someone, knowing that his actions will bother him to some extent.

That his actions bothered another to an extent he didn't expect would just be analog to aberratio criminis, which would make his actions have at least constructive intention.

I don't think he is a scumbag and the worst, im fact, I think this is a BJ Alex situation where Jaeyoung will change and be happy in the end.

But rather than making assumptions about someone's personal experiences to discredit their point of view (which is awfully close to gaslighting btw), I question why you're so keen on excusing psychological harassment and downplaying the effects it has on the victim to exclude the culpability of the perpetrator.

Dude, why are you so aggressive?
What they were trying to convey is from what i understand that, yes, they agree that what jaeyoung did to sangwoo was totally not okay(especially given that sangwoo never actually did anything wrong, other then being rudely honest), because yes, it's clearly messing sangwoo up, a LOT. preventing someone from being able to concentrate at all in class, and basically making sure that they are uncomfortable 24/7 is OBVIOUSLY NOT OKAY.
but the thing is, even you have to admit that generally speaking? most people would NOT be bothered to this extent by the things jaeyoung has done. would they be annoyed and angry? well, duh. having your favourite seat in class taken is annoying. your favourite coffee brand being sold out is annoying. someone you dislike hanging around you all the time? annoying as FUCK. but you can't seriously believe that someone 'normal' (and please note i am using normal in quotation marks here because i am referring to the generally accepted societal norm, not my personal beliefs on that matter) would be this messed up over such seemingly small inconveniences.
again. i am NOT saying that sangwoo isn't the victim here, or that what jaeyoung did wasn't wrong. i am just saying that i, and from my understanding Aime, believe that while jaeyoung did intend to annoy and inconvenience sangwoo, and is obviously in the wrong for doing so, he had no idea that his actions would cause this much harm, and he still doesn't, because WE only know the extend of the harm he causes sangwoo because we can literally read sangwoo's thoughts. jaeyoung can not. he just sees his kind-of-crush not remembering who he is, and responds to it the way a toddler would, by, to him is just, pulling pigtails. he wants to be annoying, not seriously harmful.
does that make his treatment of sangwoo okay? No. he is unaware of the harm he causes, but he IS causing harm. No one is denying that though.

all in all, what i'm trying to say is, from my standpoint as a 3rd party it doesn't seem that you guys' general opinion differs all that much, beside some slight misunderstanding that were'nt helped by the fact that not everyone is a native english speaker. There is no reason to not try to be kind to other people when we can, no one was purposely trying to downplay anything.
(also just as a p.s., attacking an opponents personal experiences in order to discredit them in a debate is very, very common. and while it is generally considered to be very bad and unprofessional(aka what we would call a dick move), it is NOT gaslighting. Gaslighting is if person a tells person b 'i saw x yesterday!' and person b replied: 'no you didn't, you saw y! we were together when we did, don't you remember? are you sure you're okay?' it is stating facts that are untrue, insisting they are true, making someone doubt their own perception of what is happening to and around them, their own memory, everything. it is horrible. and it is not even remotely close to someone assuming something about you based on a short conversation)

also i'd like to apologize if what i said comes across as rude or offensive, i genuinely only meant to show that both of you seem to actually have very similar viewpoints, but i also realize that that is technically not my playe since i am in no way part of your discussion.

sorry for typos and grammar errors, english isn't my first language either (￣∇￣")

If you read the entire convo, you'd see thay Aime's arguments, as well as yours, is different than mine, on the degree that I believe constructive intent holds moral culpability, while you guys do not think so. In fact, I don't believe Jaeyoung didn't know it would bother Sangwoo that much.

You want to end the discussion, stop on let's agree to disagree, I'm fine with that. As I said, I see Jaeyoung as a Jiwon situation.

What I'm not okay with was that Aime started attacking me first, when they didn't have a comeback, by trying to be shady with what they imagine is my personal experience by saying that my judgement is impaired because I must have suffered bullying - and that is awfully close to gaslighting, more specifically, political gaslighting. What you described is denial gaslighting. I won't put up with it and I will defend myself.

You want to come for me for being aggressive, come for them as well. I'm not doing any different than what they did.

Ah, sorry, I must have missed that you thought jaeyoung was actually aware of how much harm he was causing with his actions.

In that case you are probably right that there wouldn't be much point to continue an argument, because while i see where you're coming from, i think we are just interpreting it differently, and it's not like there is a clear-cut right or wrong here, sind it was neither confirmed nor denied whether jaeyound wants to cause legitimate distress or just be a mild annoyance, at least at this point.

You are obviously right that Aime shouldn't have gotten rude/personally attacking, that's why i said that it was a dick move to do so, but i realize now that it sounded very generalized, and not like i thought that they, too, were in the wrong for attacking you! I'm sorry about that.

Also, this is not me saying you are wrong or anything so please don't take it that way, just genuinely asking, but from my understanding gaslighting is ALWAYS based on saying something that you KNOW is wrong, even in a political context(for example trump's 'fake news', russia denying that they had any presence in crimea despite having active operaives there etc). Where did you read/learn that political gaslighting was different?

I genuinely apologize if i made you feel ganged up on, that wasn't my intention. i was basically just trying to mediate, albeit poorly.

I keep telling you again and again that we do not have the same opinions so why the fuck do you keep trying to change my mind? I accepted that your opinion is different so can you please accept mine goddammit. You believe that he's perfectly aware of what he's doing I believe that at some extent he's not conscious of the consequences of his childishness. I'll keep thinking that he wants to trigger him like a child would, but without knowing how affected he is by all of this (even if his purpose is to affect him). I'll keep reading it without identifying myself as the MC and bothering someone doesn't mean bullying someone. And wtf are you talking about perpetrator and victim lmao that's so out of context and not the debate we are having. For me he's immature and childish now accept it. YES he's bothering him on purpose, NO he's not bullying him. If you don't know the definition of it, that's not my problem. It may have consequences on his psychological state but he's not doing it on purposes, he's not doing it to manipulate him or control him or any other bad intentions. There is a difference between bothering someone purposely and being a sadistic person who purposely play with the psychological/emotional state of someone. One is stupid, the other is alarming. In this fiction I don't see the seriousness and don't feel like he's an abuser and I'm pretty sure that's what the author wanted. I will not talk about what I think about "excusing psychological harassment and downplaying the effects it has on the victim to exclude the culpability of the perpetrators" because firstly the answer is obvious and I think that the simple fact that you're asking me that, is super offensive and secondly, and more importantly, this is not what we're talking about, we're talking about this fiction, this situation. And you see this situation as abuse and I don't. The story is not that deep, this situation is particular, the MC is annoyed but it doesn't seem like it affects him to the point he's desperate and emotionally drained, this situation is supposed to be comical and this yaoi is not psychological. If you don't agree then that's your opinion but I have mine so accept it. If you want to talk about abusers we can talk about killing stalking, painter of the night, down and dirty (or almost every yaois because the Stockholm syndrome trope is a fucking norm in yaoi). But in this one, I don't feel like he's an abuser or like he's toxic, and that's my opinion so accept it.
Don't try to change my mind it's useless. And if you think I'm a horrible person who excuses abusers behaviors then so be it. I don't care. I don't know you anyway and I know my principles.

OMG THIS!!!!!! This is exactly what I meant!!!! I couldn't have said it better. Thank you so much.

Mozzarella already said agree to disagree. The difference is that what you believe to be bullying differs from ours. I also believe that childish doesn't mean harmless it simply means immature. You two believe that this wouldn't affect you the same way it affects you, I, personally, believe that it would affect me even worse. You don't need to start using swear words. The person said they were mainly upset because you kept saying that it's because of personal experience.

We all have to calm down, this is a debate, not a fight, we are arguing our beliefs because we believe we are right, if the other person really doesn't understand, them we say 'agree to disagree' . No need to dig into personal lives, swear, insult, or hurt. Being kind and be respectful of viewpoints are the most important things in a debate. Other than getting your point across.

I tried to end it all calmly, with an open ending, such as "we were both right and wrong with different opinions and that there might have been a misunderstanding". I was so ready to finally ends this stupid debate and end it all with an "agree to disagree" but noooooooo they prefer to keep going over and over as if I was saying some bullshits and they were right and I was a dangerous person who excuses abusers's behaviors in real life. The proportions are getting way out of control because they talk about "excusing psychological harassment and downplaying the effects it has on the victim to exclude the culpability of the perpetrators" ???? wtf ?? I'm starting to swear (without insulting them) because it's the way I talk when someone gets on my nerves. This debate is useless and irritates me, but I didn't insult them anyway. They may have said "agree to disagree" but it's definitely not honest, because they keep going, they just wants to prove they're right and I'm wrong, and I feel like they're trying to open my eyes or something. Idk why they can't just accept that I have a different opinion and it's not because they don't agree that I'm wrong. I'll keep thinking that their personal life has an influence on the way they think, it's not an insult, it's not inappropriate, it's just a presumption of mine about why they have this opinion which differ of mine. I just want to ends this, but visibly, we're both way too stubborn. I finally accepted that it was useless to change their mind so I'm just waiting for them to accept my opinion even tho they don't agree with it and move on. They attacked me way before I started to say that they may have been bullied in real life (also, I said that because I had already wanted to end this debate without even trying to keep justifying myself but they triggered me by saying that I was saying this because I was "loosing" the argument lol). I was already irritated enough but now I'm really fed up with all of this, because it has been going for a while now. But I'm stubborn so I'll keep answering if they keep attacking me so yeah... ╮(￣へ￣)╭

I see, it's cool though. Everybody can have one of my home made chill pills.
one for Aime
one for Mozzarella
(They look suspicious but they work, I promise.)