Kiki's Topics (280)

AGREED

I think it's him. I'm a little confused too.

He's supposed to be in jail for that, not working with him. Sometimes in BL they treat those topics as nothing. It makes me too angry

I also think the same. It's like her character design has change. Back then she looks more feminine but now, it's just guy with long hair. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying this in a bad way. I just want to state that her looks has definitely change.

If she was drawn like that from the beginning, or if it was all a part of a general evolution in the creator's art style I would have zero issues. But it looks like yet another person who can't envision a lesbian romance outside of a boy-girl paradigm. It's disappointing.

Maybe it’s how you perceive it since the author’s art style changed, but to me she still looks very feminine^^

Completely agree.

I feel like it's the clothing and the partial style change. I used to do the same thing when I had crushes or was trying to attract someone. I went kinda tomboyish and tried to be more handsome rather than cute. I'd say it's more of a preference thing + tomboyish-slightly-bigger-and-loose clothing can really make you look rough even if you aren't

I think it's more the author has fallen into the uke seme trap. A the series has gone on, the blonde haired character is portrayed as the smaller, more girly, naive woman whereas the dark haired character is very "tomboyish" and dominant, rather than showing two average women as opposed to having to make one butch and the other femme.

There's a youtube music video where they use a picture from this webtoon, and everyone, including the uploader thought the dark haired woman was a man. The gist of the song, was "I kissed a girl" song in a man's voice. So people do think the dark haired woman is too masculine, rather than just a woman who is gay.

The "uke-seme trap" is exactly the same thing as the "boy-girl paradigm". It's a refusal to see romantic relationships outside of a heterosexual formula. Even in BL bara stories most of the ones I've read do not feature "reversible" as readers call it in the face of reality and common sense.

My complaint wasn't really about the tomboyish issue. Again I don't mind that. Nothing wrong with being tomboyish. Nothing wrong with drawing a masculine looking female character either. My issue is that artist's character design for the tomboyish character has become even more masculine, the lines have become rougher, seemingly *in response* to the developing romance. And it betrays her prejudices.

What style change? She has always worn pants and slightly loose clothing. In any case, that is not what I noticed. I'm referring to the actual line drawing in her character design, of her actual *physical features* including her face and arms.

I also kind of feel like it's her clothes cuz in the latest chapters she really does look like a dude but for the most part she only looks slightly broader and taller than before so yeah she's changed but not drastically I think (=・ω・=)

True, the way the author draw her definitely has change.

Agree.

? she was drawn like that from the beginning. go back to the first part, ch. 1-13. pgs. 14-31 contain some of tan jiu's concept art. it does look like sun jing was more feminine in the earliest drawings but became more androgynous before the series even began.

specifically, pgs. 19/31, 20/31, 22/31, 24/31, 25/31, 26/31, 27/31, 29/31...

in fact I have 29/31 saved and was looking at it one time when my sister saw and assumed sun jing was a boy.

also looks like older sun jing's style is more ""masculine,"" more leather, pants, and shirts make her seem flat-chested. it makes sense that sun jing now is gradually changing her style.

*shirts that make her seem flat-chested

While I do recognize your point of basing a lesbian relationship on a guy-girl paradigm being negative as it paints an heteronormative view on a a girl-girl couple, a lot of her early designs (as mentioned in the comments above) showed her as being butchy, aint nothing wrong with that.

Yesssss, I support & love my butch daughter

If you look at the early side arts you can tell she was always intended to be the more masculine of the two. Also I think she looks plenty like a girl rather people think she looks like a guy because anime/manga/etc got people so desensitized to those girly boy bishies that they don't realize it's the other way around.

Yup agree with past few comments. Shes always been more tomboyish which isn't a problem - there are plenty of stories with two femmes etc so why not have some with a more butch character and a femme? Idk I just think you're looking into this too deeply - art styles develop and change, and his includes exaggeration of features etc, there's nothing wrong with this!

I don't know how many times I'll be able to explain that I meant the line art in relation to specific parts of her physique and not the fashion. (Her essential fashion style has not changed much and I for sure don't associate leather with being masculine anyway for crying out loud.) The lines in the 29/31 design are far more elegant and the face far more delicate than anything we're getting for that character now. Ergo it's the *complete opposite* of what my post addressed.

If you don't view the change as I do or think that it's a response to anything (or that it even happened at all), no problem. But it takes more than baggy pants and shirts to make a character butch, and I'm over people in the thread thinking *that's* what I'm referring to. Or constantly defending her right to be tomboyish when I already stated *that* wasn't my issue either. I ain't about to link to Youtube drawing videos for clarification and I probably don't have the vocabulary to explain my critique (I don't draw) clearly so I'll end it here. Agree to disagree.

Oh my gosh, some people just don't get what your post means when it's so simple to understand. When I read your post, I understood it right away because that's what I'm also thinking. Having read this long ago up to now, there's really something different with how the characters are drawn now especially Sun Jing. I also have a similar post way back that maybe there's a different illustrator now. It's not because of how the way she dresses because that's how Sun Jing dresses from the very start, it's just there's something different with texture and angles of the MCs face. Oh and just to add, I'm a lesbian btw.

well it seems like i misunderstood you. maybe i got you confused with the other people in this thread. however, i actually do draw, but i really don't see what you're talking about, the lines being more masculine in terms of her physique. i can see that the lines are thicker, but they're the same thickness on qiu tong. what you're describing sounds like a typical change in art style to me. same-face syndrome isn't a good thing, and it's common for artists to slowly change the design of their characters to differentiate them more. i've heard teachers criticizing designs like this: "your characters all have the same face." even to designs with different heights, fashion, hair color and other distinctions. this is especially a problem w/anime-esque art style. it's more believable to me that tan jiu spotted this as a problem and changed it, rather than that they're unconsciously prejudiced.

take for example this webcomic, "always raining here," with a pretty significant artist evolution.
on the first page, http://alwaysraininghere.com/index.php/arh/cover-2/, the two male MCs look almost the same. hairstyle, face shape, eye shape, etc. by the end, http://alwaysraininghere.com/index.php/arh/page-219/, they've changed drastically. one has much softer and feminine features, while the other is more angular w/defined jawline, etc. once again, an extreme example, but i wouldn't say the artist couldn't portray a gay relationship w/o falling to hetero tropes. it's clear this is what the artist always had intended, but simply wasn't at that level in their art yet.

recently, i showed a friend of mine a few of those early drawings and he too thought sun jing was a guy. it seems to me from the concept designs that sun jing was intended to be less feminine than qiu tong. sn't it feasible, then, than tan jiu has simply gotten better at portraying it?

(This comment was a while ago but oh well) As a butch lesbian reading this shit show of a thread I just have to say that even implying that the butch/femme relationship is imitating het relationships in any way is incredibly shitty?? (and homophobic for a thousand reasons) and I can't believe I'm writing this much on this haha but let me say that the author has actually done an amazing job, in my opinion, at portraying an actual lesbian couple that I actually enjoy reading about (aS A LESBIAN WOW) + when I saw that the artist had started drawing her rougher and more masculine I genuinely got really excited and happy because 99.99% of lesbian rep (in various media) are two feminine women (not saying there's anything wrong with femme/femme relationships because that's not what's shown)

I can definitely see where you're coming from, but I don't think it's the author envisioning them in a boy-girl relationship. Some women do become more masculine throughout their relationship, both style-wise and physically (more muscle growth, etc). My (now ex) girlfriend definitely did that. I actually quite like that the author made her a little more masculine since almost every other GL manga has two femme girls (no hate to femme girls, they're great too). That might just be my love for masculine women talking, though. That's just my opinion, though.

Well, the real pinch point which pushed him to act like this is the message about his loans. Before that he says himself "Alright, let's pretend that i never saw him", but the message about the student loans is the most logical choice, storytelling's wise.
Also not sure if that's really a deception plot: Wonyoung's personality (how he is with the elders is a mega clue about his personality, helping and caring about people he doesn't know. He seems more like a guy who can be tricked than the one who really tricks others) + like 90% of the time he doesn't monitor Yoon or has some time when he doesn't want to run into him + ending up as a tutor (meaning he would have less free time).

Wonyoung is deceiving Haejun because he's got ulterior motives for getting close to him(even though he says he forgot what he was there for, sometimes)Basically he's kind of using him to get back in his company. I feel like he'll ditch the his company and start feeling bad for tricking taejun, and genuinely he's good guy so he'll regret it.

Glam it up all you like but he lied about his background and his motives. He lied about his job history--notice his panic when he let it slip about "office parties"--lied about how he knew the sculptor's tastes in liquor, lied about why he wanted to work with him, lied. 90% of the time HE IS monitoring him: it's the reason he joined the pottery class. Even in chance encounters, he tries to use it an opportunity to dig further. Even in the sculptor's own HOUSE, there because the guy was nice enough not to leave him on the street, he used it as a chance to snoop around. He has deliberately set out to invade the privacy of an innocent stranger and expose him to who knows what, for money. It's a deception plot. There are not enough cute old market aunties in need to hide that.

Is he good at following through with this ugly scheme? No, because he actually likes the sculptor, is not used to being deceptive in the first place, and knows that what he's doing his wrong. His motives are already blurred and he himself probably doesn't realise he is sticking to this dishonest scheme as an excuse to spend more time with the artist. He is stressed out by his financial situation and has unethical, manipulative superiors who are willing to exploit his weaknesses and unfortunate circumstances for their own benefit. But he still made that selfish choice to place his own needs above those of an innocent person who played no part in his troubles.

Nice, lovely people, do awful things all the time. That's being human. I just wish his flaws were exposed in a way that was more real and less contrived. It's just a pet peeve of mine. I still enjoy the story, which is to the creator's credit, because the characters are all interesting and lovable (even when they express tired bigoted behaviour).

Exactly. I can't wait for Wonyoung's scheme to be exposed so we can get past it and figure out what his boss's obsession with Haejun is all about. At the same time, I'm dreading it, because Haejun--who fought against knowing Wonyoung--is falling in love so earnestly; I'm not looking forward to the pain of that moment. Won is bringing down on him *exactly* what Haejun has gone to great, great lengths to avoid. It's...just mean :(. Which is so obviously unlike Won it hurts to witness.

honestly just from the flashback we witnessed with Haejun the likelihood is that Wonyoung's boss is Haejun's ex or something of that nature I mean they look strikingly similar and his obsession with the "one that got away" = "I left you to marry up a rich girl/ advance my career" by collecting Haejun's art to feel that missed connection would tie everything together and make the most plot directive sense.

oh! I like how you write out your views on the chapters. Hope you write more in future.