You know that period where you spend time with someone and eventually have sex with someone to see if real, long lasting feelings develop? He's literally wanting him to just... ALREADY be in love. I guess all those "people around him" have made him forget that not everyone is automatically in love with him. The other problem is that his preconceived notions are getting in the way of anything actually happening, he isn't really wooing him, he's just refusing sex and making him worried with his mood swings... Pulling away isn't working, why would it when the guy isn't particularly into you yet? Try pushing. Woo him. Spend more time with him. Ahhh! ╮(￣▽￣)╭
He was a cop, so what was with the 1st time they had sex? He made the uke think he was his rapist stalker and then held him down and fucked him... I mean, i guess he literally asked for it, but like... Dude was drunk and showing confusion at what was going on while sobering. I don't think he assumed the guy was his rapist while asking him for sex, the cop just pieced together that he had a rape fetish from the stalker's notes there and the uke's willingness to just let him in. Even though he was passing out drunk (not like he was really coherent, he didn't even remember him in the morning and started accusing the cop of rape before the cop was like "no it's okay because i figured out you're into rape play on my own based on obscure evidence and you asked me for sex")... Then there was the anal in front of the stalker too... Yaoi logic at it's finest. Still hot af. (￣∇￣")
hmmmg I think it was within terms of 'play'. The guy had a fetish induced by his rape incident.
I'd say the man picked up on it. He wasn't that drunk, but I'd say that even when drunk you should be eligible to give consent. We shouldn't infantilize victims.
The only thing I don't believe is having amazing sex while being super drunk lol. But anyway, if that happened to me I'd be so down for it you wouldn't even know!
I'd be down for it too, but there are a few things i want to point out:
1. He was drunk enough that he passed out and was carried home.
2. He didn't even remember the guy when he woke up and was immediately accusing the guy of rape until the guy started saying he asked for it, which at that point is null.
3. If you look, he scared the shit out of the uke their first time, he implied he was the rapist before holding him down and fucking him. He didn't clear things up till he woke up.
Whether he had a kink or not, the situation was just really risky on the cop's part, he quite literally held him down and fucked him while he was confused about what was going down and then he was forced to have sex in front of the stalker while, again, protesting. It was 50/50, either the uke was going to view it as rape or he was going to be okay with it. Hell, the uke didn't even tell him about the fetish, the cop guessed it from the stalker's notes and how easy it was for the seme to get in his house. But yeah, it was pretty hot. ლ(´ڡ`ლ)
PREACH!! (●'◡'●)ﾉ
I see what you mean.
I'd say the rape accusation would be the result of him feeling shameful, but yeah in the end the way everything is constructed it is leading us on to a blurry context, on second thought it wasn't that safe/clearly consensual.
I'm struggling a bit with whether this is a story that one could say romanticizes rape or not, because I feel like it presents his kink/shame and the actual rape in different light and as different things although maybe influencing each other, but you are right that it is a bit blurry, even if intentional (perhaps to get us in the mood by making us unsure? lol)
What do you think? Would you call it that?
No, i wouldn't say it is romanticized rape because the rape fetish is portrayed as that, a fetish. The MC doesn't fall in love with the cop, he tries to become fuck buddies with him because he liked the rape play, even though it was basically rape because he was so drunk and didn't know the seme was playing. I guess it's like, the ultimate rape play?
As far as the portrayal, his kink and the actual rape WERE different, weren't they? He still describes the 1st time as "rape", he didn't want it, but from that experience he learned that he likes to be held down and fucked. It's a lot of conflicting emotions, while he didn't want the sex that time, it's implied that his kink developed during the rape because the guy (actually ended up being his senpai) sounded like the senpai he had a crush on back then. The sex with the cop was a thrill, he was ready for it after the initial... Shock? And was asking for more. The rape was rape, the rape play was dub-con because he ended up okay with it. He even tried to report the rape. He was stuck with this newfound urge for a long time after the rape unable to have sex, he became desperate for someone to help satisfy him (he actually says this, he says he wants anyone to come fuck him and then says even the stalker would do, he then goes on to say that, because of his kink, it turns him on knowing that his rapist is out there and that he could be raped), that's why everything is so blurry. Everything IS blurry, he's experiencing conflicting emotions and is so desperate for his kink to be satisfied that it's starting to look like he liked the 1st rape, but you can see that he only says those things about his rapist being on the other side of the door because after so long with no sex and under all that pressure, even quitting track, he's literally desperate for someone to fuck him.
At the end of the day, it really is hard to see the difference between when he was raped and the sex scene with the cop as, during both, the MC started out not wanting it. I guess the difference is in the emotions and overall context. The MC had literally been asking the cop to fuck him (though he didn't remember it), had actually begged for more once the sex started and, after the explanation from the cop, was okay with what happened after. He's even trying to hook up with him more. The senpai on the other hand terrifies him, he didn't show joy when he found out the senpai was his stalker/rapist, he tried to run and then pressed the panic button. He was scared of him after the rape rather than horny for more. He was actually traumatized by the senpai, but not by the cop.
Hahah ultimate rape play.
Yeah I understand what you mean. I found it a very interesting story because of its blurriness but also because of the fact that it didn't shy away for calling rape what it is.
A lot of the time rape in yaoi is given a ton of excuses to soften the action so that the couple can still end up together.
I liked that this was about his trauma, his shame, his developed fetish and finally about the difference in his traumatic experience and the sex he has later with the cop (guess the dub-con thing was more of the sake of the thrill? - maybe not so much for the character but more for the audience..? I also think if he wasnt that drunk he wouldnt have asked for sex, he'd be too ashamed, so it was a plot device in that way as well).
But yeah, thanks for throwing in your two cents, it's always great to hear someone else's reasoning of a work, even with yaoi hahah. I think works like yaoi are in a way the ultimate mirror of culture, since it is a lot more unfiltered and a lot more about what the author and the audience desires.
Thank you, and it was nice talking with you too. :^)
While i thought that guy was an asshole, i also thought the nape grab thing was hot. Guess i'm into alpha males? He's still a dick though... Can't say much for his personality.
I really thought there was going to be a story with him. I was so ready.
The story shows just the abusive dad at first to make us feel sorry for Sangwoo's mom and to make us think Sangwoo's dad is why he became a killer, but now it's shown that Sangwoo's dad was a normal guy and Sangwoo's mom was already crazy and cheating even before he started abusing her. He had been a normal, loving parent keeping her crazy in-check as shown in the scene where she goes to suffocate child Sangwoo for seemingly no reason when he comes in, realizes what's happening, freaks out, stops her and then yells "we said we were going to be happy!". Then it shows a flash forward, Sangwoo's dad became a drunk and started abusing mom (presumably BECAUSE of her crazy/the fact that she was cheating on him/etc), then another flash forward to mom poisoning dad and making Sangwoo think HE was responsible when she says "i'll keep your secret" and "i'll protect you". He blamed himself and she let him, then enforced that it was his fault. Now, presumably, she's trying to off Sangwoo to tie up the last loose end in her kill.
1) The abuse started earllier, we have the scene with the mother with bruises on her face and Sangwoo was still a little child, the scene with the lover happened when Sangwoo was 12.
2) A normal parent doesn't abuse the mother of his son in front of him, stop justify that piece of shit.
There are scenes scattered all throughout, it's up to you to place them right. The 1st scene seems to be the one where she suffocates him and then the next is the one with the lover as Sangwoo is still a child. The abuse came after, Sangwoo "pities mom" because she's insane and tried to kill him.
He became an alcoholic, he had an addiction that her crazy ass pushed him to. She ruined him like she did Sangwoo. Open your eyes, the manhwa has basically confirmed all this. It literally SHOWED him normal before the abuse and she JUST said he was "so cute when he proposed", HE was in love with HER.
If you want i can cite the page where Sangwoo's dad stops her from SMOTHERING THEIR SON randomly even before he started to abuse her. He says "we agreed we'd be happy!"... He was normal at first, he was trying to keep her crazy ass in check.
Or maybe it was his way to manipulate her in submission? "You said you liked it" and "we agreed we'd be happy" are typical abuser sentences as well. She seemed she didn't want that child and she wasn't happy.
Even Sangwoo can be kind and cute with Bum, yet he abused him multiple times. We found out that the Uncle himself was kind sometimes.
the scene with the lover, Sangwoo is 12. The scene is set the day before Sangwoo receives the letter from his classmate. In chapter 50 we found out they were starting middle school soon, so it means Sangwoo is at least 12. And he knew his father beat her up.
http://www.mangago.zone/read-manga/killing_stalking/mf/m_chapter-40/pg-17/
in the scene with the letter, Sangwoo's mom has bruises like rope burns on her legs, and the father isn't fat and drunk yet.
http://www.mangago.zone/read-manga/killing_stalking/mf/m_chapter-40/pg-42/
You don't keep a person in check abusing her, especially in front of your child. He didn't anything but beating her up until she decided to poison him. I don't excuse her but she deserves the same understanding of the situation of Sangwoo. I don't think Koogi gave Sangwoo reasons to be a torturer rapist and killer but no, the mom was just crazy and evil guys, it was all her fault! Terrible writing if that is the case.
"you don't keep a person in check by abusing her"- You either didn't understand what i said or are intentionally twisting things. The VERY 1ST memory within the timeline that was actually revealed just recently after a LONG string of memories that were supposed to make us feel sorry for Sangwoo's mother and think Sangwoo's dad was a monster shows the context of their relationship. He wasn't always abusive, he started out normal, this is what has been shown. You're just speculating that he abused her before the smothering scene. The POINT of that scene was to throw our preconceived notions out the window, it reveals that dad was actually the sane one at first and mom was crazy. It's during THIS time that he was "keeping her in check", not by abusing her. That came later. I made it clear that he became addicted to alcohol and turned to abuse.
About the scene, yes, it looks like she was already being abused before the cheating, but that is only slightly relevant as in that scene we see another instance of how she is actually cunning. She knows Sangwoo saw her having sex with another man and, guilt-free told the guy not to worry because Sangwoo "feels sorry for mommy". She's manipulative. She knows this abused little boy isn't going to tell on her and smiles about it. She plays on his love for her. Now she's doing the same, she acts motherly while poisoning him.
You changed a few details, but it doesn't really make a difference to what i was saying. I'm glad you fixed the timeline, but if you're presenting that as an argument against the narrative i described, it isn't an argument so much as a small change. The reveal is that she isn't as innocent as she seems. There is nothing implying she was abused during the smothering scene, there is nothing implying she was trying to "weaken" dad and Sangwoo.
Nobody said she wasn't manipulative though, and i have never thought after chapter 40 (the first flashback) she was completely innocent.
My main problem with the father is he didn't do anything to keep her in check. Sangwoo spent a lot of time alone with his mother, she could have killed him every moment. We don't see him doing anything at all until he started abusing her, at least he was neglectful, because I have the impression he knew she had some issues before she attempted to kill their son.
Actually I haven't said I'm sure she was trying to weaken them, but it could be the case. I'm sure she didn't like to be abused, yes she used the victim card to her advantage but I think she would have chosen differently rather being covered in bruises. Maybe she just wanted to kill him slowly and painfully, or maybe this was the only way for a weaker person to face the stronger abuser regularly beating her.
and tbh, I think of the uncle when people say " sangwoo's dad was normal,m she was her who made him an abuser". Even Bum's uncle seemed kind the first time he met Bum, if we should trust those memories. What did it happen he became a drunkard and a rapist? Bum made him like this? Or maybe the truth is the abusers aren't always violent and dangerous, and sometimes they even love their victims?
Bum's uncle and Sangwoo's dad aren't the same situation, Bum's uncle didn't have someone there driving him nuts. I agree that Sangwoo's mom should've been sent to a mental hospital, but i don't agree with you blaming him for NOT sending her. She was his WIFE, they had a KID and she deserves a fucking oscar for hee acting abilities. He probably thought he could work things out with her. Anyways, i respect your ability to speculate on things, but you're arguing what has explicitly been shown WITH speculation. I'm saying "this is what is shown" and you're saying "oh, well we don't know, it could've been like this". Yes, it could've been like anything, but right now we go off of what we've got. It'd be one thing if there was a solid basis behind these speculations, but it's really just "it could be this". Which is fine, i'm just not going to view it as a valid argument. A valid theory, not a valid argument. What has been shown explicitly is that dad was sane amd mom was insane, things got worse presumably because she was fucking crazy. There is no other cause given for why things could've gotten worse between them, right now the only problem between the two of them that we've been given is that she goes crazy every once in a while and tries to suffocate their kid. HE proposed to HER, HE loved HER. Cheating isn't a normal response to domestic abuse, normally you'd be too scared to cheat. It implies she was playing the dad. She chose poison instead of easier ways to kill him, this implies a want for prolonged suffering. He used to get black-out drunk, she had many opportunities. She didn't show joy at being free when he died, she let Sangwoo think he did it and then reinforced this idea in his head, she then went on to act motherly while poisoning Sangwoo. These events FOR SURE happened. No speculation. Only logical inferences where information is missing.
I see some, for lack of a better term, SJW's talking about "victim blaming" Sangwoo's mother and it really seems like they're taking her side because she's a woman. Did we read the same manhwa? You people keep pointing out that she was abused like we didn't JUST get a reveal that she was actually fucking nuts even before he started abusing her. It's actually implied that he turned abusive BECAUSE things weren't going well between them, but it showed that he was trying to live happily with them, remember? She went to smother child Sangwoo, he saw, freaked out and stopped her before saying "we said we were going to be happy together!". Then it showed him fatter and abusing her later. It's implied he was trying to make things work, but she drove him nuts, he turned to alcohol (fat belly) and THEN he turned abusive. She just said he was "so cute when he proposed to her", this implies HE loved HER as HE proposed to HER. The fact that she was sleeping with another man around that time (BEFORE he started to abuse her as, if you noticed, Sangwoo was still a child in that scene and dad isn't abusive till he gets older) implies she might've been playing around with Sangwoo's dad. Notice how good her acting skills were as she played the mother role while poisoning Sangwoo this chapter? I'm willing to bet that mom had been using those pills in dad's food for a bit too. He probably realized how she is (cheating on him, trying to kill their child and now we know she likes to poison food, she was their cook.) and over time lost his shit. What's worse is that these people are completely denying mom's direct connection to Sangwoo's current state "because she's a victim". She is LITERALLY the reason he is the way he is, you can see it in the way he never trusts women and views them as dirty things, in the way he really only kills women, in the way he dressed Bum as his mother and in the way he had to have Bum prove his love without a doubt before he started to open to him. Even THEN he only JUST separated Bum from the image of his mom in his head, that's what the 1st bj scene a few chapters back was about. It was him accepting Bum as Bum, not his mother. A 2nd, separate special person to him. Sangwoo said it himself, his father scared him, but it was his mother's tears and screams that really effected him. He wasn't okay with his dad's abuse, but it didn't matter enough to him to become a killer, what really effected him was his mom and she fucked him up.
When Sangwoo found out she had a lover, he said he waited to go to school with a fever because he was afraid his father would have beaten her. So he knew his father beat her up ( she's also shown covered in bruises in a scene with child sangwoo, while the scene with the lover Sangwoo is 12 )
The father was abusive before and you can't rule out he was abusing her even before Sangwoo was born. Maybe she didn't want the child, maybe she was forced in that marriage. I don't think Koogi would create a character evil for the sake of it. Women can abuse, manipulate and rape as well and it's important to show it, but she was really a victim and maybe she too has her reasons to be like that.
And she is not the only one to blame, because Sangwoo is also physically violent like his father to weaker persons like Bum, he did to Bum the same things his father did to his mother ( he forced Bum to eat at the small table just like his dad did to his mother) and now he's afraid to die like him, by the hands of the person who should love him.
There isn't anything indicating he abused her before that scene, that's just speculation on your part. What has been shown is that Sangwoo's dad was normal at first and trying to live happily with her and Sangwoo while keeping her from being crazy, then time passed and you can see he became and alcoholic and started to abuse her. That is the story shown, none of that speculation that she was abused before he was born or didn't want Sangwoo. She's just crazy. Whether he was abusive before the lover or not is only slightly relevant because what that scene shows is another instance of her real personality. She acts like a victim, but in actuality she's cunning. She let Sangwoo see her having sex with that guy and told the guy not to worry about being caught because "he pities mommy"... Besides, how is cheating a normal response to domestic abuse? Wouldn't she be scared to piss him off? No, she's being manipulative. Why'd she kill him with poison instead of stabbing him in his sleep? Why is she now trying to kill Sangwoo for seemingly no reason while acting motherly? She isn't a victim, she's a crazy bitch with a victim card to hide behind.
She doesn't let Sangwoo see her having sex with the guy, because she didn't even know Sangwoo was at home . She knows she can use the victim card with sangwoo, because Sangwoo knows his father beats her up, and his father really beats her up. She has bruises in several scenes, it's not that she invents that, he actually abused her!
I don't excuse the cheating and the manipulation over his child, but this doesn't mean she wasn't a victim of her husband.
And she used the poison for a simple reason, she was trying to get her husband weaker, because a weaker person can't physically hurt you. The same is doing with Sangwoo, he's a big guy and he looks like his father, so she poisons him little by little so she can have control over him.
She is not a criminal mastermind who wants to see the world burn. She is delusional and she maybe still dreams the day when she was happy, if she ever was. I'm not excusing her again, but it's clear she needed help and pity as well but nobody really helped her.
"she didn't let Sangwoo see her having sex with that guy"- You like winning the little battles, don't you? What i meant was that she knew he saw and didn't go to console him or worry about being caught. She told the guy not to worry because she knows that he feels bad for her, it's manipulative. She just let him feel like shit and didn't explain anything because she knew he wouldn't say anything. If you're looking at the scene, you know what i meant, picking apart my wording is getting no one anywhere.
"She is not some criminal mastermind"- I guess we'll see about that. I think it's pretty explicitly shown that she's just acting like a weak, innocent victim, especially within the last chapter. That... Was the reveal... There isn't really anything implying she was trying to "weaken" anybody, she was pretty carefree while she was making Sangwoo think it was his fault his dad died and when she saw him strung up about to be buried. It's in these instances where you get a glimpse of how she really is. If you want to believe she's poisoning Sangwoo to feel needed, fine, it's something that i could see being the case, but i'm going to point out that there is nothing implying that. Right now we're supposed to assume she is just crazy and is trying to kill Sangwoo.
How tf did his mom never make it clear to her young child that when he saw his close friend get into an accident that he didn't die? "yeah, lets just leave that confusing, because that wont damage any psyches"...
Am i the only one who would pretty much never jerk it with the door unlocked? I had too many close calls as a teenager... I mean, every once in a while i'll get into the mood enough that i lose some reasoning, but i'd never casually start jerking off RIGHT next to the door with it unlocked and the lights on...
Nah, because you don't really have to worry about it when you have your own place. I do before every bar night haha.
True, i guess i'm speaking of my own perspective, huh? I live in a 2 bedroom apartment, my brother and i are splitting our rent and we're taking care of our younger sister. Unfortunately i don't have the luxury :^)
Ow! My feelings! I kinda wish Bebe had returned to Isuzu's life in his human form, i also want to see his human life and love story!
No offense but what happened to your character dude? You used to pick fights all over the site and now you're writing posts with three exclamation marks, no less. Still, your arguments made sense that most, you were insightful.
It's weird to me that you ask something like that as an anonymous poster. It's just, why try to make someone else accountable for their posts here when you have zero accountability for your own? ╮(￣▽￣)╭
I don't act any one way, sometimes i like to debate, sometimes i post my thoughts and when the thoughts are about a fluffy (albeit sad) manga that i really enjoyed they"ll have a bit of the feeling instilled in me reflected in the thoughts. This one was beautiful and i was ecstatic after reading it, so my thoughts were on the lighter/more bubbly side and i threw in that it was an emotional rollercoaster by saying "ow! My feelings!".
There's some dumb anon spamming the comments section with out-of-context pro-Hyesung shit. Like, if you want to be pro-Hyesung, feel free, but don't try and downplay all he's done or paint Dojin the bad guy when he's been nothing but supportive while taking Hyesung's verbal abuse. The rape was an accident like all the ones Hyesung did to him. He literally says he "lost all sense of control" (actual quote from ch 20) and beats himself up over it while apologizing. To call Dojin a "rapist" for one accident quite literally out of his control is just rude to actual rapists who do so with intent.
say it louder for the people in the back please
(๑•ㅂ•)و✧ YES THANK YOU
Thank you two :^D