At this point i kinda just want Jinwoo to quit and leave. Like, why are you STILL there? Your co-workers talk shit on you even though you haven't done anything, you work your ass off only for your douche boss to decide to give all the credit to Santae, Santae is all too eager to take that credit while talking shit to your face in the process and your sex-fiend co-worker is constantly having his vivid gay sex fantasies about you projected to you which has LITERALLY been crippling. He can't even do his job as things are... And when he fails to do his job you can bet Santae is there to be a cunt about it. And yes, he IS being a cunt, we've seen what he's like outside of work and how he talks to his own friends about Jinwoo even though they don't know him. Yes, i saw him take and stash the drink Jinwoo said was "just for him". Yes, i know he's clearly followed Jinwoo since way long ago. None of that matters though because all of that was just supposed to be an excuse for his current behavior, "oh, he seems to really like him so maybe he's just a tsundere?", that is what those scenes were meant to make you think. The issue is, we KNOW now how Santae thinks and talks about Jinwoo and it's not flattering. He views Jinwoo as a plaything, something for his amusement. Regardless of how he felt in the past or how he might end up feeling, we KNOW that all of this cuntery right now is genuine and why should Jinwoo have to look past that because Santae might later realize he loves him? I want an apology or some kind of justice. While it may not be Santae's fault that he is seeing the fantasies, they ARE Santae's fantasies and since when has it ever been okay to not apologize for inconveniencing someone with your sex life? If someone's kid were to walk in on him fucking someone he'd apologize to the parents. If he was taking up the only stall in a bathroom to fuck some guy and someone had to wait outside for him to finish and the guy KNEW he was having sex in there, he'd have to apologize to the guy after. ANY circumstance in which your naked body is exposed to someone and it inconveniences them, the social reality is that you will apologize... Why should this be any different? Once it comes to light that THIS is the reason Jinwoo has been struggling so much and he realizes just how much he's inconvenienced Jinwoo not just on a personal level, but in his professional career as well, i fully expect a very heartfelt apology. It's only made worse by the fact that he has some scorching shit to say EVERY time he literally GIMPS his co-worker WHILE HE IS TRYING TO WORK. I want him to find out already, this is getting WAY too out of hand and it's literally making Jinwoo's life hell. That's another thing, so many people are like "it's not his fault because he isn't projecting the fantasies on purpose", i can't even with this logic... That's literally just not how social interaction works. Since when has it been okay to not apologize when something within your field of responsibility inconveniences someone else? If your tree fell into your neighbor's house after a storm, you'd apologize because, while it wasn't YOUR fault, it was still your tree and you inconvenienced them even if it was indirectly. If you let your kids run around at the grocery store and they start knocking a bunch of shit off the shelves and you see an employee start to pick it up you apologize because, while the kids are innocent and don't mean to be shits, you still indirectly caused that person an inconvenience. Honestly, i view Santae's inconvenience on a special little tier of it's own because it isn't just some casual thing, it is of a sexual nature and these types of inconveniences are always handled delicately as no one should HAVE to experience you sexually.
Did you really write all of this ?!!!!! omg (￣∇￣")
Yeah, is that all? Why leave this comment if you have no thoughts on what i said? Honest question, i just don't understand your motivation here... ╮(￣▽￣)╭
Yes, it's best if Jinwoo could just leave and resign but I think it's hard to leave after all that progress he has worked so hard on. If he have to leave, he might start from scratch again. Well, that's what I think... Poor Jinwoo though.
I've thought about that too, but think about it, what progress? His co-workers talk shit on him, he isn't in a particularly high position, his bosses are giving away the credit for his work and he can't PHYSICALLY work there anymore. Why stay at a job you can't physically do?
Yes, and if someone bump into you then it's expected for you both to say sorry etc etc etc.
Santae isn't aware that his fantasies are being projected onto Jinwoo though, we don't yet know what level of control Santae has over them either to decide whether he should be held accountable. Wasn't there some religious statue at the start that was the cause for all this? Both characters have their faults, and Jinwoo should report his work being stolen, as well as if he feels bullied by others. From what it seems though, Jinwoo is just bitter that he isn't in the 'top" positions at work (or when he was at school and uni too). In later chapters Santae's perspective should sort of change your view, as it shows Santae and Jinwoo at secondary school. Santae is pressured to be the academic best, whilst he looks out over to Jinwoo on the playing field who he says is 'always having fun" (or something like that). Santae gave up going to an American university like Yale (can't remember exactly) in order to follow (stalk ha) Jinwoo to their local university.... and work place.
Both characters aren't exactly likeable, to say the least.
I already went over half of what you just said and why i don't think any of it is an excuse for Sangtae to not take responsibility and apologize when he finds out. You said "yes, and if someone bumps... Etc etc etc", i'm not sure what this is here for, was this supposed to counter my examples of how it is socially expected of you to apologize if your sexuality is exposed to the unsuspecting person or if you inconvenience someone indirectly? Because it doesn't. Not sure what this was for, you just gave another example of how social interaction works, it didn't address anything i said. You said "Sangtae isn't aware... be held accountable", i addressed this word for word by saying that it doesn't matter whether or not ne knows or has control over it, that isn't the point, something in his field of responsibility inconvenienced another person and he should apologize once he finds out. That's literally just how social interaction works. I gave the tree example and the kids in the grocery example as references. When you inconvenience someone, even indirectly, you apologize. As far as "Jinwoo should report his work was stolen", to who? It was his boss who gave away the credit, it looked like it was a joint effort so Sangtae could just deny that Jinwoo played as big of a roll as he's claiming and if you're talking bringing in a 3rd party to help him get his credit back then how will he prove it? Again, his boss is against him and Sangtae isn't going to give it over... You said "Jinwoo is just bitter he isn't in the top positions at the company", did you read more than the intro to this manga? That isn't the issue at all... That is just PART of the explanation given for why Jinwoo hates Sangtae, the 2 reasons being that Jinwoo is competitive and that Sangtae has been a cookie-cutter case of bullying Jinwoo(the intro literally SHOWS Sangtae bullying Jinwoo when he bumps into him knocking him down and then smirks and talks shit). The problem presented is actually his work environment and then later the fantasies and the situations they put him in. It starts out telling us why he hates Sangtae, moves to present time and then starts the current events, this is the intro. The manga then moves on to show the boss give away Jinwoo's credit and the co-workers talking shit on Jinwoo before he gets drunk and pukes on the statue, which is when the next issue is introduced, the fantasies. The fantasies are where the biggest issue lie, they prevent Jinwoo from being even capable at work, which gets him shit from his already hateful work environment and they cause him to be confronted by Sangtae multiple times despite them being Sangtae's indirect fault. You can literally SEE Jinwoo caving under all this, it's not about his past with Sangtae or Sangtae being in 1st place, Sangtae just happens to be at the center of the 1st problem presented and the source of his 2nd problem. You brought up their shared past, i already addressed this word for word, it doesn't matter. How he used to feel and how he'll feel in the future don't change how he has been shown to feel NOW, while all of this is happening. The shared past is literally just there to make you wonder if he has a reason for the way he treats Jinwoo right now, "maybe he's a tsundere", but we already KNOW now how he feels about Jinwoo from his interactions with his friends. He isn't treating Jinwoo like shit at work and then fanboying about him off work and wishing they could be together or any fluffy crap like that, he isn't a tsundere. Sangtae is being a cunt to Jinwoo and then getting off work and referring to Jinwoo to his friends like he's just there for his amusement, his plaything. I wouldn't say that Jinwoo "isn't likeable", i'd say Sangtae isn't, but not Jinwoo. You're basing Jinwoo not being likeable on the rivalry he feels with Sangtae, which makes no sense. Why is Jinwoo not likeable because of his ambitions? In the 1st place, the only reason he treats Sangtae the way he does is because he always has something rude to say and because he was being actually bullied by him(the bitchy "banter" and it shows him knock Jinwoo down, smirk and then talk shit in the intro). You seem to mistakenly think Jinwoo is treating Sangtae the way he does ONLY because of the rivalry, but if you just actually read the manga that is made completely apparent that it isn't the case.
Correcting typos: 1. He*, not ne. 2. Sangtae could just say Jinwoo didn't* play as big a role* as he is saying.
okay I agree fully on Sangtae is a totall asshole that enjoy to stulk and abuse the MC, steal his job and make fun of him. he is annoying Seme that should suffer for what he is doing to the MC at this point, but he never does.
instead the MC is suffer his stupid sexual fantasy's, while I do agree Sexual fantasy is something very private and personal that no one have the right to see them other then you, cause it a fucking private shit! why does Sangtae have those so much time anyway?! can't he stop think about it for one minute?!! it become very annoying. but I do get Sangtae don't know the MC can see them yet. so now we wait until Sangtae will find out the MC can see them. and my guess is that Sangtae will laugh at the MC and won't apologize. cause he is that much of an asshole! he didn't apologize for taking his naked pic's and blackmail him, so why he would apologize for his gay fantasy's? hell I think he even try to make them into reality if he find out the MC can see them. that how much of a bastard Sangtae is. and I doubt he would change at this point.
Omg, I've literally been thinking these things for awhile now. Sangtae is just being horrible even if the fanatasies aren't direct it's his fault and Jiwoo has done nothong wrong and doesn't deserve his douchery! I'm totally on your side with this and I hope many of the points you made will happen like an apology and such! (=・ω・=)
Omg, I've literally been thinking these things for awhile now. Sangtae is just being horrible even if the fantasies aren't direct it's his fault and Jiwoo has done nothong wrong and doesn't deserve his douchery! I'm totally on your side with this and I hope many of the points you made will happen like an apology and such! (=・ω・=)
Okay..I love this. You put what I was thinking into words and explained it better than I ever could! Lately I have been put off on a lot of injustice within yaoi, and usually it’s the uke who’s the victim. Honestly though, just because the seme has a sob story that will be revealed later doesn’t justify what he has done and will continue to do. I would love an apology but I’ll probable still be bitter based on what some have said about the raws. Like at the end of the day the seme still gets exactly what he what’s with virtually no consequences for his actions, but I guess most people will enjoy as long as they have hot sex.
Who ARE you? ╮(￣▽￣)╭
LOL, a flat earth conference :^D
god i love your comment. Couldn't have said it better. I reRead it again and again and still find Suntae's action as harassment. Its not cute... its offensive. And Jinwoo has been suffering since school days. Jerk jerk jerk.
Well put my friend! Just to add a few points..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lu3rxI7qGRM
Pfft, you guys are great (⌒▽⌒)
Oh, thank you! Sorry, just saw this. I can agree with this, and i'm not a particularly whiny person. I read all the dark yaoi and i'm fine, but when a character in a cute/light-hearted/funny/sexy manga like this is being a dick, it is out of place when they suffer no consequences. It isn't a dark manga where everything that happens is bad so the bad/mean guy suffering no consequences is fine, it's a cute/light-hearted/funny/sexy manga where the bad guy's attitude is supposed to just be a plot device so it'll be jarring if he just gets away with all of it without an apology.
Yeah, there needs to be an apology. (￣ε(#￣)Σ
I wish a hot president-sama would come into MY life and uproot it like this... Nice clothes, free food, living with hot president-sama and a good job all for the low price of being tenderly fucked by the guy of my dreams and actually putting in effort at my sweet new job. Sign me the fuck up. Move me out of my house, make me quit my shitty job and make me more confident, i'll even call you daddy if you want~ ლ(´ڡ`ლ)
It's called high class Prostitution and it's not enjoyerable
I see what you're trying to say, but he doesn't really treat the uke like a prostitute so much as as a dependent lover. He's too gentle and he offered to help change his life around, not just buy him clothes for sex. THIS is what sounds appealing, i'd LOVE a hot, rich, dominant man to swoop me off my feet and take care of me.
Or A Service Escort. It all depends if both parties consent to their actions.
Man can I not agree with you more
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I read the spoiler, but still don't get why the twins would keep that a secret. Assuming that that guy's interpretation of the raws are right, i don't see how that would warrant all this secrecy or drama. The only thing i can think of is that maybe they don't want Min to know his sister used to be in a relationship with their father? But why? I mean, how old was his sister at the time, were she super young so it's like a pedophilia type thing? Apparently Min already knows about the sex change, so it's not that they're hiding, so it must be the relationship? But that isn't really Min's or the twins' business, assuming both parties were consenting and his then brother wasn't too young. Idk ╮(￣▽￣)╭
sorry but, where can i read the raws or spoilers? thank you **
Finawa posted the spoilers 8 comments down, Kit has a link to the raws posted in a reply under their comment 20 comments down.
It made it official~ It was obvious AF that Seungwon likes Heesu, but had never actually said it and was beating around the bush. No doubt now, not that there ever really was, no "friend" would be that happy just that you're in their house, watch you sleep for hours while thinking you're cute, and think that they'd let you stay forever. It's obvious that the girl he said he had a crush on was just a name off the top of his head :^D I think that when Heesu told him to talk to her that Seungwon told her to play along because he likes Heesu. "hey, so i told the guy i like that i like you as an excuse to get close to him through "dating advice" so play along please?". It'd explain why she laughed in the library too, she sees how gullible Heesu is. We'll see.
The rape(?) porn was hot, now let's see some quality character development. You can tell that the seme is already falling, can't wait till he starts being more gentle! Yuzuru is pretty cute personality-wise so i'm excited for him and glad he wasn't particularly hurt by what happened. I hope this ends up cute.
So, his father abused him and his teacher noticed that and tried to take care of him, but the guy she left him with(her fiance) was a pedophile who had raped several other teenagers and raped him as well? He went to school with his ass bleeding too... At 1st i thought he was saying his ass just bleeds for some reason, but wasn't it bleeding because of the teacher's fiance? Or was it the malnutrition at first and then he raped his already bleeding ass later? Idk... But this kid needs a fucking break and for someone actually useful to intervene. -seethes-
My god, i've been purified by that last chapter! And all of it, really, but that last chapter had a highly concentrated dose of cuteness that just DESTROYED me. -there's no crying happy face emote so imagine one-
For those who read the raws, it has been made clear that the sex was rape, but i see people asking "why wasn't it obviouse to everyone that it was rape in the 1st place"? I'll answer why JUST looking at ch 3 doesn't make it explicitly obvious that it's rape: Because he also said he was horny, i'll cite the page: ch 3, pg 25, Oono says "this is bad, i'm starting to feel the same as back then" referencing the last time he'd had a delusion where Kureshima had talked dirty to him and helped him finish by pressing his foot to Oono's dick. He is explicitly saying Kureshima is making him horny. Also, people mentioned him saying "no", let me cite the page for that so you can see what i mean with what i'm about to say: ch 3, pg 29, Oono is penetrated and the SFX here is "nooo!", there're a few things here i'd like to say. 1. That isn't Oono saying that, that is an SFX or sound effect. Other examples are "schlop, schlop"(used on pg 30 to indicate penetration, it's supposed to be the sound of Kureshima's dick going in and out) or "squish, squish", etc. and these are really at the translator's mercy. The translators decide what those say themselves and i'm assuming they put "nooo" there to make it more obvious that it does indeed end up being rape because you can't tell from just ch 3 that it is. The uke consented to the masturbation that started all this, he says himself (not an SFX) that he is getting horny when the seme starts talking dirty to him and he doesn't resist in ch 3. Also, Kureshima doesn't use any excessive force, the most he does is push him back onto the bed. 2. Let's assume that the SFX is actual dialogue from Oono and not just the translator giving us an emotional queue, just for argument's sake that this IS rape. You have to keep in mind that the SFX happens WHILE hes being penetrated for the 1st time. I don't know how much you know about anal sex, but it's pretty common knowledge that the 1st time is the hardest and usually hurts at least a little. So the "nooo", if it was actual dialogue, could've just as easily been because the penetration hurt a bit, this is how 1st time gay anal is and its actually better to keep thrusting because the continued movement opens them up quicker. That's why in a lot of yaoi manga the seme will say "this may hurt for a little, but try to just bear with it for a sec", if you stop thrusting the hole tightens and it hurts you both when you're pulling your dick out before going back in because of the friction, if you keep thrusting the hole will stay loose and get soft and puffy. Once it's loose you can go at a slower pace without fear of the hole tightening again. It makes sense that he wouldn't pull out out when Oono says "nooo" if he was trying to make it as painless for him as possible. If he'd pulled out he'd have hurt him on the way out and would've had to re-enter and start the loosening again. Again, the uke is horny, as he himself says, the seme knows he is because he's hard and the uke isn't resisting so why would he assume "oh no, i'm raping him" and pull out?
As a side note, i don't think Kureshima was being as much of a bastard as people are thinking. There're 2 things in ch 3 that he did that are definitely questionable, these are 1. He coerced Oono into masturbation. This one is a bit of a gray area... His METHOD of coercion is the thing, he didn't physically force Oono or threaten to hurt Oono/anyone important to him if he didn't masturbate, he just threatened to leave and stop talking to him. Don't get me wrong, this was totally a dick move, but Oono was left with the choice not to do it. It was Coercion, but a very mild form of it in which he left Oono a choice to say no with low risk. 2. He wasn't as gentle as he could've been with Oono during the penetration. To be clear, you can go back and see for yourself that at no point did he physically force Oono, he never held him down or anything. What i mean by this isn't that he forced Oono, but that he could've eased his dick in instead of going inside in one thrust. This, to me, is another gray area. Him not being as gentle as he could be is objectively a dick move, but if you consider the circumstances you can kinda see why he'd choose speed over care. He was having sex with his straight crush, he had successfully got him horny through delusions. Keep in mind that he KNOWS Oono is imaging the two of them at this point, he went out of his way to shift Oono's delusions from being about Sasaki to being about the two of them, that is what the dirty talk during the delusion was about, shifting it from Sasaki to Kureshima. Meaning he KNOWS that his crush is hard, he can see it, and he KNOWS that his crush is hard imagining being touched by him. If that isn't a green light to take things further i don't know what is. So, he pushes him down onto the bed and starts touching his nipples like he'd been saying he wanted to do. It makes sense to do what Oono found hot enough to get hard about so he begins touching Oono's nipples, just like he'd been dirty talking to Oono about which is where Oono would be in the delusion. Oono goes from imagining his nipples being touched to them actually being touched, this keeps the horny mood going and Kureshima decided to finger him while he's distracted by his nipples and then fuck him when he's loose. Do you see what i mean? Kureshima was just following the flow, i don't think he was actively raping Oono, i think he was just having sex with the guy he likes. This is further supported in ch 4 when Oono kicks Kureshima and Kureshima stops, he doesn't force Oono to continue or hold him down and fuck him. He stops when he sees that Oono no longer wants it.
Wow, yeah everything you said here and in the other comment seems to match up pretty well. Dick move for seme to sHove it unprepared but yeah, I don't think it was rape per se.
Thanks! It took a LOT of looking at ch 3 and thinking about it from their perspectives. (￣∇￣")
I was gonna say, I don't think you're suggesting it for shock value, some yaoi manga has RAPE, don't get me wrong, it can happen. But I think this story has more to it, as you so well explained. ╮(￣▽￣)╭
"shock value"? I'm not sure what you mean by that, but you're right, these're my honest thoughts after serious contemplation.
I mean I've gone through other comments and some people have considered you as trolling or trying to get a negative response, whereas I figured you'd done your research ahaha
Oh, yeah... Though anyone who has called me a "troll" only did so because i disagreed with them and brought forward a good argument while doing so. If you look back, my 1st comment was that it wasn't rape at all, i got a bunch of dislikes and hate because i guess a bunch of people looked at the raws and saw the kick. I was just basing my opinion on ch 3 at the time... I decided to read the raws myself and form my own opinion on what i saw and even corrected my original opinion that it wasn't rape to that: while it was rape, i only think it was from Oono's PoV, i really don't think Kureshima was thinking in his head "i'm raping him right now", and that even that might've been influenced by the suddenness of the sex, maybe had Kureshima taken his time things would've been emotionally more bearable and Oono wouldn't have kicked Kureshima off him and been so hurt after. You can see that Oono was at least low-key becoming attracted to Kureshima even before the rape, he has trouble imagining Sasaki and gets horny when Kureshima is dirty talking to him. Oono says he has trouble imagining Sasaki because Kureshima is watching, but said that nervously like it is an excuse. He had been cumming in class around students every day... He had done it with Kureshima watching before too. It was a statement made in denial because he is confused about his gay feelings. If i were just trolling why would i admit i was wrong about my 1st comment? They just got butthurt and decided to call me names when they had no argument. ╮(￣▽￣)╭
i'm sorry i accidentally pressed thumb down (ーー;)
You're fine :^D
i appreciate all the explanation you have done, but this was ACTUAL rape. All the things you used as arguments for supporting that it isn't make it even worse. He is using manipulation in it's finest ways since the first time he saw him and decided to play him. Yes, he has a crush on him but that does not eman he can do anything without consent. I t was quite obvious Oono was uncomfortable and the delusions can not be used as excuses because they put the uke in a vulnerable state in which he can't control his thoughts and the seme used that. I really don't know how this can be consent in any way. Oono was manipulated and pressured into doing these things and this would be considered very bad in real life, but people get through with it because they just manipulate and abuse people and trust me emotional abuse leaves much bigger scars then just getting beaten up. Right now, this can take the stereotypical "uke was raped, but still ends up with seme, without actually resolving such an important issue and everything is fluffy again" or the "uke is gonna break and become dependent and tied down to the seme"
I'm writing you a book :^D Please read this, i put a lot of effort in! Don't take anything offensively, caps aren't me yelling, just me putting emphasis on words! Okay: Your entire response is based on that "Oono was in a vulnerable state in which he can't control his thoughts". There is nothing proving or even indicating that he can't function normally during his delusions. I'd actually like to point out that there is evidence in abundance to the contrary as he'd been masturbating in class each day, meaning he must've felt some measure of security that he'd not get caught incapacitated while in a delusion. I'd also like to point out that during the delusion in the rape scene Oono is talking with Kureshima while getting started, he is actively starting his delusion and talking to Kureshima at the same time, meaning he is coherent. He actually does this throughout the entire manga, if he wasn't coherent during his delusions then how would he imagine what Kureshima is saying? He wouldn't be able to hear him. I'll submit to you saying 2 things: 1. "he is using manipulation since he 1st met him", since i agree that Kureshima is a manipulative seme (though really not to any dangerous degree, his manipulations are just kickstarts to get Oono horny through dirty talking), what i disagree with however is that this means he is an all around bad guy. And 2: that the sex scene in ch 3 "is ACTUAL rape", i'll agree for now as, while i don't think Kureshima was intentionally raping Oono, if it was a bad experience once he got penetrated (i think he was fine till then, he only kicks Kureshima after being penetrated, he doesn't even resist before) then it was rape as he started to not want it when anal was involved, but couldn't kick him off in time to prevent it. Future chapters may change my mind on whether or not this was rape, depends on what Oono has to say. I had raised the argument that Kureshima only really seems to "manipulate" (put in quotes for a reason i'll explain after this sentence) Oono at key points, i'd like to add onto this and bring something forward, Kureshima has always Left Oono a choice before resorting to "threats" (i'll explain why this is in quotes further down), he always asks (step 1) and then tries to talk him into it (step 2) before (step 3) "threatening" him (i put this in quotes because any time he "threatens" Oono he never does it in an intimidating way, he's always smiling and the "threat" is always said in a joking way). Let me explain why i put manipulate in quotes: i think that the manipulation is actually in Oono's head(remember this, it's the reason i'm about to go over these instances in the manga). I'll explain this by giving examples for you to look at, the instances of the "threats".
1. Look back at chapter 1 pgs 22-33 (you should look at these pages for context so it's easier to understand), the first "manipulation" starts here. The events from pages 22-33 are as follows: Kureshima tells Oono that he has observed that Oono masturbates in class and asks how he does it without touching himself, Oono tells him about his delusions and gives an example of how they work through explaining how he can imagine the taste of a beverage. This (ch 1, pg 23) is where Oono asks Kureshima not to tell anyone about the delusions and Kureshima agrees under the condition that he shows him the delusions in action (he asks this pretty lightly, this is step 1). Oono is surprised an doesn't know what to say when Kureshima continues to try to talk him into it (step 2) saying "come on, i really wanna see it". Oono is shocked and doesn't know what to say (but doesn't refuse btw, he just stays silent). Kureshima could've threatened to expose the delusions here to get what he wants, but instead the conversation moves on to Sasaki which is when Kureshima reveals that it is Sasaki Oono masturbates to in class. kureshima then "threatens" Oono by saying "hmm... shall we let the whole class know?", but take a look at the page (ch 1, pg 27). If you notice, Kureshima is smiling when he says this and the dialogue here specifically is italicized like it's supposed to be said jokingly. A "this is hilarious, i found your weakness so i'll flaunt it a little" type thing, i think he was making a harmless joke. Oono then refuses saying "i wont in a place like this", this is the interesting part, Kureshima had the upper hand, he could've kept on with the threat and forced Oono to show him the delusion, but instead HE DROPS THE THREAT ENTIRELY and starts to talk dirty to Oono, Oono gets horny and then Kureshima puts his foot on Oono's dick to help him finish. Kureshima then just leaves, no threats or anything.
2. The next bit of "manipulation" comes in ch 2, pgs 8-24(again, you may want to read the pages for context). The events are as follows: First i'll discuss the events from pgs 8-11: Kureshima takes Oono to eat lunch, they talk for a bit and Kureshima talks dirty to Oono very briefly as a joke, to tease him because of the delusions. Oono gets hard and Kureshima grabs his erection before saying "dude, i'm just teasing you". This isn't a particularly important part, i just wanted to explain it because it might look to some like he got him hard and grabbed his erection with ulterior motives, but i think he was just teasing him like he said. Pgs 19-24 are where the "manipulation" takes place, the events are as follows: Kureshima gets jealous of Sasaki getting so close to Oono so he either accidentally spills his drink on Oono or does it on purpose. He yelled in surprise when it fell over so i think accident? Kureshima takes Oono to the restroom to dry his pants. Here is where it starts. Kureshima's goal is to help Oono dry his pants, at first he asks him to take them off so he can (step 1), Oono gets embarrassed and refuses so Kureshima tries to talk him into letting him dry them (step 2) by saying he'll just dry them while they're still on if he wont take them off.Oono is still embarrassed and refuses saying he can do it himself so Kureshima (step 3) "threatens" Oono saying "come on now, behave or i'll expose you and your habit of havin perverse delusions" ". This "threat" is a gray area, here he threatened to expose the delusions, something he promised not to do, but take a look at the page (ch 2, pg 22), if you look you'll see that Kureshima is smiling and coming across really friendly while he says this and again the dialogue is italicized here specifically to indicate he is saying it jokingly. I think he isn't being serious with this "threat", i'd even say it's obvious he's not.
3. Now, the last bit of "manipulation" comes before the infamous rape scene when Kureshima gets Oono to masturbate. This scene is from ch 3, pg 4-30(yes, almost the entire chapter. This entire chapter is important to read as it shows Sasaki is contacting Oono more and this is making Kureshima jealous). The events are as follows: on pg 4 i'd like to point out Oono's dialogue "Sasaki has started talking to me more often", from here on it shows that the two of them have actually been talking more even to the point of her fixing Oono's hair when it shows Oono's 2nd fit of jealousy involving Sasaki (1st was in ch 2 when he spilled the drink on accident) when he ruffles Oono's just combed hair. Kureshima and Oono go about their school day till pg 9 where it shows Oono's affinity towards Kureshima increasing when he says "now i get lonely when i'm alone. Why?". Oono brings Kureshima to his house and the two of them go up to Oono's room. On page 11 Oono just starts undressing without thinking and this seems to have some effect on Kureshima, i'm assuming it makes him a little horny, but not much as on pg 12 he starts digging through Oono's phone and sees some of Sasaki's texts to Oono, one of them being what looks like an invite to an aquarium date. On pg 13 Kureshima asks Oono why he hasn't replied to Sasaki about the date, you have to keep in mind that he has feelings for Oono at this point so it would seem he was gauging things. "is he going to date her, do i have a chance still?", that type of thing. He concludes that Oono is "inexperienced in both love and friendship". "inexperience" will only buy so much time though, eventually Oono WILL muster up the courage to reply to her so he decides to try and turn the mood sexy now that he knows Oono hasn't replied to Sasaki yet, on pg 15 Kureshima asks Oono "recently, you haven't been doing it, right?... Perhaps since THAT day?". Here is the "manipulation", on page 17 (Note: the entire page is italicized so you can tell from that plus the flow of the conversation and Oono's face that pg 17 is supposed to be a joke.) Kureshima asks (step 1) "why don't you do it now? I want to watch". Oono says "of course i'd refuse" so Kureshima tries to convince him saying "if you wont do it i'll let out your little secret" (again, look at pg 17 to see that this isn't a serious threat) and continues on to say that "he'll stop talking to Oono because he wont be able to have his delusions at his leisure while Kureshima is around". On pg 18 Oono replies saying "but... I didn't say anything..." (here he is saying he didn't say anything like that because Kureshima is saying that Oono can't have his delusions whenever he wants like he used to while he is around) before being interrupted by Kureshima saying "So stop your whining and just do it, do it Oono". He says this while smiling, i think when Oono went to say he "didn't say anything like that" it made Kureshima happy because that means that Oono can have sex delusions while he's around which might mean he has a chance, hence the smiling. At the middle if pg 18 Oono isn't sure what to do because he just said he didn't have a problem with Kureshima being around during the delusions, but he is still not sure if he wants to because he's straight and has never though about letting a guy watch him masturbate before. At the bottom of pg 18 Kureshima sees Oono indecision and sighs, after all, Oono had JUST said he's fine with it. On pg 19 Kureshima decides to "threaten" (step 3) him by saying "you're just dawdling so i'm going home". Oono says he'll do it and masturbates for him. I really think it was consensual on both sides once Kureshima started to dirty talk him up until he penetrated Oono specifically with his dick because Oono doesn't struggle even while he is being fingered while his nipples are being teased, it wasn't until his penis went in that Oono struggled and kicked him off. With that in mind, From here you should read my analysis of the actual sex scene up above. My original post that these replies are under.
Now, i believe i've shown you how his "manipulation" is always a 3 step process and how he's never really serious about his "threats" except during the rape scene, there he was really going to leave, but i don't think he was going to stop talking to him. I think that all of his "threats" were jokes and that the "threat" in the rape scene was a very minimal form of coercion. All he was threatening to do was go home... How is that a real threat that "forced" Oono to masturbate for him? I bring these "manipulation"s up for a reason, i had said that i think they're all in Oono's head, i'd like to add onto this and say that what i mean is that it is the insecurities in Oono's mind that make him THINK Kureshima is blackmailing him when the blackmails are just jokes up until the rape scene in the 3rd chapter and even that "threat" was weak at best and left Oono the choice to say no, this is evidenced by 2 things: 1. what i just pointed out, that the "threats" are all fake or mild and 2. by some dialogue i'll quote: in ch 1, pg 26 Oono says "it's still better if he did not find out", context is key here as Oono says this AFTER Kureshima had already said he wouldn't tell anyone about the delusions, this shows that he's afraid of Kureshima even KNOWING about them regardless of the fact that he said he wouldn't tell. In ch 2, pgs 3-7 you literally SEE Oono freaking out thinking that Kureshima probably told everyone/is going to tell everyone even though he said he wouldn't. And in Ch 2, pg 8 Oono says "Kureshima doesn't really seem to be the pushy type... But he's got something on me so i can't really refuse him", here he is saying that he doesn't think Kureshima would blackmail him, but that he feels like he can't say no. He is literally saying its in his head.
^ this.
Just because someone is aroused doesn't mean they can't be raped. So many rape myths on this site fml.
I don't think you're properly understanding that argument, when people say "they were aroused so it wasn't sex" they're almost always saying that in an emotional context, not physical. No one here thinks that if you're physically aroused that it isn't rape, the argument is that the "victim" ACTUALLY wanted to have sex with the "abuser" because they like them. I use the words "victim" and "abuser" lightly here because the entire idea is that it wasn't rape in the 1st place, just didn't know what else to call them here. The only times this argument is even brought up is during the gray areas in yaoi like ch 3 in this manga. It shows Oono starting to like Kureshima, whether platonically or romantically, despite Kureshima making their relationship sexual multiple times. Can you see why people might think, "maybe this scene isn't rape?" I mean, he's not struggling, he said he's horny, the plot up till now has built Oono's affinity towards Kureshima and to top it all off Oono never actually says no, that's just an SFX that the translator put there and could be a misrepresentation of what's actually happening.".
"they were aroused so it wasn't rape*" is what i meant there, not sex.
soooo....all of those teenage guys who manipulate girls into their beds (or the backseat of their cars) are rapists as well? Good lord, that would make a large population of males (and possibly some females) rapists by your standards. Girls get tricked into having sex all the time. "If you don't sleep with me, then we're through!" She may not be ready to have sex, but that threat, that manipulation if you will, pressured her into having sex. And she may regret it later, but that doesn't make it rape. It makes the guy an @$$ and the girl a bit of an idiot (I'll be nice and say she's too young to be making adult decisions).
I'm withholding judgement on the whole rape question until I read the whole thing
I have to say that i agree with this, it sounds shitty, but it's reality. There aren't only rapists, there're also assholes too. I think a lot of less critical, logical people conflate these two, which is a problem because if you were to ask any rape victim what type they'd rather have sex with it'd always be the asshole type because she has a choice to say no. Rapists have a very specific mindset, they ARE going to get what they want when they get you alone while as an asshole is just going to be pushy. This manga being 1 such example, people are calling Kureshima a rapist which, as of right now, isn't accurate. Kureshima never forced Oono, he gave him a choice the entire time, he just made the choice seem shitty. He talked him into it. Then when he was masturbating he got Oono horny and moved on to sex. Honestly, i consider Kureshima a mild case of the asshole type because at least he did it out of love and didn't like hold him down or try to talk him into continuing when Oono kicks him off in ch 4. They were already having sex and Kureshima knows now that his "i'll leave" threat works, he could've been like "you really want to kick me off? All right, but its your choice, you're choosing to not be in my life anymore", but instead he stops and leaves. What happened was that he talked Oono into masturbation, got him horny, moved onto sex and then left stopped when he saw Oono no longer wanted it. That's not rape. Do i think Oono WAS raped? Maybe. Right now i'm saying yes because i saw the kick in ch 4 and the angst over the sex, but i don't understand korean and he could be saying anything there. The future chapters will decide for me whether it was rape or if the translator just labelled it rape and threw in rapey SFXs like "nooo!" to drive their interpretation home. If those dark panels are him upset about the sex, then i'll say that partway through the sex it became rape, up until he was penetrated he wanted it. If those panels are actually him getting all depressed because he isn't sure if Kureshima actually likes him and he thinks he was played with, then it wasn't rape.
Hmm, new perspective. I'll contemplate. However, I do believe in "one does not simply surprise butt sex."
Most sex is spontaneous. Never mind manga, you wont often find people who consciously plan out a sex schedule even in real life. Most sex is a surprise, usually it is a good surprise. My argument here is that it was a good surprise for Oono at least until the penetration. He was iffy about masturbating for Kureshima, but once Kureshima got him horny he was fine. My evidence is that he literally says himself that he's getting horny (page and quote above) and doesn't resist or try to stop Kureshima till he's been penetrated. I honestly think he'd have been shocked, but only embarrassed if Kureshima had stopped at fingering him. I think the penetration is where he crossed the line, hence Oono ONLY kicking him AFTER being penetrated, not even when he was fingered. I'd say the flow was fine, he convinced Oono to masturbate, got him horny with dirty talk and then when Oono was feeling good he slipped his fingers in and then penetrated when he was loose. Pretty standard.
This is what i understood from chapter 1: Minase (MC), fell in love with his younger brother(Tetsuo)'s friend Takashi, but had to move away. Flash forward to current time. -texts between Tetsuo and Minase about Takashi arriving soon- Shirahashi (dorm manager and friend of Minase) is introduced shortly before a new dormmate, Fujiwara Yukifumi, is introduced as well. There seems to be emphasis on the fact that Yukifumi sounds like Tetsuo and Minase thinks he is still in love with Takashi. Takashi arrives shortly after and the dormmates are split with Shirahashi and Yukifumi in one room and Minase and Takashi in another. -texts between Minase and Tetsuo with Tetsuo telling Minase he's too busy to come visit- Minase and Takashi are going to bed when they hear noises from the room next door, they get as far as the door to the room before deciding to go back to their room when they look in the room, but see no one there. There is a smell though. The next morning the four of them meet up to eat and discuss Minase's sweets-making hobby, it is revealed that he does it because "the person he likes wanted homemade sweets" which actually ends up being a misunderstanding because Takashi actually doesn't like sweets. It is revealed that Minase has a case of amnesia or maybe short term memory loss, he had thought Takashi liked sweets because he came over holding sweets back when they were kids, but he'd actually forgotten it was Takashi's mom who sent them over. Minase tells Shirahashi about the noises he and Takashi had heard last night to which Shirahashi replies saying "if you hear it again tell me right away". Minase and Takashi are going to bed when they hear the noises again, Takashi suggests that maybe it is someone having sex as he'd heard rumors of a "sex room" around there. Minase and Takashi resolve to go confirm that it's sex so as not to false alarm Shirahashi and see 2 men having sex in there(honestly, it looks pretty obviously like Shirahashi and Yukifumi). They go back to their room and resolve to tell Shirahashi tomorrow when Takashi suddenly kisses Minase before heading to sleep. -End of Ch 1-
I don't think it was Shirashi having sex in the room next to them. Why would he say beforehand "if it continues tell me right away" and then get caught by Takashi and Minase again rightaway. Also on page 8 of chapter 2 it looks like Shirashi scolded some other students of using the room for sex.
At least that's how I got it. But the plot seems to be a bit messy tho.
You could be right? We'll see.
Hayato was originally straight, Hayato's older brother was gay and had a boyfriend, Hayato originally couldn't understand why anyone would want to be gay. So far, what has been said is that back then, Hayato's brother's boyfriend was Urabe's older brother. At some point Hayato ended up in a relationship with Urabe's older brother as well, at the same time that his older brother was dating him. What has ALSO been said however, is that "he didn't get along with his aniki" (ch 2, pg 4), if they don't talk often then there's no reason to assume he knew who his brother's boyfriend was (Urabe's older brother). Now, since Hayato originally couldn't understand "how he (his brother) could properly get a hard on"(ch 2, pg 4) having sex with guys, why would anyone assume that Hayato is the one who seduced Urabe's older brother? It's entirely more likely that Urabe's older brother seduced Hayato while he was still dating Hayato's older brother and Hayato didn't know they were dating. It doesn't JUST say that they had sex, it shows Hayato happy being with Urabe's older brother, he's smiling (ch 2, pg 25). If he knew he was with his brother's boyfriend don't you think he'd be feeling guilty? It seems to me that Urabe's older brother is just a dick, as his own brother says (ch 2, pg28), and was going out of his way to two-time the 2 brothers without either aware. Somehow, the affair was discovered, my bet is that Hayato's brother found out and outed Urabe's older brother to his parents as payback, then left since he never got along with Hayato in the first place. With Urabe's older brother outed, his conservative parent's couldn't stand the thought of their son being gay, so Urabe's older brother was disowned. The parents are worried that their other son might be gay too and i guess the stress of this causes them to decide to divorce. Flash forward to current times, Hayato has moved on and fallen for a new guy, Kazunori. Kazunori's "crush" seems to be Urabe, who is holding a grudge against Hayato for his family falling apart. Urabe seeks to threaten Hayato with their shared past to "Just once. Let me fuck you. You have no right to say no" (ch 2, pgs 31-32 ). Urabe wants to confirm his sexuality because his parents are putting pressure on him worried that he might be gay like his older brother. He wants to know his sexuality so he can "stop worrying about whether or not his parents will disown him too" (ch 2, pg 33). If he discovers that he's gay, he'll go out himself to his parents to get the disowning out of the way. As you can see, the fault doesn't lie with Hayato for Urabe's family falling apart, it is the parents' fault for tearing their own family apart by reacting to their older son's sexuality the way they did. Let's put the affair aside, pretend it never happened. Urabe's brother was going to continue on secretly gay, he was going to get into different relationships regardless, with each giving the possibility that he'd be outed since he apparently has no issues with cheating. It was only a matter of time before his parents would find out and things'd go the same way. See? It doesn't matter WHO was in Hayato's spot, the common factors here are Urabe's brother and their parents. Urabe's brother is at fault for the cheating, not Hayato. Urabe's parents are responsible for the divorce, since they valued their feelings of disgust at their son's sexuality over keeping their family whole and Urabe's current attitude, since they are pressuring him about whether or not hes gay and giving him the idea that they'll disown him. I'll say it again, Urabe's brother is at fault for the cheating, Urabe's parents are at fault for everything involving Urabe's home life. Not Hayato.
I couldn't agree more(づ￣ ³￣)づ
I feel so bad for Hayato for being in this situation. he has already been trough so much and now, when he is dealing with his unrequited love (for now ლ(´ڡ`ლ)), he has to deal with Urabe's shit. I really hope Kazunori will soon realize he has feeling for Hayato as well and teach Urabe a lesson he will not forgetヽ(`Д´)ﾉ I mean I do pity the guy a bit for his family situation, it's not his fault he has crappy parents and a even shitier brother, but that is no reason to treat others like that （￣へ￣）
Well said! I totally agree with you on every point you made but let me add in another point. From the chapter i am assuming that Urabe knows that Kazunori is gay because he is with Hayato a lot of the time. But then again they haven't "Done it" yet so it is my assumption. Now at the end Kazunori could have heard all or some of the exchange from the stair case and think either three things (which are cliche plots); 1) Kazunori confronts Hayato into telling him what really happened between the both older brothers and then defends him from Urabe or 2) Kazunori get mad that Hayato had sex(or didn't have sex) with Urabe, knowing Kazunori has a crush on the guy, <- This seems unlikly to happen because Kazunori heard the exchange but i don know how much he knows. Then there is 3) Kazunori doesn't say anything for a while because he doesn't know how to bring it up and distance himself from Hayato bringing their friendship(?) to a halt, then is too late when Hayato confronts Urabe again he hopes that if he gets away from Urabe Kazunori will come back to his side. I think number 3 is the most likely scenario because we know Urabe is a desperate bitch and we are to never assume that characters like him in his situation would act logically. (￣∇￣")
Knowing he was straight, I don’t understand why he dated a guy. I feel sorry for his brother. The next ch will tell us the true about this relationship.
I feel sorry for the both of them... There isn't really any reason to feel sorry for his brother more than Hayato, all we know is that they slept with the same person. We have no context behind the sex. We don't know if Hayato knew Urabe's brother was his older brother's boyfriend. We don't know how exactly Urabe's brother and Hayato ended up dating either, i find it entirely more likely just based on these chapters alone that neither brother knew they were being two-timed. As you yourself just said, Hayato used to consider himself as "straight", so Urabe's brother must have hit on Hayato, not the other way around. It must've also been while he was still dating the older brother too since we know for a fact that he was with both at the same time. Idk, it just seems to be a very stubborn and baseless reply for you to just say "i feel sorry for his brother" considering there isn't any reason so far to pity either brother more.
Sorry, just saw you reply. I think that Kazunori places great value in morals, he seems to be a very upright and straightforward person, i think he'll step in and tell Urabe to back down because that all happened pretty distantly in the past with Hayato trying to move on and because if anyone really thinks about it for a second there isn't really any way to blame Hayato for his family breaking apart... If it wasn't Hayato he got caught with, it was going to be SOMEONE eventually and things would've went the same way. Urabe's brother was just too reckless to not get outed, who two-times 2 brothers while being in the closet? Lol. Hayato was clearly just in a relationship with the guy he likes from his PoV, i doubt he knew he was his brother's boyfriend... The two of them never talked, he'd just occasionally hear his brother having sex, that's the only reason he even knew his brother had sex with guys. In the scene where Hayato was about to have sex with that girl he even says he "doesn't know" when that girl asks if his brother is gay. He talks with him so little that he hasn't been able to confront him about the sex he keeps hearing. He doesn't even know if his brother is gay, he just knows that he hears him having sex with guys. If they talk so little, how would he know who his brother's boyfriend is? I think Kazunori will take Hayato's side and they will start dating now that he heard Hayato loves him. Unless he didn't hear some parts. But i think he heard it all, its to convenient a plot device for him not to have heard it all as its exactly whats needed to progress their relationship. We'll see! ヾ(☆▽☆)
I love conversations like this. Thank you for replying to me with your thoughts! I hope we can continue with our convo in the next chapters to come (=^w^)/"
Me too :^)