I recommend you to read the "The Villainess Lives Twice!"
In other Asian novels the saint/heroine/false villainess would usually heal or make the typical cruel sadistic narcisstic immature goodlooking alphahole a better man through naive unconditional love no matter how bad he is... YIKES
But in this story the author is not sugarcoding or lenient towards a "prince" called Lawrence and this time the characters around him don't take his bullshits! It is made very clear that this shiny shithole only made it to the top because he had competent support!
If you ve read "The Abandoned Empress", Suddenly Became a Princess One Day", "I Became a Maid in a TL Novel" or other stories that involves an abusive (op) bloody tyrant ML character that the suporting or side characters are so stupidly loyal to him that they have any excuse for his shitty behaviour like almost killing the MC in cold blood or the way he can easily harm and dispose anyone who annoys him.
You know this manhua is one of very few Asian stories that has no op stupid psychotic antagonists with plot armors!
If you prefer a much stronger progressive MC: I recommend BIG JO in WEBTOON!
That MC hit the mark about authors writing illogical soapy stories.
http://www.mangago.zone/read-manga/cheating_men_must_die/hs/mpn_chapter-2290795/pg-13/
What a spunky fierce modest commoner girl as a MC :)
She is not afraid to talk back to royalty.
You ve seen the archetype in many Japanese and Korean isekai novels before:
Cold, emotional unavaible, sadistic, perfect, superior, arrogant, bored and obsessive.
Basically a shitty tsundere guy.
Everyone who is aware this genre and trope also knows the royal aristrocratic ML/Alphahole.
So what makes him so different and more sympathetic than the other princes you know who has fun teasing/torturing the heroine/FL?
Well, the manga quite clearly states that Cecil isn't actually sadistic per se towards Tia, he is simply calculative and warms up to her with time.
I presume it's because he has some actual development in character thanks to FL
It's kinda what the recent chapter is all about tbh
Oh yeah, that's also a very good point.
Cause of the character development, and we see it from his POV which helps us understand him
This! We could say unlike most shoujo isekai of the same theme, where the FL has much of the perspective, this manga has Cecil as the main narrator. He's practically the main character, not Bertia
Now that you mention it, that's also seems to be the case
He enjoys her when she's troubled he ain't sadistic (or is he?)
He does listen to her even thou he doubted her story (and stopped the pandemic right?)
not like shitty ml where they dismiss fl worries (he consoled her when crying at the Academy and was patient with her [the baby thing])
Never made contact with heroine for bertia (unwillingly did tho)
Was kinda possessive but never restricted her (didn't like her calling his aide brother though he let them get along)
I like this story better than The Villainess Reverses the Hourglass.
Woah calm down we're only 2 chapters in, although I do sense potential
I also read the raws in newtoki.
Raws please???
Oh okay, my bad
The stupidities of these characters never ceased to amaze me.
What I find very frustrating about Sengoku Komachi Kurou Tan! is that the MC is constantly getting "whipped" by asshole Nobunaga. She has all the knowledge and power to change things but she is so powerless against him and so scared of him! Even though she has the equipments/invention to overpower him! Nobunaga himself admitted that she is valuable and dangerous. But she is so dense that she can't even stand up against him :(
She is practically his slave.
https://www.rejectedprincesses.com/
Cleopatra’s Little Sister vs. The World (feat. Aubrey Plaza and David Wain) - Drunk History
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ab4rYDR0yY
Please correct me if I'm wrong but isn't it stated that she respects him and wants to help me? It seems she doesn't wish to stand out necessarily but help the era progress as a whole and share her ideas and to do so that most efficient way is through him, though I could be wrong. There are definitely times wheres she's scared to death of him and thinks he will kill her, but i think she also respects him and his accomplishments
What would be the point of her overpowering him if it wpild possibly affect her future. At the current moment she isnt even being careful but overpowering him wpuld be stupid on her part.
But the future has already been affected with her presence and her invention to help Oda becoming more powerful . And her uncle and the other guy are already also in the Nobunaga era.
By the way, she could have use her knowledge and weapons as leverage to get better treatment or to be on a more equal footing.
Myne from Ascendance of a Bookworm despite her health issues/handicap is a much better determined negotiator than Ayanokouji Shizuko and she can be a badass against authoritarian assholes.
That would be stupid on her part. He's an historic figure. What benefit is it of her to over power him and take his place? And either way who is going to follow a woman in this time period.
I get that shes smart and knowledgeable but at the current moment she already isn't careful in altering the future. It would make literally no sense for her to take over especially if she decides to leave if she can find a way home. Who would be there for the people then? Ur not seeing the bigger picture except that shes the main character op smart queen and shes also technically a child still.
What business does she have taking over? Shes helping and doing it with what she knows just like the other person commented. He doesnt view her as a slave and he doesnt treat her like a smart woman of this era would be treated. He respects her as an asset to his success and treats her with the same respect as his generals. She isnt no slave fam.
You re right. She did have the thoughts or monologues but I personally can't comprehend the logic of helping a megalomaniacal tyrant who constantly threatens your life and then under his thumb you develops respect and sympathy for him. So you keep working your ass off to please O.N. just so he won't kill or torture you. That's not funny at all! And with time she forgets that mad monarch has almost executed her more than one time.
I believe it is called Stockholm Syndrome.
You know, I really this premise/idea of this story but does the MC has to be so subservient to Oda Nobunaga?
I think the reason why the author doesn't want to make the MC stand up to that guy is because in Japanese pop culture O.N. has been always portrayed has a dominant, glorified, feared, cool, very patriachal guy. It is very unthinkable for many to see that manchild being intimidated by other characters especially a girl/woman.
I never meant that she could replace him. What I have in mind was that she still could bring positive changes and advanced inventions to feudal Japan without being willingly forced, controlled or threatened by Nobunaga. She could influence him or force him in a way where he could become a better shogun. She is already doing that to Oda's son even though unintentionally.
Think about it, she has become a very valuable asset to him to the point his success as an allmighty ruler depends on her. He needs her more than she needs him.
I understand your points but I don't like the power dynamic between Ayanokouji Shizuko and Nobunaga. I ve seen other isekai characters who can commerce with bloody tyrants but without bowing in fear to them.
Felt like I had to say this, but Oda Nobunaga was a really prominent Japanese figure. He was the first of the three unifires that managed to actually unify Japan during it's war ridden state. It would be like going back in time to meet George Washington, he would probably ask you about democracy and whatnot. Or meeting Napoleon who unified Europe. These examples might help you understand MC's feelings towards Oda
this is exactly what I was thinking but then again, when she first came, he threatened her and if she ever betrays him, he could easily kill her plus she doesn't want to become an important figure in history
Good points but nowadays you have access to several historic facts, files or reports that proves/hints that these historical figures were quite jerks and that their legacy didn't really do the future generations good.
I understand that MC is awestuck due to famous Nobunaga but HE sucks as a decent human being. Yes, he allowed himself to be like that to due to his reputation and accomplishments but I expect that a modern enlightened/educated person would be able to fearlessly deconstruct and see through him.
I also read recently again the first chapter and it was so hard to see how she has to beg for her live and that Nobunaga ruthlessly exploits her.
But when she gained wolves companions and a manual to build advanced deadly weapons, she still didn't have the balls to use these her advantages to become more emancipated.
I get the impression that the author deliberately made her so dense that she can't object Oda, fiercly protect herself with her equipment or negogiate with him on a more equal footing.
I think patt of it is also thats shes a woman and in this era unless she had his help she wouldn't have had the opportunity to be the chief village leader and it showed how almost all the men outright ignored her, she had no family so establishing herself without looking like a spy by herself could have been difficult, she had to plead with him to spare her life and as we saw he excepted her when virtually no other leader would because of her gender, unfortunately that's how it was back then :( and unfortunately I don't know enough history on him to make much of a statement in regards to how he is portrayed through history, but i think if it were me I would be too scared to leave after he already knew my face, he said if she betrayed him he would cut her down, and weve seen him almost do it anyway so I would believe him. I think he should treat her better as a whole, and i think as a human being she has a right to leave if she wishes, but considering the circumstances I understand why she isn't
Except no, she is not so average. The author used heavy-handed methods to make her more special to Nobunaga. The author had her suddenly transported to the warring states while walking on the streets. However, she conveniently had her Chuunibyo notes and books of modern knowledge with her. She has agricultural knowledge[from her farm working, fine, I can expect that], and has military knowledge[from her sister{can expect} and books[ok, maybe somewhat can expect], and from her Chuunibyo syndrome, {not really expected}, and technology knowledge from the mechanical tech tree{not expected}].
I get your arguments but don't forget that author gave her abilities that surpasses Nobunaga and his own men.
We can argue what is or what isn't realistic to be a woman in old Japan but someone with extraordinary skill sets and a strong will with a very liberal view wouldn't put up with any asshole unless he has been defeated and owned. But that's just only my opinion.
My main complain is the fact that her cowardice and inferior behavior to Oda Nobunaga.
https://www.rejectedprincesses.com/
Cleopatra’s Little Sister vs. The World (feat. Aubrey Plaza and David Wain) - Drunk History
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ab4rYDR0yY
Maybe if you go watch these links, you can understand my frustration about the dynamic between MC and Oda N.
Potion-danomi de Ikinobimasu!
Saving 80,000 Gold Coins in the Different World for My Old Age.
Imagine if Kaoru Nagase or Yamano Mitsuwa were to meet Oda Nobunaga...
Do you think Nobunaga would be able easily power harass/threaten them to do his bidding?
I think it's funny people talking about liberal and modern knowlodge and whatever, but at the end of the day, she is a normal highschool girl while he is a warrior.
Is he feels like it, she would have been dead already, which should have happened if it was historically normal, no lord would allow a strange girl that came out of nowhere, alive, especially if he suspected them to be a spy, hence one of the brilliant points of Nobunaga, he was a man that understood the importance of information. That's why he kept her alive.
Plus, she IS inferior to Nobunaga. Just because she has access to modern knowlodge and technology, what can she do with it without Nobunaga? Especially as a woman?
She understand her position, plus historically Nobunaga is way worse, especially the way he treats woman was quite bad, yet he is one of the better lords (dubiously), and if she understand history as much as the other subjects, she knows she is on the luckier side.
Finally, I don't believe she is being a coward, after all she is trying her best to improve people lives while protecting herself, tho she can behave quite cowardly.
The idea about overcoming status and achieving equal footing is ridiculous, in modern times we didn't overcome racism and machism and you want to say that she can stand on equal foot with a man and a noble in a historical scene, that's pipe dream.
Nobunaga is no Saint, but he was a brilliant man. Just the fact that he can comprehend her while being an ancient man show how smart he was, unfortunately, historically he never expanded his interest to anything other than military and a slight bit of politics, even tho he did show some promising talents in other areas.
Agree to some of your points and to disagree to other arguments.
The whole plot itself is unrealistic and there are enough underrated girls in history that managed to be on equal footing with other male tyrants. Some of them died and some of them succeded.
We don't know how much they changed the world because their history keeps getting erased by men.
I already mentioned one of my info sources.
Arsinoe the little sister of Cleopatra almost killed Caesar, if he wasn't so dann lucky! We can also argue that Nobunaga's goal was also regarded as riduculous and he still made most of his dreams become real.
Let's not forget that a man like Nobunaga is not invinsible and he got killed by his subordinate Akechi Mitsuhide.
He was brilliant but also too cocky and careless.
And he didn't do most of his achiements alone. History always have the tendencies to glorify the myth of one genius man who came up with or did everthing alone!
Its very likely that there other people deliberately not mentioned who played a crucial role in Nobunaga's success!
I ve seen other mangas or webtoons with similar plots but with male MCs and they are portrayed with a more stronger diginified attitude to the point where the tyrant has to treat them with respect.
You may think she is inferior to Oda N but even he regards her as a dangerous being. In one the chapters he has an inner monologue where he worries if she ever goes to the enemy's side or starting to rebel against him! The reason why she didn't do it is because Nobunaga tries everything to keeps her mentally submissive loyal and the author made her so nice and meek enough that she won't retaliate with her weapons.
You know I did my research about various cultures/countries in the history of mankind where there was a period of prosperity and equality or at least some were going to the direction... What happened is that there were always manchildren assholes in power who destroyed and undone centuries of progress and social achievements. History shows that in the past there were nations that almost reached equality but due to wars, coup d'etat or forced regime changes it was forgotten.
White supremacy didn't always existed. It was invented by certain group of ultraconservative elite people to gain power, to divide people and to undermind the oppositions!
I kinda like the position that Shizuku is now, she could never overpower nobunaga, not only because of the historical and political context, but because her character isn’t like that, she is more of a peaceful leader and while she is smart, I don’t see her making war decisions that are inevitable in the era. (And what kind of modern and peaceful raised girl could?). I like that she is awkward and a bit of a coward because is different from all the others MC and I can relate a bit. And about the treatment... the concept of overworking didn’t exist!! And it was very common to threat and be rude with people of lower status.
Maybe as the manga and “time” progress she is going to gain a better position, if that happens it’s nice that things are taking their time to progress and she isn’t a “queen” form a day to other
She doesn't have to overthrown Nobunaga. She can influence or pressure him just like Odas son.
All I want is that she has more self awareness of her poer and a less subservient attitude.
It just bothers me that N doesn't suffer at all. He fears her abilities that is why he does everything to mentally own her.
Is it a common unspoken rule in Japan not to portray Nobunaga as a disgusting angry bad guy who loses??? Historically he was at the end defeated by someone who he mistreated too much.
I recommend you to read the "The Villainess Lives Twice!"
In other Asian novels the saint/heroine/false villainess would usually heal or make the typical cruel sadistic narcisstic immature goodlooking alphahole a better man through naive unconditional love no matter how bad he is... YIKES
But in this story the author is not sugarcoding or lenient towards a "prince" called Lawrence and this time the characters around him don't take his bullshits! It is made very clear that this shiny shithole only made it to the top because he had competent support!
If you ve read "The Abandoned Empress", "Daughter of the Emperor", "I Became a Maid in a TL Novel" or other stories that involves an abusive (op) bloody tyrant ML character that the suporting or side characters are so stupidly loyal to him that they have any excuse for his shitty behaviour like almost killing the MC in cold blood or the way he can easily harm and dispose anyone who annoys him.
Who is lawrence again? Wait are you against Izekiel? I'm sorry my text-comprehension is not good or your writing is too complicated
Lawrence is the antagonist, the evil brother of the unusual MC and he has typical behaviour and attribute of a ML in any Asian dramas or novels.
It is not that hard to read the summary and the chapters of "The Villainess Lives Twice!"
Izekiel is not exactly the tyrant king or the main ML. It's Claude!
You're right that Claude holds some typical tyrant characteristics. He's cold-hearted and only puts up with those he chooses to keep around. However, he's not exactly a tyrant. At least not to his people. He runs his country well, the people love him. He doesn't go around causing destruction just because he has the power to do so. In fact he mostly minds his business and is a workaholic.
Did he kill Athy in the past? Yes. But let's face it there was a lot of circumstances that suck that led up to it bc Claude is an idiot who was in pain from losing Diana. That's his fault entirely but we see that he becomes a doting father under completely different circumstances. Comparing him to Lawrence isn't correct bc Lawrence is abusive, uses ppl as you said and runs his country to ruin. Nobody likes the guy, except his mom.
It does not excuse his heinous behaviour towards his helpless poor biological daughter.
And I find very absurd and dumb that he is now currently suffering under amnesia which leads him forgetting his precious time with the MC and trying to kill her again without any hesitation!!! (What was the author thinking?)
What pisses me off is the very fact the his close allies don't do much to stop him or have the guts to protect Athy! Are they fucking dumbasses or foolish accomplices?!
Considering his fucked up mental state there is no way he would keep the country running on the long term, if it wasn't for the love he was given by the kind women in his life!
I prefer ML fathers from "I Was Born As The Demon Lord's Daughter" AND "The Archmage's Daughter". And the Monster Duchess :)
These parents didn't have to be wear down, sucked up or kissed by the female MC to love her. On the contrary they took the initiative to learn to take care of a child.
Unlike egomanic Claude they did not abuse their children!
Yes, the Demonlord blamed the MC as a newborn baby for the death of his beloved wife and had the urge to kill her but he stopped on time and realized his mistake! To redeem himself he decided become a caring competent father!
Did Claude ever apologize to Athy for almost drowning her????
And because he is such a desired heartthrob/fuckboy with a sad past he gets always a pass.
I hope you understand my disapproval of royal male characters in power like him.
He is under amnesia because he protected his daughter though?? He literally rushed in and gave up his own mana and didn't think twice about the consequences so he could save Athy. Also, people forget but Claude literally froze his heart and erased his memories after Diana's death causing him to initially be cold towards Athy but we see that clearly not last long. He neglected her, but that's rlly the only abuse he inflicted on her. After he loses his memories and has absolutely no idea who she is, sure, he tries to harm her, but again, to him she's a stranger and he blames her for his condition and the fact she has his mana. He doesn't understand the situation. He's confused. All he knows is a little girl has his mana and he's extremely unwell.
Other than that he's not a bad dad. The manhwa does a poor portrayal of how he really is with Athy. He's much more affectionate in the novel and truly cares for her. He's not a perfect character and he clumsily learned to be a dad after he went through lots in life, some might say that doesn't excuse it but this is a new reality where he's not the person he was before. Not everyone needs the same type of affection and show to tell someone loves them. I believe Athy and Claude have their own relationship understanding and they're happy that way.
Everyone has their preferences and it's totally okay if you don't like him, I'm not forcing you to nor do I plan to change your mind. But these are some facts and thoughts to keep in mind. I'm not fond of Royals in power who get passes either :/
I believe you that the novel version is much more detailed. There are adaptations that leaves out important informations, inner monologues and moments.
I respect your arguments. It is just soap opera logic that bothers me:
Amnesia, magical spells to freeze your heart/feelings away, everyone is connected through dramatic background, secret revealations, inhumane ML is untouchable and so on...
That reality where Claude becomes a better person only exits because MC Host is doing all the hard emotional labor and is too lenient towards that fuckboy.
Melissa from "Beware of the Villainess" or Su Lüxia from "Cheating Men Must Die" would have beat the shit out him. When you read these webtoons, you will see why these bitches won't fall or sympathize with Claude at all.
But as you said everyone has its preferences and that's ok.
One of the reason why I am not a fan of Claude and his people is because they remind a me of my messy family dynamic. In my younger years I came to the realization after suffering long enough in that enviroment:
"Wait a minute? Why the hell do I have to fight and suffer for family members approval who are miserable hypocritical assholes? Why is their toxic way of showing their love towards me so acceptable? Do I really need to like/love them just because they are popular and respected in some circles? Do I have to forgive every mistakes they did just because of circumstances? Is my only option to stay with a family that keeps making unhappy so I can survive? No way in Hell! Screw them!
And that is why I am more fond of stories where ML archetypes like Claude gets accountable and suffer real lasting consequences for their foolish actions!