Toma's Topics (225)

it’s on pocketcomics!

FINALLY!
THANK YOU!!!

I am bell rice cake

Number

I'm a hen's egg

I’m Iron Enemy

I'm raw house

Its different but the plot simply doesnt work because ultimately it romanticizes rape. As it's ultimately just used as a plot device to situate the main characters. It's honestly disturbing. But BL's love of rape has no bounds.

yeah you're right. it's so yucky that i don't even feel like keeping up with the updates. what a waste of good art

this is an illegal manga site too calm your ass down and just let people do what they want to do. no one is forcing you to read this !! :))

the hypocrisy in this comment. you’re literally reading on an illegal site yourself LOLOLOLOL. and according to your list most of those things are unofficial translations which also include “iLlEgAl ScReEnShOtS” and by feedback we meant on our cleaning and translations not anything related to the other stuff you mentioned.

and what you don't know is that i am on this site to get to know all these comics so i can go find them on the legal sites and support the authors as soon as they are licensed. i have 9 different websites and apps that i am subscribed to and where i pay for the official english translations. and where no official english translation is out, i buy the manga in physical form in japanese, and now i am studying korean just so i can go subscribe to these korean creators and support them, since not nearly enough comics get official translations on legal websites.

if you didn't want this kind of feedback, then what exactly did you want? and why did you ignore the points i bring up, as if they are not true? are you too stingy to buy your own raws? or too lazy to go find them? do you speak an ounce of korean or was i correct about the translation apps? are there not pages missing and not in order? you think you cleaned the pages? really? are you really convinced that you delivered a good product here with good means? you don't even provide links to the creator's official release site so that people whp stumble upon this shitty upload can go support the original work.

and i am not reading this anymore lmfao
they asked for feedback, i gave them mine. no one is fprcing you to read my comment either, so go along and ignore it if you don't like it

LMAOOO I LITERALLY OWN 12 OUT OF 24 OF THE CHAPTERS ON LEZHIN. I have been speaking korean for about 7 months of course I won’t be perfect and i’ll admit the translations and cleaning is iffy but I do not get these raws from illegal websites and ive been keeping up with the updates on lezhin since september LOLOLOL.

go say that to the other people who don’t upload the official link to the raws . seems like you don’t care if they have it if the translation and cleaning is to your liking.

sure jan

whats your discord ill show you proof bozo

you proved enough by using screenshots found on toonkor and newtoki instead of your own from lezhin that you claim to read it on, not being proficient enough in korean to do translating (don't get me wrong, i think what you are doing is good practice if you're really studying korean, but they don't need to be distributed when they are obviously stolen screenshots off an illegal site), not addressing my other points and trying to attack me about things you don't know anything about (like my consumption of the comics on this site and my telling or not telling other uploaders things i am telling you). not to mention that proving things to me only instead of all the readers of this comic by putting your proof in the uploads, is pointless in and of itself.

you honestly sound like a teenager by the way you are engaging here in this thread, and i am not interested in fighting with someone i don't even know or care about. just take the criticism or don't, and let's each be on our way.

for the last time. i. bought. the. chapters. from. lezhin. i offered proof on discord and now your dodging and continuing to say i stole them from tkor. what is your discord tag so I can show you PROOF that I have been purchasing the chapters since 3 days after the release date.

do you want me to show your proof that I saved them from lezhin? LOL

if you weren’t interested in fighting you would apologize for your mistake of you thinking I get and screenshot the raws from an illegal website. I already admitted to my translations and my cleaning to be iffy (like you asked before) now why don’t you just apologize for the assumption so we can be even?

To be honest you’re the one and only person that has assumed that I steal raws from an illegal website. I get a few comments saying that they are confused and the translation is weird but I have owned up to that (which i’ve said a million times now so don’t say I’m not listening to the points your making)

i will not apologize for being right and you obnoxiously trying to doge my criticism. lie to yourself and try to bend reality all you want, but i am no fool. you stole them, as proven by the watermarks and even yourself at one page, where the screenshot cuts of a speechbubble and you put an asterisk to explain that this part is missing from where you got it from. if they were your own screenshots you could easily replace them or just put the translation of what should be there in place of it. but the watermark is glaring evidence enough.
i even doubt your studying korean, since i have been studying it for not even a month and noticed obvious mistakes that change the entire meaning of everything written there. they are not even beginners mistake, they are obvious results off a translating machine. you did not translate anything here, not even a word.

as i said, try fooling yourself and maybe succeed in fooling other gullible or uninformed people on this site, but i won't be fooled by your clownery.

and i repeat, proving things to me, who isn't an inspector or holds any kind of authority in checking illegal distributions of copyrighted material, is useless. prove me i am wrong with the uploads, so everyone who sees the uploads can tell. i know you can't do that because you are a liar. a really bad and obvious one.

This is my THIRD time asking for you to give me your discord tag so I could provide proof that I saved them from the lezhin site.

a bad liar? yet you won’t let me provide proof? telling me to stop uploading because of how bad it is and then telling me to upload to give proof? make up your mind......

“trying to dodge my criticism” i’ve quoted myself THREE times agreeing to what you were saying with the points that were correct. Being INCORRECT is not critisicm so I will obviously inform you on the truth and back myself up.

did you even read our scanlations thing? I am not the only one translating, our translator hye is very fluent in korean and she helps me when I fail to understand thing. And even if that wasn’t the case I HAVE ALREADY admitted to the translations being iffy anyways for the FORTH time now.

this will be the last time i reply to your nonsense

1. i said proving anything to me in private does nothing, you should have been able to prove you are right with the uploads themselves. and since you seem to lack reading comprehension, let me tell you what i mean: the uploads you have provided so far should not have left any doubt that people like me could jump on in the comments in the first place. since you did a bad job and used bad means to do a bad job, i am saying to stop this nonsense. not that you should upload more of this nonsense. and if you were to upload more and suddenly use yoir own purchased screenshots grom lezhin, people would immediately know that you have been spewing nothing but lies so far.
2. you got the raws from here, not from lezhin: https://newtoki95.com/webtoon/8334715/%EC%B2%AD%EC%B6%98%EC%82%AC%EC%A0%95?page=2&toon=BL%2FGL
lezhin doesn't have watermarks, nor does it have cut off panels and speech bubbles. so stop trying to say otherwise, it's embarrassing.
3. you don't give the source link to support the author that you say in your credit card you want people to go support. since you yourself don't support the author, i expected nothing less :)
4. none of you is fluent in korean. you used a translation app or website, since none of the text makes sense. don't try lie about thay now, too. it's getting ridiculous.
5. you were pretending that your pride got hurt by my being the only one "accusing" you of using illegal scans from someone else off an illegal website. listen. it's not that i am the only one "making accusations", it's that i am the only one giving you feedback altogether. feedback that you yourself asked for but now feel exposed by.

i suggest you stop this circus show now, you are only making yourself look worse and worse with each comment.

The drama in this comment section is better than the manhwas at this point

whatever this uploader does now concerning future updates on this comic, they are gonna expose their lies and hypocricy, and prove me right on their own. whether they do it by stopping to upload or removing the uploads so far, or continuing to upload with lezhin scans or newtoki scans.

i am not here to preach morals to readers on an illegal comic reading site. i just want to call out the hypocricy and blatant lies of this particular uploader.

saying on the credit page to go support the author, when they themselves didn't do it and give no link or site name so those who would indeed be interested in going to support the author can't find the source by looking at that same credit page. and insisting on not having stolen the screenshots off newtoki (when the watermarks and cut off panels clearly prove that), having cleaned the pages (when the newtoki watermark is still there) and having translated the text parts themselves (when it is clear as day they use google translate or something)... it's just so pointless, unnecessary and stupid. and then demanding an apology from me for exposing them? absolutely hilarious.

Agree...*sipping tea*

Another day on mangago, another day of drama

Jfc whenever I press "+" I don't even wanna read it it's too long

then don't lmao no one is forcing you to and no one cares. go read manga perhaps

Do you have the capability of translating the manwha? please do
No sarcasm tho
Please provide the official link to the english translation and raws
After reading your rant, clearly you're better than them.

if that is what you come up with after reading my entire exchange with them, means you either lack reading comprehension or are an entitled little dumbass.

1) there are no official translations out there. yet.
2) you are allowed to criticize people without being a professional in the field of work they are doing. you don't need to have cancer in order to be able to diagnose it.
3) i do not have the capabilities of translating anything yet, which is why i won't pretend i do and put others through this mess. i wouldn't use google translate and say it was my own work.
4) even if i was ableto translate, i wouldn't do it. if i understood korean, i would go to the official source and read the work there.
5) no one owes you a translation. "if you have the capability of translating this manhwa then please do" how about no. who are you to ask that of some random person you are not even paying their services for?
6) how about YOU go on lezhin (the korean version), buy all the raws, find a good translator and cleaner out there, commission them to translate this work you so badly wanna read, and then out of altruism share it on this page so everyone else can read it for free? because that's how it usually goes. don't wanna pay? then just wait and hope someone else does it for you.
7) the point of this post was not "mimimi i am so much better than you poopy translators", it was "stop being hypocrites and liars, these uploads suck on every level"

Uh- can we like all stop "fighting" ? I mean even if it's done by google translation i appreciate it cuz i personally still can't pay for the manhwa yet. it's not from lezhin just ignore it. I'm glad someone even get to put it in translator cuz I'm a lazy piece of shit and i wouldn't even do that.. like just calm ur tits down and let them do what they want and lemme read something and doesn't even makes sense. I enjoy it , you don't have to read it.

Something that doesn't make sense* くコ:彡

bruh the point is that they didn't even pay for the raws to compensate the creator for spreading their work around illegally for free, yet tell the reader in the credit card to go support the author (without linking them or telling us where to find them). the lack of cleaning and lazy "translation" wouldn't even be a problem per se, but the uploader asked for feedback, i gave it, and they didn't like it and started spewing nonsense and straight up lying. so the issue is the lack of morals and hypocricy of the uploader, and yall decide to protect them. and from... what exactly? this would never have turned into a "fight" if these asshats hadn't asked for an apology from me and attacked me for shit they have no clue about while straight up lying about their own side. but keep on protecting these poor wittle babbies from an ungrateful meanie bully like me, i guess.

and saying "don't read it then" is the dumbest non-argument that doesn't contribute to anything ever. there is nothing to read anyore anyway, since they stopped their nonsense. and they even stopped replying to me, showing they have no way to back up their lies and stupidity anymore. yet you all somehow feel the need to continue, when i have proven i was right about all my claims a long time ago. and now yall are even trying to protect THOSE outsider idiots, who come up with even more nonsensical shit, like "you go translate and upload it here then because you think you're so much better than them". and then blaming ME for a fight? yall have lost your minds. but i guess as long as you can see pretty drawings of goodlooking men fuck each other, you'd let any brainclouds into your heads.

if you don't wanna see fights, just take your own advice and don't read this thread then, sweaty :)

i am now muting this thread, since nothing sensible is being said in response to what i say.

yall can have fun and go off, be as unhinged as you want.

Homie I agree with everything u say but let’s b honest u don’t buy them all, I believe u do buy some of them but def not all of them. U have like over 500 manga/webtoons saved in ur reading lists!! I can tell u don’t buy them by reading some of ur topics HAHA which damn u have some strong opinions, which I fw but just humble urself haha,

Bitch don't call me sweaty ik i don't have to read these shits but like seriously you're just fighting for nothing. I mean ye I'm here for the drama but this ain't it like just let them do what they want geez we still fucking appreciate bet you don't even buy all of them so shush

(≧∀≦) hahaha hahaha hahaha hahahaha lol lol lol yooooo this thread is so funny. Imma just be here sipping my sweet mint tea.

fOR REAL SAME ╮(￣▽￣)╭

The people replying in this thread must be very young, they seem to not value enough quality and the quality of a work.
It's not difficult to understand: If you can't provide quality to a job (any.kind.of.job), then it's better to do nothing because it'll only ruin the original work of an author and the understanding of those who read. We are on a illegal site but that doesn't mean we should eat and accept anything and everything just because we can eat and it's free. Btw there are enough yaoi and BL out there already to read, to substain your addiction of BL to wait for a good translation to finally be released. I don't even understand the length of replies this thread got.
If I had to compare, I'll compare a bad translation to bad redrawn dicks; it spoils everything and it kills the pleasure to read: instead of turning on the mood, it's a turn off. There's nothing worse than getting a work done by someone who's not competent.
After, it's understandable that some can't wait and want to read anyway, though these poeple should also understand the ones who can't satisfy themselves with a bad translation and are voicing their opinion.

Haven't read this manga but saw this comment and I just wanna say, well said.
I follow a lot of artists on instagram and lately the topic of like taboo subjects (like r*pe or age gaps/pedophilia) is coming up and the whole "fiction vs reality".

It's like because suddenly people like the way r*pe looks when its potrayed in these webtoons and mangas and it's a bunch of pretty drawings doing it, it's okay...? I'm 100% sure a lot of people of justifying r*pe in these mangas and whatnot is because they think the guy looks cool and maybe they'll be some "character development"!!!! Perfect example is seungho from potn, I see comments around being like omg character development he said he'll be nice now!! Or he's a r*pist but he's so hot!! Like I stopped reading very early on but im sure the plot has not changed from this man r*ping the other day in and day out and people act as if any sort of redemption arc will make it a-okay.

This isn't just appreciating a piece of work that happens to have these taboo subjects like r*pe, it really just is romanticizing it cause it "looks hot" and then acting as if they can completely separate fiction from reality...like that's not how it works?

Going back to artists on instagram, many have come out saying they support one artist who got called out for making r*pe/somnophilia art because it's just art...and some say it's a coping mechanism and yes you can't control your thoughts but it's on you that you decided to make this public and now you're simply dealing with the consequences. And then it turns into many people on twitter talking about how r*pe fantasies are normal and healthy and like...it's a shit show. I really do feel like many people pull these arguments out of their asses because of pretty art. It's sad.

Sorry I kind of diverged into another thing w artists and all but yea I was just happy to see this getting addressed more lately. Hope you have a great day!!!

please don't apologize, i love everything you said. the internet is a cesspool, tbh. go on any big soxial media platform or forums, and you're gonna encounter echo chambers full of olympic level mental gymnasticist. twitter and insta are notorious for shit takes like that.

while i do love painter of the night because it deals with serious topics in a serious manner (and the author herself says that seungho is a piece of shitthat belongs in jail), i cannot, for the life of me, understand what people find so cute or desirable on the content. especially all these psychopaths, of which the king of them all is seungho. the author makes it clear that if nakyum seems to show feelings for seungho, it is due to stockholm syndrome, and that if these two ever have a "happy ending", it wouldn't necessarily be a good ending. kinda like in "nii-chan" by harada.

fact of the matter is that there are really good BL out there who deal with heavy, life-touching topics in a self-aware manner, and then there are creators who shit on all of that and their works are popular because the art is nice, like you said. it's insane, but because the internet offers a pretty anonymous safe-space from people of all walks of life to instantly connect to like-minded people whose existence they will never experience irl, you have a separate, virtual world of people indulging in their escapist hobbies that cloud their common sense, making them lose touch with reality and diffuse socially acceptable and deplorable behavior.

that alone has consequences in reality, too. because they start acting out their online-acquired and/or cultivated beliefs in reality, often resulting in isolation and bullying of such people at best, and revenge-seeking or sexual-relief seeking that leads to heinous crimes at worst. there are countless studies that comfirm that. losing touch with reality is not fun. separatingfiction from reality is impossible.

I completely do understand that people will read these mangas or whatever media it is, that contain these heavy topics because yes everything in life isn't all fun and games and it is nice to see some people actually address it and not treat it as just porn. So I do see why you read potn,, I just really wish more people saw it that way.

And for sure, some BLs are amazing, like Dark Heaven which addresses homophobia and racism amongst other things but it's realistic and hard to sit through, but you can tell the time and effort that went into making it and the thought behind it,, muah. And it's just sad because in "yaoi" manga specifically things like r*pe in manga are VERY normalized as in it's just a mistake on one character's end, oh it was a heat of the moment thing. And then it's almost they never face the consequences/ r*pe is simply not treated like a big deal, it's just something that happens.

And for sure, the internet masks a lot for people,, and that's something that can't be controlled. I've seen comments on twitter on a page of someone that made art of a 19 yr old and a 45 year old in love (LOL), amongst the whole drama surrounding this other artist, and one said something along the lines of, "wow i thought i was the only one who fantasized about this, glad to know im not". Like...the internet is really letting people come out and act like saying this stuff is okay and making people think that these things are right...and for art, intention isn't always everything. You may not have intended to potray r*pe in a romanticized way or you may have not tried to downplay the severity of the whole situation but if people call you out on it, that's perfectly fine on their end and called for, even. It doesn't all have to be "if you don't like it just block and move on". People just have to accept these criticisms more cause it's being said for a reason. And if people actually cared about how their art, that they made public, affects others, then there should be the mindset of "how can i do better" and just really reflecting on stuff.

For your last point, that's something I find the hardest to I guess...to retort/ just finding the exact words is difficult,, the whole "well that's like saying violent video games influence people to kill people in real life". For now what I can come up with is kind of like, we ALL know, to put it very simply...killing is bad. Whether it's in war, murder, the death sentence, etc,, it's I think a very common idea we share that killing will have and should* have it's consequences. But, for things like r*pe, and pedophilia/very large age gaps (ig there's nuance in that too), it seems to be something that's very debated on. Whether this and this is r*pe, whether or not the victim should be blamed for something they did, whether or not it even matters that much, like this is VERY normalized and romanticized and there is such a big back and forth with these topics specifically which just isn't the same as comparing it to seeing people kill other people in media, a whole lot. I'll stop my point about that whole thing there just cause I need more time to I guess really find the words for it, but yea. (And if possible, I'd like to hear your thoughts on it;;;;)

agreed on everythig there.

as to the comparison of video games and violence, and people saying "just like video games don't cause violence, (rape/child/etc) porn doesn't cause rape", i could talk for hours about this. i will try to make it short and concise, with bullet points:

-video games have various goals and depending on the goals, you have to use different methods to achieve it. porn has just one goal, and it's the same throughout all its genres: instant sexual gratification. the method it works on: voyeurism. you fap to watching people engage in arousing acts. so video games in themselves cannot be compared to porn because they are inherently different.
-VIOLENT video games, or any media not just depicting but also condoning, praising, glorifying or not sanctioning violent characters do indeed cause children to become more prone to hsing violent methods to achieve their goals and desires in everyday life. psychological studies prove that.
-competitive games, whether they contain violence or not, cause children to be more aggressive. also proven by psychology.
-media that contain violence but end without a resolution or satisfactory conclusion (eg. the good guy loses, the main character's fate is deemed unfair, etc.) cause kids to be more aggressive than media that contain violence but end in a satisfactorly manner (eg the bad/violent guy loses, the good has a happy end, etc.). also proven by psychological studies.
-porn has proven to have negative effects on the human brain. neurological, psychological and media studies show that people become more impulsive, irrational and less able to perform sexually in a natural setting (eg. they have erectile dysfunction when being in bed with a woman but will get hard when watching porn). there is an escalation effect, meaning that they look for more graphic and real material or experiences. this is especially concerning for pedos who consume virtual or, god forbid, real child pornography (virtual cp includes loli and shota hentai). there is also a normalizing effect, meaning that you quickly get used to and become immune to what you consume now and seek out more extreme stuff. something that seems strange to you at first can easily become normal to you the more you see of it. that is also dangerous and can encourage the diffusion of fantasy/fiction and reality. individuals who consume porn regularly show addictive behavior just like substance abusers, and they are also more prone to sexism and sexual deviance, violence and crime.

in short: it isn't about the existence or non-existence of dark topics in media that is of concern, but the way these topics are treated by the creator. creating, distributing and consuming material that contain and trivialize physical or sexual violence can lead to that violence being fetishized, romanticized, popularized and normalized in an individual and in society. so fiction is not just an entirely different world separate from ours without affecting it at all. quite the opposite. fiction can mold reality, and depending on what is consumed, that can be positive or negative for the development of a person or culture. that is an undeniable scientific fact that no biased whining or mental acrobatics can erase.

also in case anyone is wondering: i am not pulling these things i say out of my ass. i have a degree in sociology and have read and written theses on these topics. everything i said can be verified if you google them. you might need a university email account to access the actual studies without having to pay for them, but if you do thorough research you can find out how to contact the scientists themselves and ask for their works. some should be accessible for the general public, too, but i tend to warn people of reading and referring to newspaper articles that "summarize" studies. more often than not they simplify, misintepret and leave out complex and/or essential information from the studies they quote.

Oh wow, this was really informative and made me reflect on some of the points I bring up in arguments like these, so thank you for taking your time to write all of this out.

I would always get defensive about the whole "well violent video games makes kid become violent" without really understanding why I would fight back against that. The point about media having violence but then also, a resolution of some sort really stuck out to me cause I never really thought about that part. And also about escalation and becoming immune and then in then seeking out more extreme content. I definitely am gonna look into these more because it's not points I really heard being brought up in these discussions with people just on the internet.

A lot of my worry/struggle about how to word the point about dark/taboo content in media was definitely relieved by this, because I think your summary at the end says it all. Reality is most definitely affected by fiction (ofc vice versa) and reality is the foundation, so it's as you've said, just impossible to act like there is this very clean line of separation. It's about how you treat these topics and also how people respond to criticism, without constantly bringing up worthless analogies (lately that's been a pet peeve of mine) and fixating on a very small thing vs the actual problem (like how a minor called out the artist's nsfw account for having r*pe art and everybody mostly focusing on how it's an adult matter, minors should stay in their place which is true to some extent but just completely ignoring the fact that the discussion is about r*pe art). I really wish your last paragraph can be put on a plaque and just posted everywhere on the internet cause it's something a lot of people need to hear but also if they want to, argue against and open discussions.

Also I hope people realize that calling romanticization and fetishization in fiction is not taking away attention from things like r*pe and pedophilia in real life...that's also brought up a lot, like oh just focus on real life problems when these ideas online will most definitely bleed into real life. Many people can focus on more than one issue at a time and call it out as they see it, it's not difficult to understand and it's one of those last resort comebacks.

!!!! Sociology and psychology has always been the *other* thing besides art I potentially wanted to get a degree in (even though my situation w college in general as of now is weird lol). Definitely makes sense as to how you were very eloquent with your words and just how much information you had. I hope more people would read these informative articles and talks and what not and just do more research on these sensitive topics, and I hope to do so as well.

Again, thanks so much for all the information, it really did help. It was refreshing to have this conversation with you and I hope we can maybe even talk more about other things or similar things! All the best to you!!!

thank you for the kind words ahahaha

i love your last paragraph. i see this so often, like "instead of being angry at dots and lines that don't harm anybody, go help real children out there" (in the case of arguments about loli/shota hentai)... as if they are the ones actively crusading out there playing chris hansen and putting pedos in jail sure, punishing offending criminals is something we need to do, and attending to victims of those crimes, too. but when we talk about the issue of consuming dubious media, we are focussing on what is going on with the consumer and his brain. and how it can lead to potential harm down the line. it's a preventative approach that puts the mental condition of the one doing the harm into the foreground. this discussion is not about victims of crime, it's about condemning media that can produce criminals. two separate discussions, two separate issues, both having their place and addressing specific points of concern. and yes, we can indeed focus on both. it's not like one is swept under the rug or trivialized just because you bring up the other.

i wish more people came across this information and engaged in such discussions logically, too, but the fact of the matter is that every normal person knows, whether intuitively through socialization or due to their education, that rape, child pornography, violence, etc. are bad. so none of them will even pay attention to articles or videos or posts titled "why rape in media is bad". it's those that feel addressed or attacked because they enjoy such contents that flock to these discussions and then outnumber the sane person bringing the matter up. and when these discussions gain lots of traction due to that, those that were unsure about it because they consumed such entertainment but also felt guilty about it will see all these insane people outnumber the sane ones and think "if the majority says there is nothimg wrong with it, then i am not wrong for doing that". most of these mental gymnastics arise from this guilt i mentioned. in psychology it's called cognitive dissonance: two conflicting mental states cause the individual stress or an identity crisis, so they will try to convice themselves that they aren't wrong (eg. you pay 50€ for a theater ticket and the play ends up being utter shit, so rather than admitting you wasted time and money, you will say the play was good and refreshing). to me, it says a lot about someone if they choose to diminish their guilt over something instead of stopping to do that something that causes them guilt. it means personal pleasure > respecting victims. and i don't want to be near such a person.

consuming fiction that deals with issues in an improper manner for the pleasure of the consumer is still gonna make me question the morals of the person consuming such fiction. like, i am not gonna believe for a second that someone who gets off drawn or animated babies holds any respect for children and should be near or around children. they are not harming real babies with such consumption, sure, and there weren't any victims in the creating process of that material, perhaps, but the mere idea of children being sullied like that in someone's mind is what is the issue. just because someone hasn't committed a crime YET doesn't mean we can't judge, distrust and worry about them.

thanks again for the nice words and the productive discussion, and all the best to you, too!

This entire conversation is the most coherent and reasonable thing I have read on this site

Preach

I really do agree with the fact that people really should have more discussions with actual arguments that aren't "if you don't like it, move on and ignore", because why do you say that? Why not try to make other people understand somehow if you believe in what you say so strongly and get super defensive if somebody calls it out? Yes, people aren't obligated to argue back but especially if you have a big platform, you should have these discussions or else there's just no progress whatsoever. Why not see what the other side has to say instead of completely dismissing it?

And the point about "just because someone hasn't committed a crime yet doesn't mean we can't judge, distrust and worry about them" is something I 100% agree with cause in some situations with people making these problematic content like art/writing/ whatever it may be, they'll say "we don't support it just because we create content on it", and it's like, well yea you won't say you support it outright, but your actions are very telling. You have to just try to understand why you're getting the backlash you're getting. And when I see people arguing against these problematic things being romanticized in media, I'll hear a lot of "wow you guys must think you're very progressive or morally superior" or "you're 15 and found out what SJWs are" (LOL I literally got that reply once...) like? What is this adding to the conversation...how are these like arguments or just like what's the point of saying these? Also is it bad to...be progressive?

Sorry, wasn't sure if I should reply back cause it did sound like I was ending my part of the discussion but also I felt weird about not replying back. this is for u

i agree with everything you said. absolutely. and you're a sweetheart for that last paragraph ahaha

If it's that important to you, pass it on to the author. Speaking as a reader, I don't care a flying f***.

i’m a little late to this but i just wanted to say thank you for posting this because i’ve felt this way for awhile now and haven’t been able to voice my opinions due to the number of people brushing this topic off by saying it’s not real or it’s no that serious and a bunch of bs. but as you’ve said fictional pieces of work have a lot of influence on people especially if they’re underage and get influenced by anything and everything and it’s truly upsetting and sad to see so many people justifying this just because the art is good or that the characters are good looking. this will set a mentality in their head that rape or sexual assault or harassment can be excused in certain context which is so unhealthy and unsafe of people to think

I wish I could like this comment!!! If this were Reddit I would give you some gold <3

I wish I could like this comment!!! If this were Reddit I would give you some gold (⌒▽⌒)

agreeing a bit, disagreeing some too. just a few thoughts to consider though, there are people who have rape kinks but it's a type of play that can be completely consensual. it's kind of dehumanizing to assume someone who has a kink for rape-play or jacks off to rape-fiction as abnormal. we don't kink-shame guys if it's a completely safe and consensual thing.

also i kind of disagree on the reality to fiction thing. yes this does present itself in a setting based on the human "realism" but the real reason why a series would be problematic isn't because of that. it's when it discusses a taboo topic or a criminal act (like rape or pedophilia) and attempts to convince you that it's a perfectly normal thing despite any art form it decides to express itself in.

the reason why rape in pornography is "allowed" is because the form of expression it places itself in isn't to convince a group of people with a political viewpoint. the entire purpose of pornography is simply to jack off. and with it being directed towards an adult audience, it's assumed that the audience will be able to understand that this is only meant for "entertainment" and not to be applied to reality.

i definitely agree that your criticisms are necessary and valid though. it's good that people are calling out toxic and unhealthy romanticization of certain medias (especially with a bunch of kids and whatnot discovering porn). but i'd also be mindful of the fact that most of the adults here understand the difference and don't support rape in reality whatsoever. we're kinky people but consent is king.

This^^^

thank u!!!!

i guess it's time i respond to this, seeing as people still comment on this thread.

1. i do kinkshame, because to me it doesn't only matter if members participating in it are consenting adults, but alsp what the basis of the kink is. replace "rape" with any other type of deplorable human acts and you must also come to the realization that the type of kink you are into has to have some kind of connection to what type of person you are. for example, would you not judge me if i had a kink where my partner and i pretend one of us is a dachau jew, soon to be sent into a gas chamber but given the chance to polish one of the nazi guard's (the other participant in this kink play) shoes before that and that nazi guard promising them to escape the holocaust if they let the guard fuck them? like, why do these types of kinks rely on adults consenting to roleplay actual human suffering, and why do they get turned on by that?

2. with any type of media, especially porn, you never know who is going to see it and consume it. you cannot produce a pedophilia piece and say "ah it's cool, i only intended for my work to be seen by people who would never harm children". likewise, you can't produce any type of media with questionable handlings of violence or sexual violence and say "ah it's cool, we are all moral adults who had the same kind of upbringing in the same kind of culture that produced the same kind of world view, in which we all agree this piece of work exists in a totally different realm where the upbringing, culture and world view are completely untouched by and inconsistent with our own, and we purely immerse ourselves for only a brief moment of time in it until we climax to it, and then we pull out of it and return to our own, moral world without being affected by it, as if we have total amnesia of all the content of and experiences with the work".

3. what i said in 2 applies to all media, but with porn there is another layer to it. porn sites and porn distributor sites or even normal ass manga distributing sites like this one do not require age verification. the mean age of first encounter with porn is 11 years. anyone can stumble upon or look up problematic works. you cannot say "i merely make porn for adults with specific brain wiring and cognitive capacities" and expect it to not be seen by 8-17 year olds who grow up with easy access to the internet. add to that that ~90% of internet user use portable devices such as smart phones, and you have an even bigger recipe for disaster (in upbringing and education), because now they have easy acces from anywhere at all times. media form ideologies and values in people, so if kids can have access to these "amoral worlds unrelated to ours" that also very much look like ours, they can and do grow up (as studies show) without being able to "pull out" from these entertainment media completely unscathed and without it affecting their world view. studies show that regular porn consumers are more prone to sexist and sexually violent views, and that is an undeniable fact that needs to be considered before saying "oh porn is obviously not a moral guide, just jerk off material haha"

not saying that porn should change and become moral guides for kids or something absurd as that. but the fact of the matter is that porn makes up most of the internet content, and access to it is super easy, almost entirely barrier-free.and that regardless of what lroducers intend their audience to be or understand their work by, they have absolutely no control over it.

i am very much against all types of porn*), simply because the production of, participation in and consumption have severely unhealthy effects on humans, and because stricter laws to access of it have persistently failed. you have actual human trafficking, rape, abuse, child sexual exploitation and revenge porn being uploaded on "safe" and free sites such as pornhub and co. not all porn is prpduced by licensed studios, and in fact most such videos are made by provate people or underground organizations. add to that that some see these types of acts shown in such material as kinks, and you have an even harder time distinguishing between real victim and fetish play. to the consumer it doesn't matter, because they get to orgasm, but to actual victims it's a nightmare they can't escape because what is released on the internet stays there forever. and if the material is produced without harming any real, specific persons (meaning virtual porn), it still feeds off depravity and serves as a constant reminder for real victims and can even produce real victims down the line.

at some point we have to ask ourselves "what is more important, allowing people unlimited access to free jerk off material for their own enjoyment, or risking that this enjoyment does more harm than any good, physical, mental and social, in the long run?" the human race has had to find sexual partners as their outlet for horniness for hundreds of thousands of years, and now in the past 25 years we have access to unlimited depictions of people and instead participate in voyeurism instead of building human connections. thanks to the internet, even just one tinder profile activated for only 10mins gives you a choice of more potential partners than a human would have seen in their entire lifetime 100 years ago. the human race hasn't psychologically evolved enough in this short amount of time to deal with the sheer abundance of sexual content and new forms of sexual rituals that lead to a)relief of urges or b)potential sexual partners.


*with porn i merely mean jerk-off material that works on the basis of voyeurism. erotica are stories that contain sexual elements but rely on artistic depictions of human relationships or emphasize a plot or message. erotica are works of art and literature that want to communicate ideas and emotions. erotica =/= porn. BL (shounen ai, yaoi containing plot) = erotica. gay hentai = porn.
so i condemn it when erotica such as yaoi read more like porn because of the immoral way of handling sexua violence.

1. you do understand that what you described isn't consent right? lmao it's coerced consent where you're pressured or threatened. if giving freedom is an aspect of it, it's automatically not real consent. freedom is not given or taken, it is a right (or should be) of every human being.

2. that's true with every media. by your logic we should then eliminate all "morally wrong" substances in entertainment such as violence, murder, and sexual violence in pornography. thus eliminating genres of shooting games, horror movies and such. your logic doesn't stand. of course media can influence a person, i'll never deny that. but for a person to defy and commit heinous acts is not completely on the media source's fault. that person may have definitely already been insane in the first place and held these ideas to reality before witnessing a media that encouraged it. but by that stance, it does not mean the media source is to blame. it only becomes at fault when it attempts to paint itself as "morally okay" to do. i'm sure many certain pornography videos have warnings even ones that the U.S fbi leaves to warn you to differentiate the two.

3. that's the websites fault then, not the media source itself. most of this media derives from companies that have firm locks on this. all of this porn is outsourced by other people. you know that pornography is supposed to cost a shit ton of money.

i'm not saying you're "wrong". it's just that your points aren't targetting the media source itself. make an argument that can completely justify your point and limit itself to only this specific topic. "media affects reality" attains to an entire genre of fiction. what makes sexual media different from things like violent video games or horror films? when is a person able to understand the difference between entertainment and reality?

i'm sure you'd be able to further support your point with statistics to solidify your statements. i'd love to see what your studies were. all i know is the affects on pornography on adolescent mental health and sexuality. not sure about adults who consume it though since my argument is that this media is catered towards those with "more mature" minds to be able to grasp the media as merely fiction and entertainment.

but it causes one to wonder what would encourage a person to commit heinous crimes itself. witnessing a crime? seeing the romanticization and "benefits" of a crime? or were they simply twisted in the first place.

yeah censorship is hard. it's good that you're making your points though. there's good in dividing the mindsets for them especially with fucktards wanting a relationship like sangwoo and yoonbum lmao

i'm okay with certified entertainment pornography. because it's legal lmao but that shits expensive to buy. shit on 3rd hand websites is so creepy, yeah you really don't know who's a victim or not. that's why i personally stick to animated stuff or manga like this. i don't like the thought of a poor victim being exploited. though your argument is kind of stiff. sex trafficking has been happening for decades before media even formed. this kind of media isn't a cycle catering towards the sex trafficking ring. "producing real victims" is an assumption. most of the victims of sex trafficking are actually a certain ethnicity and gender (mainly women and indigenous or asian [in the U.S]).

again not the producer's fault. blame the media and people uploading second hand videos tbh. also not true, pornography has existed for centuries as long as paper did. you'd just be staring at one still image the entire time though or if you're in the edo period they have small caricatures that fuck lmao but that was media mainly consumed by the upper-classes who could afford it.

i agree though eroticas that encourage sexual violence as "okay" is quite awful and shitty in writing. but then that would mean that pure pornography doesn't attempt to display its kinks and such as morally okay in reality and outside of the media. it admits the differences between fiction and reality.

i see your point and understand your realities, but most of your worries of victims has been happening for centuries and though sexual media may be a factor in it, it's not completely one in every situation. don't get me wrong, i'd love to help and protect all victims of sexual violence, but eliminating a form a media that may or may not cause crimes is just gambling. i think it'd be better for us to donate to organizations to help victims of rape and sexual assault. or spread awareness about missing peoples in our communities. educating ourselves on these topics also helps. i personally never allow erotica or pornography to affect my moral standards, but i understand that some people (especially younger minds) are incapable of that. though i disagree with your point, keep building up your ideas and solidifying them a bit more because they are in a right mindset.

Y’all are grown, mature and making a whole lotta sense. People need to also keep in mind that even though it’s fiction and we should be able to separate it from reality, not everyone is capable of doing such. A lot of young people have access to this site and these stories and if they’re seeing rape being constantly normalized and romanticized, they’ll form the opinion that doing shit like that or having shit like that done to them is okay.

It’s also a lazy, cliche ass trope that’s over done and unnecessary in manga.

Rape isn’t cool or sexy or fun and just because the rapist is good looking does not justify it either. I really hate stories and comments such as those.

Love your discussion about this trope. Really well laid out