youraedthiswrogn's Topics (712)

Deadass, they get mad at the tamest shit lmao

That IS rape (there was no consent, it doesn't matter if it felt good or not for the victim), but like the commenter above me said this is pretty softcore for most yaoi readers, so I don't really get why get pissed at it ┗( T﹏T )┛

Rape? Or mild shock? To be raped you have to not want what's happening.

You know, I always wonder if people understand what yaoi means. (I mean, leaving aside the ignorant kind that goes "I love this yaoi ლ(´ڡ`ლ)" when they see two guys hugging) Do they not know that non-consent, attacking seme and super reluctant uke is actually one of the main things in yaoi? I'm getting tired of all the rape thing, and I'm super against that IRL.

I know! It's like people don't realize that sex is spontaneous! There is a difference between wanted, spontaneous sex and rape.

The meaning of consent is spelling it out, saying 'yes, I do want to have sex' to a certain person (that happens to want to have sex with you). I understand that yaoi is based on it, and I happen to like it, but still do not look away from what it really is.

Okay, and i'm sure if the seme had asked the uke would've said he wanted it, since he was saying he liked it in his head, but LITERALLY NO ONE asks "hey, do you consent to the sex we're about to have"? Also, consent doesn't have to be spoken out loud, consent is an emotion, not a sentence. It doesn't even say that you have to say it out loud in the definition of consent.

You're thinking of the verb consent, to GIVE permission, consent doesn't HAVE to be spoken out loud though.

He put up no fight to stop it. xD And if you think saying "no" is the reason it's so bad, you haven't seen porn, especially not stuff out of Japan. They don't moan, all they say is "no".

He said 'no' countless times. I know it's Japan, and that's their fetishes, but a 'no' is still a 'no'. Please refer to what I've said before (aka 'it doesn't matter if he's enjoying it, it's still rape if there's no consent'). Depends on the situation. If someone came onto you, and you said no, would you expect them to stop or to continue? I know this is one of Japans' fetishes but it doesn't mean it isn't rape.
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/consent
If 'agree, approve and permit' aren't 'say it out loud', I don't know what is.
Consent is NOT an emotion. It's the simple statement of 'yes, I agree'.

I'll state it once again, but I like this type of yaoi. Just please, don't look away from the fact that it is rape (and yaois like this one are rape fetish).

Yes, it is rape. I'm pretty sure people
understand what rape is and how wrong it is.
Please understand that what people are probably
trying to say is that, this is a fictional manga.
It is not real. There is no need for comments to flood with
constant rape is wrong comments. It's redundant.
Rape is a fetish whether we like it or not.

Reread the replies that answered to me. They think it is not rape, an opinion I disagree on. They didn't say that, at all. The only replies are got were 'it's not rape because he enjoyed it' and other variations of that. Please read the comments once again. I've been saying over and over again 'I like it, but please understand that it is rape'. Please read the comments again. I know that, and I've pointed it out. Please, please, please I'm begging of you to properly read comments.

Look, there's no point in trying to convince people this isn't rape. It is based on the interpretation of the reader. Like I said, it is fictional and they probably don't mean harm when saying it isn't rape. I'm dissapointed you assumed I didn't read the comments properly based on my reply, which is just an opinion.

Actually verbally and what is written in a dictionary or what we apply in a real life yes it is rape amd people above know that very well.so technically they know it is rape .but when you have seen enough yaoi manga amd know the rape trope too well where uke itself does not make it sound like it is rape,people dont conisder this as rape but only in yaoiii .
NOW to those who are gonna say rape is still rape no matter what .yaoi love rape trope os so difrrent people who read it knew .uke itself doesnt made it seem like rape is rape no rape victim tell the abuser ah it feels so good ,and i told you no but huh you did it anyway you cute rascal huh huh .that does not happen .
My whole point is people above know it is rape technically but the way it is potrayed it just a fetish or we can say uke is heart and mouth are saying diffrent thing .after all the years i have been reading yaoi i have learned as NEVER APPLY REALITIC THINGS IN THE WORLD OF YAOI UNLESS IT IS POTRAYED IN A REALISTIC WAY .

Rape has a meaning, and it's sad people don't know the meaning properly. So, I feel like some people just need to relearn it. In the end it's for me to decide if I want to persuade them or not. Everything you said in your comment, every point you made in your comment, I've talked about everyone of them. Pointing them out again after the countless times I have seems unnecessary, and probably wouldn't have happened if you would've read the comments properly. That's why I assumed you didn't read them, but I'm sorry if I was wrong.

Once again, you're looking at the verb, the ACTION of consent. Look at your own link. Consent is an emotion and nowhere does it say it has to be spoken aloud.

Funny how the one reply that was (in terms of grammar) written the worst, makes the most sense. The last sentence is something I agree with, but I still don't think people should just deny the occurrence of rape, even if it's for the sake of fetishes, and isn't realistic.

But, thank you for your insight on this matter~ Your comment was much more helpful than any other <3

It also doesn't say it shouldn't be spoken out loud. Do you see how flawed that logic is? Anyway, I'm kinda tired of this thread, so if you really want to read anymore of my opinions on the matter continue reading~ If not continue with your life~ ?

Btw, consent is not an emotion.

You say that i'm saying "it's not rape because he enjoyed it", but what i said wasn't that simple and detracts from what i intended to get across. I realize that just physically enjoying the touches doesn't count as consent, that is just a biological reaction, what i was saying is that he was emotionally accepting of the sex as well as physically accepting. You replied with "there was no consent, it's rape" to which i replied by saying "how was there no consent? He had no issues with the sex during or after the act as evidenced by the uke's thoughts during the sex being "it's so good" and "how DO i feel about him?" and the fact that the two of them were talking comfortably like nothing happened literally SECONDS after the sex while not showing ANY trauma or fear." and then i decided to show you that even in the dictionary definition there is nothing saying you have to speak consent aloud. You keep quoting the verb, which is the ACTION "consent" not the noun. Hell, even in the verb it doesn't say "spoken" just "to give", which can be done silently. Sorry, but you're wrong on the consent issue.

If we're quoting the verb, "to give", i can give you an apple without talking to you.

I have 2 things to say about this response: 1. The logic isn't flawed... The intent behind any definition is to give a solid, straight forward explanation of the subject, so it is meant to be taken as written, not for what's NOT written... If anything, you inserting "spoken" is the flawed logic as the definition is the way it is for clarity and you're just adding things as you see fit. 2. "Read your opinion or continue with my life"? You're under MY topic, YOU left your opinion under my topic and when you got upset because you Couldn't argue my purely logical argument you told me to stop responding to your responses to my topic... What?

I was talking generally, and I may have generalised the replies a bit too much, sorry.
'Permission, approval, or agreement' the definition of the noun. Idk where you brought 'to give' from. To give doesn't have much to do with consent. Someone made here a full reply about how it isn't reality, and it isn't realistic. Some would even argue that this manga portrays rape in a comedic light (I would kinda disagree on that though, just a random thought). In other words, imo it's rape, pretty tired of this thread, you're the one who's wrong about the definition of consent, thank you and bye~

I didn't quote the verb 'to give'. Wtf does 'to give' even have to do with consent? Please, most of you need to properly read comments or give proper arguments.

Wait wtf it's only one person nvm

This is probably one of the best threads I've come across on Mangago.

I said "to give" because it is the distinction between the verb "consent" and the noun... It's hard to argue with you when you aren't keeping up...

I brought "to give" up because it is the only text under the definition of consent where speaking aloud MIGHT be implied, i was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, but not even that acts as any sort of backing for what you're saying... "permission, approval, or aggreement" don't imply speaking aloud in literally any way. 1. I can permit you to do whatever without speaking to you by not stopping you. Example: i could stop someone from entering my house by closing the door, but if i open the door for you you are permitted to enter. 2. I can approve of your actions without saying anything to you. Example: You see satisfying stories on the news all the time like children being saved or rapists being stopped. You approve of the hero's actions, but you don't speak so to them because they aren't near you. I can agree with you without ever having met you. Example: We all agree physics work the way they do, right? I do at least and I'VE never met any of the founders of these scientific facts.
Argue any of these points you'd like, but all you've done so far is tell me how you FEEL so far without any reasons why or any backing.

I love wrecking narrow minded people with logic and facts, it's funny seeing how they try to back out and jab at the same time. (≧∀≦)

Narrow minded? You mean yourself? You're comparing giving an apple to giving consent for a sexual act. That's not exactly the best comparison :/

Lmao enjoy it I guess?

You're comparing giving apples and sexual consent? It's hard to keep up when you're not exactly logical...

That could go both ways. In the end it's just what each of us sees. I disagree with most of your examples, actually.
1. If you just open the door and stare at the person, will he think he's permitted to go in? No, obviously. If it's a person you know (friend/family) you'll probably say something like 'welcome', which can be translated to 'I permit you to enter my house', or at least it says he/she's welcome to enter. Idk what about you but I don't know a person that just opens the door for someone and then walks away. You can't understand from that nothing. You didn't get any permission.

2. You didn't really connect the example and statement well. When I read 'approve of your actions without saying anything to you', I'd think you'd give an example between two people that maybe know each other, to relate to this specific case. But instead, talking about two people that don't know each other seems kinda weird, no?

3. This is once again unrelated, and not true. Nope, some people still question physics. Generalisation is not a great tool (same for the statement before). And, these last two examples are situational. This specific case has nothing to do with those examples.

This whole argument is basically what we feel about rape in yaoi, so idk what you want from me. I need to back up my feelings? Does that sound logical to you?

Read the entire conversation and comment on that rather than cherry picking. I was making the point that you can "give" something wordlessly, obviously the two aren't on par...

1. No, you don't have to speak to permit someone through your door. Whether they choose to take you up on the offer due to confusion on their part (what's confusing about you holding a door open for someone anyways? You're clearly reaching) has no standing on the fact that i just gave them permission to enter. I looked at them and decided they can enter so held open the door for them... If they don't understand it doesn't change the fact that they have my permission to enter. That's why you can't claim breaking and entering if you let someone in... As i said, you're reaching.

2. The whole POINT in this example was to have the people not connected in any way. Keep up... I was making the point that not only do you not have to speak to someone to approve of their actions, you don't have to know them. You aren't even trying to understand what i'm saying, you just want to argue.

3. Lol, what?! You CANT QUESTION PHYSICS, THEY'RE BACKED BY FACTS AND MATH. Facts dont care about your feelings. Pay REALLY CLOSE attention to what i'm about to say, because i don't want you cherry picking again: You CAN re-interpret physics if you have actual data and evidence, but you cannot argue physics just because you feel like it.

"this argument is basically what we feel about rape in yaoi... I need to back up my feelings? Does that sound logical to you?"--- You've been maintaining your end of the argument as an argument through feelings, but it's just you, i've backed literally everything i've said and you've just responded with "no, thats not true" each and every time. This topic wasn't an argument about how you FEEL on the matter, I posted the topic because i saw quite a few people like you misinterpreting the scene and i decided to correct that with actual in-manga evidence and facts. The only one whos been saying how they FEEL is you. And yes, backing up your opinion on something is logical and just reality... How do you think all these facts were created? People formed opinions and found evidence to back then... Welcome to earth, now you can ascend back to the mothership with the data you gathered on how things work here on our planet.

K.O. (⌒▽⌒)

1. In the end the first point is 100% opinion so idk what else to tell you. I think it's not logical to even do that, you think it is. If you really call you representing your opinion as 'backing up what you say', I call bs.

2. But what does that have to do with consent in sex?? That's what we started off with and you're taking this to totally different places and claiming 'K.O' when I'm asleep.

3. Here's a small fact to you : humanity is developing. Recently scientists have learned some new 'rules' about the universe, and it does have a bit to do with physics (I can link it if you want, but it's in Hebrew). You misunderstood my whole point. What I was trying to say is that THERE'S NOTHING EVERY SINGLE PERSON ON THIS PLANET CAN AGREE ON. It doesn't matter how backed up you are with scientific evidence, there'll always be people that will disagree with you.

Here's a fact for you : all of your statements that 'backed up' your stance are opinions. In other words, your feelings. 'In manga evidence'? You haven't mentioned the actual manga at all. All of your 'facts' are your own personal opinions. Please get your 'facts' straight because it's starting to get annoying. Don't claim your opinion as 'fact'.
Welcome to fucking earth, where opinions aren't facts.

The facts i were refering to were: 1. The uke physically AND emotionally enjoyed the sex. This is evidenced in manga. I've went over the evidence with you multiple times, but i guess you're just thick? And 2. The definition of consent doesn't imply speaking aloud in any way.

The examples i gave were to back the 2nd fact, they weren't opinions, they were everyday things we all put into practice that you seem to like acting that you're unaware of (example 1 isn't an opinion, it's fact. If i opened the door for you you are, in fact, permitted to enter. Once again, this is why you can't claim breaking and entering if you let someone in... The same way you can't take back consent after sex and claim rape. If i open the door for you you are, factually, permitted to enter.) I literally gave you an example of how you can give "permission, approval or agreement" without speaking, i gave an example for each. The point of the examples was to prove that you can give consent without speaking. There is evidence within the manga that the uke consented to the sex, you said "he didn't speak consent so it's rape" so i decided to debunk you by bringing up the definition of consent. You gave a link to the definition of consent in an attempt to prove there was no consent, you misinterpreted the definition because it said "to give permission, approval or agreement" and you assumed that meant it had to be spoken and tried to use "to give permission approval or agreement" as a means of proving that you have to speak to consent, so i gave examples of how you can permit, approve and agree wordlessly.

Sorry for the recap, it's just that you don't seem to be keeping up with what i'm saying, you even just said i was stating my opinions...

Also, about the new discoveries in the laws of nature you were referencing, i believe i already said that physics can be re-interpreted with data and evidence. What i said was that you can't just doubt science just because with no backing as science has math and repeated results backing it.

T.K.O. (￣∇￣")

To point 1 : ENJOYING SEX =/ CONSENT. I'VE SAID THIS OVER AND OVER AGAIN, ARE YOU SURE IM THE ONE WHO'S THICK? Also, if him saying 'no' over and over again is in your opinion cconsntual sex, then idk what to tell you (I know it's Japan and all that bs, but in the end this is rape fetish).
To point 2 : During sex it NORMALLY does. Idk what kind of sex ed you got if you think someone telling you 'no' over and over during sex is consentual sex.

They weren't..... (example one IS opinion. You think people should get they're permitted to enter if someone opens the door to them, I don't. You sure do need to realize the difference between fact and opinion....) NOT IN SEX. Goddamnit it's hard to properly argue with you.... You keep going off topic. The initial statement was about sex, and still is. Consent before sex was the general subject, so I thought you could do simple math and connect the two subjects, but I guess not.

BECAUSE THEY ARE OPINIONS. Some people.....

Um... You didn't. I think you didn't understand the point of the second example, but nvm xD

Ah yes, this is what you say when a person actually has a life to tend do, unlike some people. Especially when I went to visit my uncle's grave.... Some people just lack this emotion called 'empathy' y'know?

Point 1 wasn't to say that enjoying sex = consent, you made this argument earlier and i responded to it then... To see my response to this already failed argument look at page 1 in the topic under my response that starts with "you saying that i'm saying 'it's not rape if he enjoyed it'...".

You still aren't understanding the 1st example... The fact isn't that you should UNDERSTAND that you're permitted to enter if i open the door for you, the fact is that you ARE permitted to enter whether the person understands that or not... I decided on my own to let you in and held the door open for you, i permitted you to enter. Whether you take me up on the offer because you don't understand is irrelevant. I've already explained this, but you just don't grasp anything i'm saying. The same applies to the seme fucking the uke, the uke didn't make any attempt to fight back and looked like he enjoyed it so the seme kept fucking him, he had no reason to believe anything was off because NOTHING WAS WRONG AND THE UKE DIDN'T MAKE IT SEEM LIKE ANYTHING WAS WRONG EITHER, the seme acted on the uke's wordless consent.

As far as the "initial statement being about sex and me going off topic", the initial statement was "people are misunderstanding the sex scene as rape, it's not rape because the uke actually consented wordlessly based on this: insert the in-manga evidence i went over earlier" to which you responded "there was no consent, he never said it's okay out loud" so OUR topic has been about whether or not you have to speak consent aloud. I'm not "going off topic", not that it matters since you don't need to stay on topic to make a point about said topic... i'm explaining to you that just because the uke didn't say "yes, i consent to this sex" doesn't mean there wasn't consent because consent doesn't need to be spoken aloud. I've already broken down the definition of consent and showed you that you can "permit, approve or agree" wordlessly, it is fact that you DO NOT have to speak consent aloud, i have literally given you examples. The only argument you've made against this is "well, it doesn't NOT say you have to speak it aloud" To which i responded "what the definition DOESN'T say is irrelevant, the definition is there to give a clear, straight-forward explanation of the topic and as such is meant to be taken at face value". You cannot argue that consent needs to be spoken aloud anymore, i've already debunked that argument and since consent can be expressed wordlessly, because it's an emotion and not a sentence, and based on the in-manga evidence i gave earlier you can clearly see the uke gave consent wordlessly.

You brought up the uke saying no again... You're like a broken record. The word no in itself can be applied to many different situations and used with different expressive meanings. You're saying that when the uke was saying no that he was feeling raped and asking the seme to stop the sex by making this as your argument, but the in-manga evidence i gave earlier shows otherwise. What i and that other guy said in response to this argument was "he isn't saying no because he feels raped, he's saying no because he has a dick being put up his ass for the 1st time and he doesn't know what else to say...". Here's the evidence i'm referencing btw: 1. The uke was saying "it feels so good" in his head during the sex which shows he physically enjoyed it and "how DO i feel about him" which shows that the uke was considering his feelings for the seme, not something you would be thinking if you were being raped. And 2. The uke and seme are talking normally RIGHT after the sex, the uke shows ABSOLUTELY NO signs of trauma or fear towards the seme.

Before you respond, please read through this carefully and make sure it doesn't already answer what you're about to say, i'm tired of having to explain literally everything i say in response to you when you inevitably misunderstand the meaning.

You're contradicting yourself in the third paragraph -_- Once again, it was actually your failed response.... A no is still a no, no matter what. The circumstamces don't matter, if you're pushing yourself on a person with him saying no countless times. You can't seem to understand this.....

You still don't seem to understand, but there's no reason to explain to you.... The message isn't getting over to you anyways :/ 'Wordless consent' SURE LIKE TRYING TO PUNCH HIM WHEN HE TRIED TO PUSH HIM DOWN? YEAH WORDLESS CONSENT LIKE SAYING 'WHAT ARE YOU DOING YOU BASTARD?' AND 'DAMN IT STOP!' SURE, SURE. It doesn't matter if the uke enjoyed ANY of the sex the moment he shows that much protest idk what else you can count that is if not rape.

'You cannot argue that consent needs to be spoken aloud anymore, i've already debunked that argument and since consent can be expressed wordlessly' with your 'facts'? Sure honey, you can think whatever you want. That was reffering to sex from the beggining and you took it to totally different places, like comparing gicing a fucking apple to giving consent before sex. The 'evidence' you pointed out is bs, refer to the second paragraph for a better explanation.
Point 2 : BS. Just straight up BS. Have you even read the fucking manga?

And I'm tired of you completely ignoring the most important part of the manga, but you don't seem to stop doing that, so why should I?

Gn btw~

Forgot this, about the last part of the 4th paragraph, there's a name for this phenomenon ; romanticized rape. Making rape a romantic experience, and adding some comedy to match the mood. It's done a lot in yaoi, so I'm a bit surprised you haven't heard of it yet.

Also, I'm a fan of this overused trope, no matter how disgustingly rapey it gets (づ￣ ³￣)づ

I know the what romanticized rape is... I've been reading yaoi for years now. If you want to just close your eyes to everything i said and just say "nuh-uh!" without giving any backing to your claims feel free, i've already addressed and debunked all your points so i don't need to say anymore. You were done too, right? I believe you mentioned a few times that you're bored? Gn too~

..... This whole post is just running away from what I’ve said. I’ve presented you with ACTUAL IN MANGA EVIDENCE and you just brush it off with a full post about consent.... When really, this was and still is romanticized rape. You’re ignoring what it is, and with ‘evidence’ from this FICTIONAL manga, you’re telling me that my definition of consent is wrong. I can’t argue with you properly if this is what you’re going to do....

Backing off when there’s actual evidence? Gee, and I thought I was ‘the closed minded’ one. You’re once again lying to yourself. Read my post properly. Don’t act as if what you presented before was evidence. I’ve backed ALL of my claims about the rape in the yaoi. If you still think that this isn’t rape after yourself knowing that the uke tried to PUNCH the seme before fucking him... You’re a sick fuck is all I can say.

I'm not addressing your "in-manga evidence" because you took it completely out of context and lied too. The uke never tried to punch him "before the sex", he tried to punch him because of a sudden kiss and when he said "you bastard", it was to say "you bastard! give me back my pants!" while blushing... You have no problem with taking little bits of text from the manga and cropping them out of even their sentences to try and back your point, try again, that part doesn't show the uke was feeling raped, if you read that part of the scene in it's entirety you see that it shows the uke surprised and embarrassed due to the sudden lack of clothes. Hell, if anything the part of the scene you're pointing out goes more with my side of the argument, if you review my very 1st few messages one is "was it rape? or mild shock?" and another is me agreeing with the other guy that the uke saying no was just because of said mild shock rather than feeling raped as what else is he going to say? This is another one of those issues where if you were reading my responses you would have already had the answer. I can't argue with you if all you're going to do is pull bits of text out of context and pull parts of the manga together that aren't connected (the punch in response to the kiss had nothing to do with the sex, the seme hadn't even started trying to fuck him yet... You actually tried to make it seem like the punch was IN RESPONSE to the sex, more specifically you were trying to make it look like the uke was attempting to fight him off... the two aren't connected...). Its dishonest and kind of desperate.

You’re calling me deseperate But look at yourself.... You’re still completely ignoring another part of my post and calling me ‘dishonest and kinda deseperate’. Now to your ‘arguments’ ; I don’t know how you see t, but this is all sexual assault. Kissing him without any consent stripping him without any consent.... It’s all in the same category as rape. That’s not a reaction of shock, that’s a reaction of ‘wtf, why are you stripping me’.

I'm not going to go into the definition of shock with you, if you want to see why you're wrong you can look at the definition yourself and consider "hmm... What parts in the sex scene exhibit signs of shock rather than the trauma associated with being raped against your will".

I’ve actually been cut off by my own phone when writing that, sorry for the spelling mistakes. That’s how I know you don’t know what romanticized rape is...

As i've said, there is a difference between consensual spontaneous sex and rape, If you want to see a real example of romanticised rape read Hatsujou where the uke actually makes an effort to fight his assailant off, calls it rape AND shows signs of trauma before inevitably falling in love after the manga gives a convenient reason for the rape.

Gosh you.... Yes, there is a difference. You seriously don’t know the meaning of romanticized rape...... That’s rape represented fairly and ONLY AFTER IT does the uke fall in love. It’s romance as a result of rape. Romantisized rape is : the author making rape a comedic/romantic experience, showing no trauma on the victim afterwards. IT IS RAPE, but it’s represented in a romantic light.

Small question, every yaoi sex scene that is represented like in this one, you don’t consider rape?

I'm not going to humor you any further... You aren't even giving an argument at this point, just mistakenly acting like i don't understand what romanticised rape is... The reason this isn't "romanticized rape" and is instead "consensual spontaneous sex" is because there was no rape involved as i've already proven. If you're just going to get all salty because you have no argument and insult my intelligence then you can leave.

‘As I’ve already proven’.... You.... You haven’t proven anything.... I’ve brought you actual arguments and you’re just brushing them off? I’ve brought you a genuine question, but that’s your decision if you want to answer it or not.

I would like to clarify one thing ; you indeed DONT know the definition of romantisized rape. The example manga you’ve brought has represented rape as what it is ; NON CONSENTUAL SEX. After that, the plot builds up and they fall in love. Let’s take another example ; hidoku shinaide. The mangaka shines a BAD light on their first sexual interactions, not taking it lightly, and even having the seme apologize for what he’s done in later chapters.

The true definition of romantisized rape is ; showing rape in a romantic light, and not showing what actual real life consequences people could get from getting raped. Some authors even add comedy to the after sex scene, just to make people like you doubt what truly happened.

Now to the truly most baffling part of your reply ; ‘get all salty because you have no arguments’. You mean the countless arguements I’ve given that you’re ignoring? I’ve told you the true definition of romantisized sex, and you didn’t try to counteract it. Is that what you do when you’re deseperate and don’t have any counter arguments?

‘Insult my intelligence’. So your yaoi knowledge is something that you take pride in? Lmao you haven’t read that much mangas, based on your profile at least.

I haven't had my profile for long... You haven't given me "countless arguments" either, and all the arguments you've brought forward i've countered... Also, that is just your interpretation of a concept only applied on sites like these... You didn't give me the "true definition" because there isn't one... Romanticized rape is something we manga readers came up with to describe a very common scene in yaoi... There is no definition, but there ARE some clear cut signs you can look for to see if the trope is there, those being:

1. The one being attacked tries to fight back, and no, just saying "no" isn't fighting back as in situations like in this manga it can be seen to clearly just be sex moans. Well, except by thick people.

2. The attacker acknowledges that the victim doesn't want the advances and continues anyways, the acknowledgment can be in their thoughts or out loud.

3. The victim exhibits signs of trauma usually during, but definitely after the rape and has a fear towards the attacker following the rape and fears being alone with him.

And 4. Convenient plot devise or exposition explains the rape away and victim falls for the attacker.

These are the "guidlines" everyone looks for when identifying the trope, since none are apparent in this manga it's not romanticized rape, it's consensual spontaneous sex. Also, specifically what have i not responded to? I keep telling you i've responded to all of your arguments and you just keep saying "you're ignoring my questions", it's concerning as it makes it seem like you're making things up to try and make it seem like i'm running away or something. I'm still here~

You haven't. It's that simple. Are you just that thickheaded? YES, a very common scene in manga, that doesn't have anything to do with this manga. There's rape represented IN A BAD LIGHT and rape represented in A ROMANTIC LIGHT. You're confusing two different things yaoi tropes.

1. HE DID FIGHT BACK. This is something you just can't accept for some reason. he fought back countless times and you're just ignoring it.
Now, here's another misconception. That's part of rape fetish. There are other manga where the word 'no' during sex doesn't appear. It appears specifically on these kinds of mangas, ROMANTISIZED RAPE MANGA.

2. That just straight up happened. The smirk on his face after he was clearly rejected is that.

3. And this is where you're confusing romantisized rape with another trope ; victim falls in love after being raped. Trauma, shows actual realistic traits and reactions related to rape, and then magically falls in love with the culprit. The trope we're talking about is making rape a romantic scene, adding comedy, and making people like you think 'oh it's just spontaneous sex.' Please learn the fucking difference. Those are two different tropes that shouldn't be confused.

Yes, but those are 'guildlines' for a totally different trope. Please learn the difference.
It's not consensual if the person tries to punch you after a mere kiss, curses at you after you WITH NO CONSENT strip him, and then fuck him while he's still saying no. I need to repeat the same things over and over again..... It doesn't matter WHY he said no, it doesn't matter if he actually liked it, AS LONG AS HE WAS AGAINST HAVING SEX, AND DISPLAYED IT OPENLY MULTIPLE TIMES THERE IS NO CONSENT.

Because you are.... I presented an actual question, I presented the definition multiple times, and you give me a totally unrelated definition.... And don't mention being passive aggressive about me trying to leave the conversation (page 1), and then doing it yourself by ignoring most of my previous post and making a pathetic reply, not addressing the issue at hand at all. Oh boohoo, your intelligence got insulted, not like you did it before.

Ugh... Bye. You just keep repeating your arguments and when i respond to them you do one of three things: 1. don't understand what i'm saying, i've had to explain what i've said multiple time now because you like to cherry pick parts of my arguments to misconstrue. You just did it again, i've already explained that the "no"s were just sex moans in this specific manga and scene and that him calling him a bastard was just out of embarrassment, not anger, you human broken record. 2. Just REPEAT your argument like a total dumbass even though i literally JUST addressed it. You've literally been saying the same things since this started and you wonder why i'm no longer bothering. Or 3. You literally just make shit up, like how you lied about the scene with him saying you bastard and the punch being AT ALL connected to the sex, you tried to say i was saying "it's not rape if the uke feels good" which literally isn't my argument and you only said that so you'd have something to stand on in your side of the argument and your latest "lets make shit up" session includes you saying i'm not responding to you. You're saying things like that all of the sudden and i believe you're trying to make me out to be a coward intentionally. As i've said, i already responded to everything you've said. You also didn't tell me specifically what i'm ignoring that you said, you just keep on saying "you're just ignoring my arguments" and then not telling me what supposed arguments, it almost seems like you're doing it on purpose. You're trolling at this point, you can leave now as i've already debunked you. Bye~

He didn't fight back... The "no"s were just moans, they were having sex, people say no during sex... The punch was a reflex of embarrassment, not anger or revulsion. He was suddenly kissed so he reacted without thinking, if the punch were out of revulsion due to rape then why didn't he try to punch him later when the sex started? He also didn't express any aversion to the sex like you claim he did? Aside from the moans, when did he express any type of aversion? Was it when they were talking calmly RIGHT after tge sex like nothing happened? You're grasping trying to argue that he was fighting off rape...I've already addressed literally everything you just said, i'm sick of repeating myself. Also, you keep saying "you're ignoring my arguments" and not telling me WHICH things i'm ignoring. I literally just asked you what i've ignored in my last response to you and you just replied with "you're ignoring my arguments" again. Are there ignored arguments you can name? Because i'm telling you i've already addressed all your arguments. Honestly, it seems like you're just trying to make me SEEM like i'm ignoring your arguments with how many times you've said that now. But why would you want it to look like i'm not arguing back properly? Oh, because you can't and haven't managed to counter literally ANY of my arguments so you're resorting to manipulation. I've already debunked you and since you're trolling i'm ending this conversation, you can leave.

Hey, i didn't see this message, i'm sorry to hear about your uncle, my mom just passed away a few months ago so i can relate.

I’m not trolling.,... You’re not reading my posts properly at all. I’ve made a full post about you confusing two totally different tropes, and you’re just repeating the same INVALID arguments. If you’re not even trying to read through and respond properly, and try to run three times (if not more) what am I supposed to say? You’re the one who’s repeating useless arguments.

I’ve explained it to you countless times ; A NO IS A NO. IT DOESNT MATTER WHY HE SAID NI, IT DOESNT MATTER WHY HE CURSED/PUNCHED HIM, AS LONG AS HE GOT DENIED, ITS FUCKING RAPE.

Between the two of us, you’re the troll :/

NO* I hate mangago I’m my phone ;-;

Thanks, and I’m sorry to hear ;-;

I didn't respond to that post because it's not correct, whether the rape is shown in a negative light and the uke later falls in love or the rape is shown in a comedic light to ease you in, they're both "romanticized rape". You're saying that the manga i gave as an example of romanticized rape and the guidelines i gave are to another trope, but neither is the case. In the manga i gave as an example the rape is brushed aside and romanticized as the "instincts of a wild animal" to appeal to a fetish, if that doesn't fit under "romanticized rape" then i don't know what does, the guidelines are accurate as well. As far as the seme sneering, i'lll have to read back.

Also, i "tried to run away"? I think it's more like you're trying to make it seem like i'm running away? This is that manipulation i'm talking about, you want any new readers on my topic to see those responses and think you're running the argument. It's a nice way to retreat. You're losing the argument so you start repeating things like "you aren't answering my arguments" so that when you leave the conversation it'll look like you left because i wasn't being rational... Disappointing. I can point you towards the 2 comments where you tried to leave WAY before you started accusing me of leaving.

1. Check under your comment that starts with "it also doesn't say it shouldn't be spoken aloud" towards the bottom of the 1ST PAGE, pretty early on to be backing out, but i guess you had no choice?

2. Check under your comment that starts with "i was talking generally" towards the top of page 2 where you yet again try to back out. If we're basing who's winning on the attempts to leave like you just did in this message i'm responding to, you've been trying to back out for FAR longer than when i first attempted to back out. I've attempted to back out 2 times btw, and the 2nd was about three messages ago. I only tried to because i've already countered everything you've said, you have nothing left to stand on and i didn't feel like beating the dead horse so i chose to leave. You were clearly attempting to leave with your tail between your legs.

But as you said, THE UKE TRIED TO RESIST. He even called the rapist what he is, A RAPIST. That’s why it isn’t romantisized rape, because of how it was shown, and the light that was shined upon it. You aren’t making any sense. You’re once again avoiding what I’m saying.

YOU DID. I BROUGHT YOU NEW ARGUMENTS AND YOU JUST IGNORED IT CATAGORIZING IT AS AN INSULT TO YOUR INTELLIGENCE. Wtf do you want me to catagorize that as? That’s an even more bs ‘argument’.... Because you’re doing the exact same thing you’re accusing me of doing. Because you really aren’t listening. You’re bringing up invalid arguments over and over again, and I’m getting sick of it. It really does seem pathetic. If you want to argue, respond to the arguments in question, or just read the caplocked sentence in my previous post. I could too point out the posts you were trying to back off, but that doesn’t have a lot to add as an argument related to this one. I used it as a simple jab, IN THE EXACT SAME WAY YOU USED IT.

1. That was because it was obvious where this argument would go. If you’re not responding to a full caplocked sentence, what am I supposed to think about you? Obviously this happened after I was trying to back out, but the signs were still there. Right off the beginning you tried to take it to a totally unrelated topic, probably realizing you couldn’t ‘win’ (if I say it in your way), and going to other topics you could make the other seem stupid. Also, what’s this obsession with ‘win or lose’?

2. Lmao no I’m not rewriting this just reread 1 or something
Except this ; you were trying to do that a few times too though. Isn’t that like taking a jab at yourself?

This response you just said only makes sense if you're still looking at romanticized rape under the definition you gave it to fit your agenda.

Lol, i knew you jump right on me saying "win", i even considered not saying it, but decided to leave it in so i could laugh when you responded exactly the way you did.

You seem mad, would you like to keep going with this... conversation?

Back at you..... Just back at you.... You have an unrelated definition, and it’s pretty easy to realize it from just reading your ‘correct definition’. It feels like you’re the one trolling.....

And that’s another way of you totally avoiding the unrelated topic that I gave arguments to....... You’re just trolling...... If you don’t intend to respond properly, just say so and I’ll mute this conversation.

And that’s you once again doing the same thing you called out me on a few posts ago..... You’re 100% trolling....

I'm totally trolling now, i can no longer take this seriously.

I mean.... Tbh, same. I can't take any more of this pretty useless argument (￣∇￣")

Ahaha, why not agree to disagree, i guess? -gives you a hug- (●'◡'●)ﾉ

Why not xD -sends online hug- ヾ(❀╹◡╹)ﾉ~

So..... Do you like cats?

good job guys

I do, they're my favorite animal. I had a beautiful flametail Siamese cat with light blue eyes named Cimba, he was an indoor-outdoor cat. I had to leave state so i left him with a relative. He was really pretty, but he was hilariously gross too, he'd shit over the side of the litterbox and scratch the dirt onto the side trying to cover it. He'd also clean his ass and then make this really gross face where his second eyelids would show and his mouth would be partially open. One time he had diarrhea, but he loved me so he jumped up from the floor into my arms and accidentally left a streak of shit down the side of my shirt... (￣∇￣")

That actually would be some interesting shit. But i doubt that lol

Oh yeah, i'm not even entertaining the idea that it even might happen. I thought it'd make everyone's life if it did happen though. (●'◡'●)ﾉ

haha omg that's hilarious!!! I've read some mangas with 'puppy' semes, so it is a possible situation, xD but hopefully not!

yeah, after all this years reading yaoi, I'm a bit fed up with rape, is not necessary for the plot!

IKR （￣へ￣）

Hear hear! I still don't understand why there is so much rape in yaoi. Is it the Japanese culture? Do the Japanese readers like it? Because the general opinion of readers here seems to be 'we put up with it but we don't like it'. Which is the normal reaction, liking rape is pretty fucked up no matter if it's fictional or not.

Well if we look at hentai... maybe it's a cultural thing?
It's like they don't want to admit that liking sex is a good thing so they make the boys and girls not like sex but end up getting screwed regardless?
I don't know...

Preach. I couldn't agree more

That's not even everything either... He's clearly in denial about being gay as well. The scene where he finally acted upon his desires, he got hard and when Hiro went to give him a handjob he freaked out, this scene told me 2 things: 1. He's a sexual sadist, not abusive. He wants anything but to hurt Hiro, but as a sadist he shows his love through pain. And 2. He's not okay with Hiro touching him sexually yet. He doesn't realize WHY he wants to hurt Hiro. That scene paired with him running away to Tokyo and getting a girlfriend after Hiro asks him if he likes Hiro told me that he's not just unsure, but also in denial.

praise.

he's been in an abusive relationship for 5 years. Doesn't make his behavior acceptable, but it does make it easier to understand what his headspace is like right now. He's never been properly loved or valued--after years of that, the idea of change, of good things, becomes terrible. Abuse survivors are trained to ruin their best things. Because they're afraid, and they know they don't deserve them.

5 years? Where did it say that? Wasn't the ex only being an asshole for a few months prior to the start of the story?

Also, he's never been abused... Just neglected. He says himself that he never expected the ex to rape him. The ex hadn't been as invested in the relationship as he was and it made him sad, hardly abuse.

I'm also starting to hate Mitsuru. Although I do believe that the ex definitely did abuse Mitsuru from the way they interact I can't stand that he's going back to his ex.

I didn't expect him to go to his boyfriend either (because he's so self hating) but damn at least don't jump back into the fire, have some self preservation or at the very least be honest to yourself that maybe meeting up with his old ex he had feelings for wasn't a good idea.

I'm especially mad because the only reason he's in this position is because of his lack of forethought. And that even when he's being offered what he wants he's not willing to look past his own insecurities to see what's happening to someone he's claiming to love so much. He should at least try (╯°Д °)╯╧╧

See, from what i got from the story, the ex treated him normally other than that he didn't put enough effort into the relationship. It seemed like Mitsuru was the way he was because he was in love with someone who didn't love him back. The guy agreed to date him, but mitsuru is so depressed because despite them being together he's feeling heartbreak.

Ohh yea I can see that being a possibility too. But something about the drama that the dudes causing over all of this is so weird and obsessive that I feel like something about the guy is off but I could just be trying to vilify the ex hehe ╮(￣▽￣)╭

Yeah, he definitely becomes obsessive, though it seemed to me that that is because he thoughtMitsuru was just going to be okay with the whole "hey i'm married now" thing, but he wasn't and then he thought that if he got a divorce mitsuru would come back to him, but he didn't and finally he found out mitsuru is dating another man even though he just shit all over his own life (had to pay lots of money in the divorce, parents are pissed off at him) to try and get mitsuru back. I feel bad for mitsuru, but i really think he dug his own hole to get stuck in when he decided to just leave his ex without telling him that they're breaking up and then when he ignored all of his ex's calls despite the ex having no idea what's going on which was basically the equivalent of him leaving his ex to slowly build up to the point of blowing up, which resulted in the "rape" scene... I just hate mitsuru now, just decided.

Ughh, I just wonder when the new update is coming I just wanna see the end
(〜￣△￣)〜

Yeah, i'm excited to see how it ends too~ ヾ(☆▽☆)

I guess I assumed their relationship was abusive because the two parts of it we get to see directly (the begining and the breakup) involve abuse.

Respectfully I disagree--I believe much of the ex's behavior qualifies as abuse. (also abuse & neglect often go hand in hand, neglect is a common form of abuse). And rape is not the only form of abuse. i've had serious abusers in my life who never sexually abused me, abusers who i can't imagine ever sexually assaulting me. But they are abusers nonetheless--their abuse just took different forms.

I'm looking forward to hating them all

I must have forgotten the abuse in the beginning, i'll have to look back. All i remember about their relationship at the start is Mitsuru wanting to be with his ex more and crying about it to Shougo. That's just loneliness, not abuse, he is being neglected as a lover. Neglect and abuse CAN go hand in hand, but the two don't HAVE to have anything to do with each other. If it seemed like i was implying that rape and sexual abuse are the only forms of abuse, that wasn't my intention, what i meant was that what Mitsuru was dealing with involving the ex towards the beginning of the story wasn't abuse, it was loneliness and only progressed to abuse when the ex went crazy. The ex didn't seem to treat him wrong in their relationship up until the breakup, or at least i didn't see any reason to think he did. Did Mitsuru mention anything like that or was there a flashback? Being an asshole to and abusing your lover are two different things. The ex just wasn't being attentive. If i were to fall in love with you over the course of this conversation and you quit responding (with no ill will, you don't really know how much i feel for you) to go read other manga, would you be abusing me because i miss you so much?

Thanks for reading my mind..

I agree with you, the seme in this manga is just an asshole who found one person that he cen't have so he wants to completely break him and toy with him... I can't see any emotions here, he just wants to torture the other guy... The seme deserves to be beaten up... I don't know if I'll read this till the end

Agreed