The 1st story was pretty okay, but the 2nd story so far is hot and exciting.
"He tried in his own way to save their friendship" and "they were young so he could've handled Heesu the way he did because he was overwhelmed"- i don't think anyone takes issue with the idea of wanting to save a friendship, it's that Chanyoung's reason for wanting to came across as a lot more selfish than the ideal is. It's like he just wanted to "save their friendship" for himself, you can see this in the way he went about doing it as he is willing to hurt Heesu as much as it takes to get him to give up. Ah, i think that's a better wording for what has taken place, you say he is "trying to save their friendship" which sounds a lot more innocent than the reality here, i think a more accurate description would be that he is more focused on wanting Heesu to "give up on him" rather than on "saving their friendship". Them being friends was just a reason why he wanted him to give up. You point out that the situation could've been "overwhelming" for him and that could've been why he chose the path he did, but if you look back he's comes to the conclusion that this is how he should do things after calmly assessing the situation. He noticed Heesu's feelings and had been thinking about what to do. He even acknowledges that the 1st time he was mean to Heesu, in the flashback when Heesu is being possessive of him and he says "i can't hang out with you all the time", that it was intentional. He purposely said that to hurt him and had thought out what to say.
"heesu never said he wanted to be in a relationship or that he wanted to move on"- This is something i've pointed out myself, Heesu had no intentions of confessing, he was happy to just leave things as they are and suffer when Chanyoung gets a girl. It was Chanyoung who noticed Heesu's feelings and took issue, hence me thinking Chanyoung should've confronted him himself as it wasn't an issue on Heesu's side. He just chose "to hurt him till he gives up so we can stay JUST friends" instead of handling this in a way even remotely decent. Not sure how Chanyoung's actions are "Heesu's fault"? I've said this before, but it takes more courage to confess than it does to confront as in a confrontation he would've been making it clear that he JUST wants to be friends. Since Heesu had no incentive to do the much more difficult action of confessing to his straight best friend, and since the issue was on Chanyoung's side, he should've been the one to say something.
"Chanyoung's motivations in trying to maintain their friendship come across selfish. Heesu comes across as that he would carry the sky for him. I feel like Chanyoung wants to maintain their relationship while diverting Heesu's feelings elsewhere."- This goes into what i was saying in the 1st section. I don't feel like the focus was so much "saving/maintaining their friendship" so much as "getting him to give up" with their friendship being a reason why. If he treasured their friendship he wouldn't have chosen to "hurt him into giving up" as he'd care about hurting Heesu. He's too okay with hurting Heesu for me to think he cares about him, he makes it come across as a "necessary evil" while smiling and showing NO remorse. Also, it's not just that he's "trying to divert his feelings", he didn't care who they went to or the outcome of those feelings being diverted. Before he even found out Seungwon has feelings for Heesu, Chanyoung noticed them spending time together and his immediate thoughts were to try and see if Sungwon could take Heesu off his hands for a while because they "need time apart" as he says at Sungwon's house. He was going to push Heesu off onto a straight guy that he doesn't really know... It didn't matter WHO it was and the fact that it was a "straight guy" (he only started to have a hunch that Seungwon might have feelings for Heesu AFTER he left Seungwon's house. At the very least, he didn't have the hunch at that point in their conversation, the part where he mentions time apart) shows that he didn't care about the outcome either, it just ended up being lucky that this guy gave him a hunvh that he might be into Heesu.
"despite all this, Chanyoung hasn't done anything wrong, not to the point of being dislikeable"- i COMPLETELY disagree here, all of his actions were morally wrong at best and his motivations/intentions behind those actions have always been dubious as well. You're right, Chanyoung's actions ARE hurtful, that was the point, TO hurt Heesu. Not sure how his actions aren't dislikeable when he himself acknowledges that he's "purposely been being mean". ┑(￣Д ￣)┍
I see TOO many Chanyoung sympathizers (to each their own, i just can't agree with any opinions that try to paint Chanyoung in even a neutral light as he was clearly intentionally made to be controversial. He literally acknowledges himself that he's "being mean" in his approach to Heesu's feelings, huge understatement. He IS the "villain" in this manga, he fits the criteria at least. He's the deus ex machina manipulating the MC, to the MC's detriment, from the sidelines.) For some reason people feel the need to defend the actions of Chanyoung when he himself is admitting they aren't great.
Can I ask you how you would've handled the situation? What would you have said to your friend?
I'm just wondering, not criticizing ok? I have never had that kind of situation or anything similar so i'm really curious
Yeah, no problem. When i was in high school there was this family friend of ours, an older guy, he found out i was gay and started to "court" me. He call me beautiful, he started to spend more time with me, tried to get me to go drinking with him and even propositioned me with sex. At the time i was kinda considering getting a bf so it took me a bit before i decided i just didn't see him that way, he wasn't my type. I told him while it was just us that i "couldn't see him that way and didn't want to lead him on". We stayed just friends after that. Another time in highschool my friends Dakota, Josh and i were talking at the end of class. Dakota asked me if i found either of them attractive and i said i found them both attractive, but i'd date Josh. The tone of the conversation was light hearted, just Dakota being curious, and the way i said "i'd date Josh" could've been laughed off, but Josh looked me in the eyes then and said with a serious face "i'm really flattered but i'm straight". It honestly made me really happy because you could tell from the mood change there that he really took me seriously and gave me a proper response. Not going to lie, i kenda fell for him a little more there, he just came across so cool about it, i definitely got a bit more into him because of that. The mood went back to just the three of us talking after that and it was no big deal, Josh'd hang out with me alone with no awkwardness and everything.There was another time at work recently where i was talking to one of my female friends/a co-worker, i asked her what she'd do if i randomly got a gf even though i'm gay and she said "i'd wonder why it wasn't me", i immediately said "if i were straight i probably would date you, i think you're attractive, but i AM gay and couldn't look at any females that way". we've been friends since. It's better to confront peoples' feelings (if you KNOW they feel romantically about you, but you wont reciprocate) so that they can get closure and you guys can move on. If they think you're still an option, even if it's a mall hope that even THEY admit is unrealistic, they wont look at other people. Trust me, i know. I crushed on my childhood friend Mason for years and while he did reject me when i confessed, i always felt there was still a chance and because of that i'd pretend to hang out as a friend and still secretly pretend we were on dates (sometimes i'd purposely say "this is like a date" when we went out to go eat, it was something we did with just the two of us pretty often. I'd even offer to pay for him sometimes and he wouldn't mind), etc... You just let them know that you can't reciprocate while making it clear that you don't want to lose them as a friend.
Now hopefully Mari will be able to forgive him as well. Mari was initially ecstatic that he was dating her brother as she wanted Sihoon to be happy, till she was told Junyoung broke up with him by Sihoon, then she got mad at Junyoung while thinking "what part of him wasn't good enough"? She has every right to be pissed that her best friend dated her brother while thinking that he's her boyfriend, that is a betrayal. Her own affair has nothing to do with it. You can commit the worst sin imaginable and still feel upset when you realize someone you viewed as "important" has betrayed you.
I suppose i'll talk on Mari's affair as well. I think the way she talked to the ex-wife was definitely not okay, but that's it. From what i understand, it was only an "affair" in the sense that he was still married on paper, is that right? If you look, he's only prostrating himself to Sihoon, not his wife, he's apologizing to Sihoon for seeing his sister behind his back, but never to his wife for "seeing someone behind her back". Because it wasn't behind her back. They were broken up and going to divorce, he moved on to another relationship and had no obligation to tell her, hence him only apologizing to Sihoon and not his wife. That's what i think anyways. Then the wife got pissed off, even though they were going to divorce anyways, because he already found someone else and so she was going to go out him to Sihoon out of spite towards her husband/because she wanted Sihoon to know as well? Or is it that he was two timing his wife with Mari? I don't remember it implying that though. If he was pretending everything is fine to his wife while seeing Mari, i can understand her being upset, but it really seemed to me she was just being petty and that the two weren't really a thing anymore when he started seeing Mari. He says he "just fell for her and she liked me back". It implies he was already done looking at his wife in a romantic light and was open to looking at others when he saw Mari and fell.
Wasn't Kyunghee's mom wearing different clothes that she went to sleep in? Then, even though she's supposed to have fallen asleep, she appears there in different clothes and takes the knife? What? Lol. Also, it's not just ch 39 that feels rushed/disjointed from the story, ch 37-38 did too, to me at least. It shows Kyunghee sympathize with Sihyoon in that scene where he looks back while he's being fucked from behind and sees Sihyoon looking really sad when he says "why do you look like that?", it shows him blush when Sihyoon appears at the elevator and helps him, it shows him thinking a few times that Sihyoon might not be so bad/he's hot/he wants to be fucked by him, but then in ch 37-38 he randomly asks Junsik to kill him? After they just had sex and he was thinking maybe he should just give in for his mom's sake? It completely went against the flow of Kyunghee's growing feelings for Sihyoon, though the decision to have him killed fit in with him wanting a normal life for his mother and him.
It seemed like Sihyoon was just taking care of him as he's suicidal now. I don't think that they're, neither of them, happy at all. Sihyoon wanted whats best for Kyunghee, it's what he talks about with Kyunghee's mother twice, he just couldn't help but hurt him to keep him in his life. He really hated their situation and wanted a normal relationship, he says this numerous times when he says things like "if you'd just behave things wouldn't be like this" and in the way he treats Kyunghee gently when they aren't fighting. Now he sees Kyunghee broken and you can tell just from the ambience in ch 39 that their relationship is just... Sad. He's not smiling and he barely talks, all he says is that Kyunghee should head back and that Hyunjun wouldn't want this for him. All his flare/haughtiness is gone. There isn't really anything indicating they're together anymore. I think the only reason Kyunghee is still in contact with him is because of what he says at the very end, "I'll be there soon. With my new father". It looks to imply that he's still interacting with Sihyoon so that he can "bring" him to her. It mentions that Sihyoon quit his job before showing Kyunghee going to visit Junsik in prison for some closure, placing flowers at his mother's grave while revealing the cuts and then him and Sihyoon going... Somewhere. I think it's supposed to imply 2 endings here: 1. That Kyunghee is going to kill himself and either talked Sihyoon into joining or Sihyoon offered to join as he's his world. This explains the closure with Junsik and the flowers on the grave that, for some reason, reveal his cuts. Or... 2. Sihyoon has been taking care of a suicidal Kyunghee who plans to kill him and himself for his mother. It's either a double suicide or a homicide into suicide, i think. That's it, there isn't really anything implying they're still "together".
I have to disagree. Shiyun has used Kyunghee's mother to manipulate him throughout the entire manwha. (The sole reason he got close to her was to get to Kyunghee) The only person's happiness and well being Shiyun cares about is his own. And I think Shiyun is still manipulating Kyunghee to the very end. I will agree with the murder/suicide thinking by Kyunghee at the end.
Yeah, but it implied he was only manipulating her to keep Kyunghee in his life. EVERYTHING was to keep Kyunghee in his life, but there were several moments where it showed that Sihyoon wasn't happy with his relationship with Kyunghee being forced and his conversations with Kyunghee's mother alluded as much as well. It's fine if you disagree, but it really is all there.
I'll quote your original post - "Sihyoon wanted whats best for Kyunghee, it's what he talks about with Kyunghee's mother twice, he just couldn't help but hurt him to keep him in his life. He really hated their situation and wanted a normal relationship, he says this numerous times when he says things like "if you'd just behave things wouldn't be like this"
So, if Shiyun truly wanted what is best for Kyunghee instead of himself, he wouldn't have gone to such extremes to keep an unwilling Kyunghee on a leash. Even though Kyunghee is not totally innocent in this game either... In the end, a horrible price was paid by an unwitting victim. (Mom) To each his/her own perspective.
"if Sihyun really wanted what's best for Kyunghee instead of himself, he wouldn't have gone to such extremes to keep an unwilling Kyunghee on a leash"-this right here is where we disagree, it's entirely possible to wish you could give someone/thing everything while not being able to for one reason or another. What i've been saying is that, while he WANTS to have a good, willing relationship with Kyunghee, he sees that it's impossible and so to keep Kyunghee in his life he HAS to keep Kyunghee on a leash. He loves Kyunghee very much, it shows him hurting multiple times over the state of their relationship, albeit in quick/subtle moments, but he made his decision already and he planned to follow through with it to the end. It'd all be worth it for him if he can just have Kyunghee. He says "if you'd behave it wouldn't be like this", he literally says he'll treat Kyunghee well if he'll just accept him for real. The entire point of this was to try and weasel his way back into Kyunghee's heart, Kyunghee's mother was just necessary collateral damage as Kyunghee wouldn't even look at him without her as the bargaining chip. He gets visibly upset when Kyunghee doesn't fall for him, he hates that Kyunghee is fighting him and that he goes to sleep with Junsik. He sees that Kyunghee is being pushed away despite his efforts and he gets really jealous and upset. There is REALLY heavy implication that Sihyun is in love with him, like, a lot.
-continuation- by the end of the manga Kyunghee is broken, Sihyun is broken from seeing Kyunghee broken and, i think, they are no longer in a romantic relationship. I feel that it would have been pretty explicit in showing it if they were, like the rest of the manga. Kyunghee has no thoughts about Sihyun after his mother dies, don't you think he'd have some thoughts on him if they were still together? What would Sihyun even use to manipulate Kyunghee at this point? The feeling that the manga gives is just "irreverible damage", the kind that killed even Sihyun's will to hurt Kyunghee for the sake of their relationship any further. Kyunghee is dead inside and there is no longer anything for Sihyun to grab onto. He sees what happened and is just kinda... There. This is what i think, at least. You won't be able to convince me otherwise tbh, so if you disagree then just say so and we can leave it at that. I just didn't want you ignoring that there definitely is a lot of implication that Sihyun loves and really cares for Kyunghee.
Sorry I meant to like your post! Thanks for clarifying all that I was a bit confused at the end.
Yeah, no problem!
Actually, the author states in the extra at the end that "Kang Sihyun (who started this whole mess) got Kyunghee back" and Kyunghee "isn't free of him." She goes on to note, however, that this is not the same Kyunghee from the start of the story, but someone who is "completely dead inside." So it's definitely not the ideal romantic relationship Sihyun wanted. I do agree that it seems like Sihyun is looking after him out of concern and perhaps Kyunghee plans to kill both himself and Sihyun in the near future.
That's as open ended as the last chapter itself... "got him back"? Well, yeah. We see that they're together, my argument was that they aren't in a romantic relationship anymore BECAUSE Kyunghee is broken now. I think what it means by "he got him back" is that Kyunghee is no longer actively trying to escape, but only because he wants to take Sihyun with him to "complete" his family with a "new father" up in heaven with his mother. During the final talk with Kyunghee's mother the topic is "giving up your own happiness for the sake of Kyunghee's happiness", you see him get really straight faced and contemplative about this while saying to Hyunjung that she be greedy every once in a while. It looks like he's really taking what she says seriously in his case, but that he doesn't think SHE should have to because of how much she already thinks of Kyunghee. Then he's completely straight faced when he goes to tell Kyunghee that the worst possible thing has happened, he doesn't whisper shit into Kyunghee's ear to manipulate things, he just sits back looking pained and watches as Kyunghee dies inside. I think what it means by "he got him back" is that Kyunghee is no longer actively trying to escape, but only because he wants to take Sihyun with him to "complete" his family with a "new father" up in heaven with his mother.
He totally ruined the mood ***between the two of them*** with the "sugar baby" bit (he was all blushy at the thought that it was a confession, then he heard "sugar baby" and cooled off)! It looked like he was falling and was expecting a confession, i think if he'd asked him out it would've worked! Now he thinks he's weird. I'm sure there'll be some reveal about how he thinks he has to pay for love or something, like maybe he thinks they won't stay otherwise?
Am i the only one irritated with how Nao guilt tripped Ryuu into being the uke? Like, i completely agree that in a relationship you need to compromise, but i don't feel that what she said was applicable to their dilemma, tbh. Sexual preference isn't "being greedy" or "not compromising", it's just a preference. He's just inherently a top, he'd never thought about being done and when he was propositioned with being the bottom his immediate response was to not want to. It feels like he was guilt tripped into doing something he didn't want to do while as Hiroto naturally came to the conclusion that he'd let Ryuu be seme WITHOUT any outside influence, so it doesn't feel like Hiroto was all that invested in topping anyways. Let's face it, he wouldn't have given up the seme position if she hadn't said something and it's not like he necessarily looks happy about it, he is all straight faced and spacey all the way up till he bottoms, you can see he really had to talk himself into it while as Hiroto was just going to do it after some thought. Idk... I just feel like she interfered where she didn't need to.
When they fight at the end of ch 2 and into ch 3, it's not even their positions that Hiroto gets upset about, it's that Ryuu wont respect his wishes to not have sex because his sister is there. He feels like Ryuu is trying to "own" him, this has nothing to do with their sexual positions, but somehow ends up bleeding into that. He just wanted Ryuu to cherish him, treat him special, rather than as another one of his "objects". Somehow, this fight in combination with what Nao said makes him come to the conclusion he should set aside his preference and bottom for Hiroto. Yes, he was being selfish when he demanded they have sex or break up, and THIS falls under what Nao was saying, but no his preference wasn't him "being greedy" and shouldn't have been lumped in with that fight. If he'd wanted to do this himself, after topping Hiroto a few times and seeing that he still wants to top, it would've been fine, but it feels like he doesn't really want to so much as that he thinks he SHOULD out of guilt.
It's also annoying because i had thought Ryuu was going to bottom anyways up till ch 2 because of how Hiroto calls him "cute" and basically describes him as a queen, so i was excited when he suddenly got a dose of masculinity and looked like he was going to top. He looked like a sexy top too, he was so aggressive/assertive... at least go seke... Then it just threw us back on the established path. ╮(￣▽￣)╭
Her statement was centred around their whole relationship. Basically, this was the first time the uke didn't get things how he wanted.
Didn't he come up and talk to her about their roles? Even if she WAS talking about their whole relationship, how is anything outside of their sex life relevant to the problem? This is what i meant when i said it felt like he was guilt tripped, why bring up other things he gets? "man, i really want to top him, but he doesn't want to.", "Well, you get everything you want, aren't you being selfish?". Do you see the problem there? Sexual preference isn't the same as getting your boyfriend to give you his snack, you can call THAT greedy, but him wanting to top is just a preference. How is him getting his way in other things relevant to their sex life?
I mean thought it was fine. The uke wanted to top and so did the seme. So far not a problem. The uke not wanting to talk and compromise and instead saying "well since I can't get what I want let's just break up" that's not ok, and that's what makes him be in the wrong
"let's break up"- It's been awhile so i don't remember that, do you remember what page it was on? Something i'd like to point out is that people do that and it's not "in the wrong", especially gays. Choosing to stay with someone you aren't sexually compatible with makes no sense. It worked out here because he ended up liking anal, but what if he hadn't? What if it just didn't feel good to him? Would you have still expected him to stay? People are selective with their sexual partners and that's okay. It's just sexual preference.
I do not remember the page :/ pretty sure they referenced it in chapter 3 so it must have been... end of chapter 2? Maybe? And I get that he has his preferences and that fine but I mean if there was love there... they should have talked about it? Like I love you so maybe we can switch every night or something? I mean he didn't even let the situation sink in before he suggested breaking up.
Yeah, that makes sense. I'll have to look back ch 2, ty. ლ(´ڡ`ლ)
Why do some people seem to act like Jinwoo is AT ALL to blame for any of this? People are saying he's "cheating on his gf"... What? He has never consented to being touched by Sangtae, he's actually done the opposite and protested it. Jinwoo is just so caught up in the fantasies that he can't help but feel good when he's touched and he lacks the physical strength to escape. He isn't "cheating", he's being sexually assaulted (Looks like full on rape next chapter, though someone says it just LOOKS like there is penetration), he just handles it really well... or at least it seems like he does because the manga always portrays the scenes in a comedic light. It's the equivalent of saying someone drugged with an aphrodisiac is consenting to sex even if they say no because they're turned on. It's just a physical reaction. Why should Jinwoo have to tell ANYONE (aside from maybe the police, but he looks like he enjoys it when it happens so it might be hard to prove it's sexual assault/rape) about him being sexually assaulted/raped? It has nothing to do with his GF aside from if he wants someone to lean on.
I agree with you... I am really feeling bad for Jinwoo like his initial situation is not really that good and then it got worse because of that seme....
Aside from Jinwoo kicking the statue... He has no another fault in the flow of the story... He is having lewd visions of himself and he cannot even control it, he tried but because howof extreme they were, he cannot resist it...
It was the seme who helped or took advantage of Jinwoo being horny and the seme actually no reason to hold back why? He is a sadist and a bully... So the sexual acts are not cheating but just to calm Jinwoo.... Does Jinwoo intended it??? HELL NO!
That is why I pray that Jinwoo would have a better treatment or he could just get away from Sangtae... but no.... arrgg...
I can't agree that he is "helping to calm Jinwoo down", Sangtae is clearly taking advantage of the situation, he gets horny when he sees Jinwoo in his current predicament and uses "i'll help you out" as an excuse to relieve himself.
Oh yes, yes it is!! I Agree... you have clearer explanation than I do.... He is really taken advantage of Jinwoo....
Actually, Sangtae really was just going to help Jinwoo out. If you go back, you'll see that Jinwoo was the one who rubby-dub-dubbed his booty against Sangtae's erection. Jinwoo knew what he was doing, he smirked in the next panel. Sangtae wasn't going to join in but Jinwoo did that, so he did. Jinwoo was okay with it. At the end when they kissed, Jinwoo was the one who kissed Sangtae first. That mean he consented to this, or at least was okay with it. Sangtae didn't even put it in, that shows that he wasn't entirely taken over by lust.
Spoilers....
...
....
In the next chapter, they only rubbed lightsabers. Sangtae doesn't put it in. Jinwoo did freak out after probably like "omg i can't believe we did that" (idk for sure tho, I don't know korean) but Sangtae does help Jinwoo out. Like they had meeting and sat side by side, Sangtae held Jinwoo's hand to stop the fantasies from happening. Sangtae gave Jinwoo a period pad so he doesn't mess up his underpants when his releases his manly fluid during work. Sangtae obviously cares for Jinwoo.
Okay, i'll break down the chapter for you:
First, you mentioned how on ch 10, pg 28 he pushes his ass on Sangtae's erection and smiles, but you saying it like that is really deceptive. He did that with his eyes GLAZED OVER after having been fondled while under an aphrodisiac like effect... With that out of the way, let's look at the events LEADING UP TO that.
On ch 10, pg 9 he says "i came to beg you to stop the fantasies", on ch 10, pg 22 you can see for yourself Sangtae getting horny while Jinwoo describes his situation (in the few pages before 22) and suddenly grabbing a startled Jinwoo while panting and blushing (Jinwoo says "W-what are you doing!" here and protests the whole time after, the ENTIRE sex scene) before saying "in that case i'll help you out" while looking away as it's obvious even to him it's an excuse to relieve himself (seriously, look here, he looks away while panting/blushing while he's saying he'll "help" and you expect me to believe he's not just horny?), on ch 10, pg 23 you see Sangtae suddenly pull Jinwoo's pants down without permission which results in Jinwoo saying "WHOA! ARE YOU CRAZY!" (another protest) on pg 24 before he comments on Jinwoo's size and starts to fondle him, on ch 10, pg 25 you see Jinwoo say "h-hey wait a min--! Son-of-a... You said i was wrong, but you really are... A gay pervert!" while saying in his head that he hasn't been touched in a while so it feels good (a physical reaction, as i said, he's outwardly saying stop while acknowledging that he can't help but feel good), on ch 10, pg 26 you see him say "bullshit! There's no way..." when Sangtae points out he's getting harder and asks if he's actually enjoying it (classic rapist sentence to manipulate their victim into thinking they wanted it so it wasn't rape), on ch 10, pg 29 Jinwoo asks "w-why are you doing this" (STILL trying to fight off the effects of the fantasies, but you can see that his eyes have been starting to glaze over for a bit now), on ch 10, pg 30 Jinwoo makes it very clear he doesn't want his thighs fucked when Sangtae says to put them together and he yells "WHAT?!". And then the rest is just Sangtae fucking his thighs till they both cum.
Also, on ch 10, pg 36 Jinwoo says himself "i-i told you to stop. The fantasies stop when you touch me, is what i was trying to say", in other words he didn't even need "help" and was trying to say that, but Sangtae got horny and sexually assaulted him which resulted in him PHYSICALLY (not emotionally, he protested the entire time) feeling too good to finish what he was saying. Like, he literally couldn't speak. It's shown how the fantasies cripple him multiple times, he always ends up HAVING to masturbate before he can function again. It's a major case of blue balls. Now, Jinwoo JUST told him that "the fantasies stop when you touch me", which means Sangtae KNOWS he can stop them by just touching him, but in ch 11 he purposely watches Jinwoo squirm on the train and then in ch 12 pulls him into a restroom stall and sexually assaults him again. Still think he's trying to "help" as opposed to taking advantage of Jinwoo's literal INABILITY to not be horny around him when he could've just put a hand on his shoulder on the train to help?
Yeah, I agree Sangtae isn't 100% a good guy. He has bad intentions, he's a sadist, that's been established. But think about it this way; on the train, at work it would be odd for the two of them to walk in holding hands. Not sure if the universe in this manhwa allows open gay relationships but even then two coworkers who barely get along suddenly showing up all close is weird so of course they can't be open and hold hands all the time. So it's done in secret.
In chapter 10, you basically ignored a lot of the thoughts Jinwoo had so let me add them:
-"This feels ridiculously gooooood!"
-"Why'd he have to focus on the tip so much?! All this precum is starting to get embarrassing." (Of all things, he feels EMBARRASSED about his PRECUM. Wow.)
-(when he rubbed his ass on Sangtae)"Take that, then!"
-(After Sangtae told him to wait)"Why? You've already touched me all over!" (He basically teased Sangtae. You can't deny that Jinwoo's is also at fault here.)
-"Wow. His hot breath. It must be getting hard for him to hold back."
-"It's a strange feeling. He's usually so carefree that it's annoying." (Then goes on to how Sangtae calls his name in a nervous voice which he never heard before.)
Let's go back to before this happened, same chapter. But this time put yourself in Sangtae's shoes. Horny dude comes up at your door mad because he can see your sexual fantasies. Sangtae acts appropriately, suggesting Jinwoo needs to go to the hospital and get checked out. Sangtae literally had no idea about what was happening until now. We all know that Sangtae is a pervert which has been established, okay, we get it. So how the heck does he respond to Jinwoo saying:
"When I'm with you, all I think about is sex, sex... And more sex. I'm hard all day long."
Oh, then Jinwoo freaking flashes his sword so Sangtae can see all it's glow-stick glory. Like he went to the extreme. Honestly, both are at fault here. Jinwoo could have done a better job of explaining that didn't involve flashing.
Sangtae suggests masturbation, Jinwoo says that be can't do that wherever or whenever. Which is why in one chapter Sangtae gives Jinwoo a pad so that Jinwoo doesn't get blue balls. So now, Jinwoo can just cum in his pants when he needs to.
As for the "eyes glazing over" that's pretty common when you have sex you kind of lose yourself by lust, Jinwoo was feeling the lust, Sangtae also. You can tell Jinwoo liked it, or at least that he wasn't entirely against it. You can also say that it's something that he got caught up in the moment with and wasn't thinking clearly, which isn't that uncommon to have accidental "sex". If he didn't want it, you would think that he would struggle a bit more, no? And if Jinwoo did make it very clear that he didn't want it, or that he felt that it was rape, I would expect screams, sobbing, maybe him pushing Sangtae away, dramatic coloring, thoughts emphasizing that he does not want it, something more than just a bunch of "Ahh!" "Hng!" And tiny hearts everywhere. We know Jinwoo is strong enough to defend himself, he slapped Sangtae, he yanked himself out of Sangtae's grasp earlier in the chapter when Sangtae was about to drag him to the hospital.
But whatever, if you think that way about Sangtae I understand your view but I'll keep my thoughts as well. Sangtae isn't perfect, but neither is Jinwoo.
No, you're reaching... Like, a lot. On everything you said in that last response... It's not me "ignoring bits", you're the one taking everything out of context in a very sad attempt (Sad because your evidence is weak, not because you think he was consenting. If you'd actually provided a valid argument with evidence that was actually within context, i would've been open to being swayed, but your evidence doesn't back anything you say if you actually read through the chapter and comprehend the flow of events) to make it look like Jinwoo was at all consenting... Yeah, he says all those things, i wasn't "ignoring" them, i put the pages there so you and anyone else could read them... What you're ignoring is the context in which he said those things... Again, it's shown multiple times that the fantasies literally incapacitate Jinwoo, he said those things after having been so turned on by the constant fantasies that he was oozing out precum from just a little fondling... He was already hard and panting/blushing when he got there... He said those things with his eyes glazing over... No, you saying "well, when people feel good their eyes glaze over" isn't a valid counter to me bringing this up. I wasn't saying he wasn't turned on, i was saying he couldn't help being turned on and didn't want what was happening. In other words, yes he felt good, but it wasn't consensual. You can look at this the same as being drugged with an aphrodisiac. You tell me to put myself in Sangtae's shoes, put yourself in Jinwoo's. Hopefully you aren't BI so that you can actually put yourself in this situation. He's straight, if he weren't cursed he'd never have had any gay experiences like this aside from maybe accidents. I don't know about you, but I'M a gay man and the thought of being forced to see and feel some chick's sexual fantasies about me literally disgusts me. Like, no joke. And i imagine it's the same to a straight guy being forced to see and feel himself getting fucked by a man. I literally just gave you multiple protests and him saying "i-i told you to stop". Not sure what else you need. I'm not going to respect an opinion with no logic that ignores reality.
I was saving this as a bit of a trump card, but i guess now works. Jinwoo HIMSELF even says he doesn't believe Sangtae was just trying to help. Look at ch 10, pg 36 where Sangtae responds to Jinwoo saying "I-i told you to stop. The fantasies stop when you touch me, is what i was trying to say" by saying "Oh... Is that right? Sorry... I would've finished sooner if i knew... " (clearly comes across as a lie tbh, too many pauses there). Jinwoo replies with "bullshit". He's literally saying that Sangtae wasn't trying to help him, that it was just Sangtae taking advantage because he was horny. You read the same things i did and STILL argued that Sangtae was "just trying to help"... You're delusional. Like, you basically ignored this ENTIRE chapter.
Who said anything about "holding hands on the train/while going into work"? I didn't. I said he could've "put his hand on his shoulder", but you'll just make shit up for your argument. A hand on someone's shoulder, especially male to male, isn't viewed as intimate. You also talk about Jinwoo flashing Sangtae, again, context is key here. Jinwoo had already told him about the sex fantasies, but Sangtae didn't believe him and tried to take him to the hospital, he only did that to prove it... How do you prove you're "constantly horny because you're constantly being forced to watch something akin to a porn loop in your head"? By showing the results. "Look, my dick is constantly hard, there's proof.", instead of Sangtae JUST taking it as proof he gets all horny while looking at Jinwoo and decides to take advantage, that isn't Jinwoo's fault. By that logic, any doctor has the right to have sex with you since you're whipping out your dick for them... (Also, here's that scene you were mentioning out of context, notice how at this point Sangtae has yet to sexually assault Jinwoo and until he does Jinwoo is able to keep a certain level of coherency as well as strength? Enough to shake Sangtae off, here BEFORE he's being groped while already horny? His eyes don't glaze over either. Then all the sudden Sangtae pulls his pants down and immediately starts fondling his dick before he can react. You see what happens AFTER the sexual assault starts? How he isn't able to talk so much, his eyes start to glaze over and despite literally every word that comes out of his mouth being a protest, all he can do is let it happen? It's almost like he's so turned on by the sexual fantasies and now the actual touches after he "hasn't been touched in a while" that his body wont do what he wants it to. You know, like in literally EVERY other scene where this happened? Remember when he had to leave work numerous times because he couldn't physically take the fantasies and still function)?
My take on all this: -note: i use caps to put emphasis on words-
Is he a dick? No. He's confused. People are probably irritated with him because it felt like he was "cheating", but neither of them spoke up on what their current relationship became after Kaede's rejection. Zono was under the impression he was just lusting after Fumi and that Fumi was just using him for sex to get over his heartbreak, a mutually beneficial relationship, all the while slowly starting to feel the effects of his undiscovered feelings. He was (trying) to sleep with other people (seemed to actually just be Emi he slept with?) BECAUSE he thought Fumi just wanted him for sex and that if they're just FWB and he's just "after Fumi's body" (in other words, playing around or sex for pleasure, very common) then there isn't a problem with it, he just didn't realize his feelings until they literally became TOO great to ignore as he could no longer JUST view Fumi as a FWB. Fumi was with Zono because he likes him, but unsure as to what their relationship was as he agrees that he thinks they're just FWB when Emi says so, luckily by this time Zono can no longer look at Fumi as FWB so he is able to confess after hearing Fumi confess as well. Honestly, i think he planned to confess anyways, that was the point of this chapter, it was to show his emotions finally reach the point where their relationship is just "not enough", as he says. I think Fumi just beat him to it and when his insecurities about Fumi's feelings dissipated he just threw it out there. I mean, would a FWB agree to go on a date? I think he planned to confess. He took it as a date even though it was later revealed that Fumi just wanted to cheer him up. Meaning he thought, "this guy, my FWB, just asked me on a date. Hell yes.", he looked very excited and got all dressed up.
Was his attitude bad? Yes. But only because he has a fetish for making people cry and he'd been acting on that until it was physically no longer enough. Then he realized that what he felt for Fumi this entire time went beyond his fetish and didn't know how to treat Fumi anymore, he stopped wanting to see him cry. I know many wont agree with this, but i actually agree with Zono when he says he "won't apologize" for their relationship up till now as, from both of their perspectives, nothing was established. There was no talking so Zono didn't realize Fumi's feelings till just now, hence me agreeing that neither he nor Fumi should have to apologize for their relationship up till now. It wasn't just Fumi who was upset by things, you can see Zono is upset at the thought of being used and he says this himself as well, "i'm tired of using you and being used by you". I feel that if they'd talked after Kaede's rejection and Fumi had made it clear that he wasn't in it just for sex, but was actually in love, this would've sparked Zono to realize his feelings and change their relationship earlier. It was all he needed just now for everything to fall into place and i think it would've been earlier as well.
I look at it as that they were both hurting from an ambiguous relationship and that now that they have both talked and they both have all the crucial emotional information they NEEDED, they're only JUST NOW moving into a real relationship.
Splendid explanation. Thank you for taking the stage for me.
Still, i am not huge on the second pair but I think that's primarily because their sexual relationship was dropped like a bomb in chapter 4. I would've liked to see more development towards their going sexual because admittedly, it felt forced for me in the early parts. Maybe a little scene on how Zono seduced him would suffice?
Yeah, though Zono DID explain that it was "love at first sight" so he quickly had sex with him. I suppose that's why it's so... Abrupt? There WAS no buildup, it was sudden, that's the story given. Exactly why FUMI was so easily swept along i can't really say, we know Zono's perspective there as love at first sight, but Fumi transferred in to be with the one he loves and it never really gives a reason as to WHY he was swept along into sex with another man despite not knowing at the time that Kaede was already in a relationship. As far as he was concerned, he was there for a single Kaede until the scene where he sees Kaede with his bf and Zono covers his eyes, so it's weird that he let Zono sweep him along. ╮(￣▽￣)╭
Yes. As I see it, it isn't Zono's fault that things get there fast. Quick love and sex happens to me too anyway. I think it was a technical error on the creator's part in this case. Aside from the covers, we only had little signs of Zono getting along with Fumi in the first 3 chapters: nickname and the affectionate approach. But if one is really keen to hide their affair, those little displays are possible. Still, it feels like we skipped a hole then jumped right into the other.
An appropriate build up would have given us a better understanding of Fumi's surprisingly quick decision to accept Zono's forceful advances too. Well, giving in to sex is easy if it's purely lust but for him to suddenly switch his longtime feelings which drove him to survive and then become his very goal to go back to an unstable relationship in a short amount of time needs a deeper look.
He realized at the last second that Yoshirou was in love with him and that he made him attend his wedding. :‘^( I mean, i'm assuming that's why he cried after looking at Yoshirou's face, he had thought he was just "gentle", but realized WHY he was so gentle to him and could only wish that he finds happiness.